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Fatwa issued on Bin Laden

Yay Spain! Dunno why no one else has done this until now. This should've been done from the start.
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Bin Laden fatwa as Spain remembers
Friday, March 11, 2005 Posted: 1415 GMT

MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Muslim clerics in Spain have issued what they called the world's first fatwa, or Islamic edict, against Osama bin Laden as the country marked the first anniversary of the Madrid train bombings that killed 191 people.

They accused him of abandoning his religion and urged others of their faith to denounce the al Qaeda leader, who is believed to be hiding out near the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

The ruling was issued by the Islamic Commission of Spain, the main body representing the country's 1 million-member Muslim community. The commission invited imams to condemn terrorism at Friday prayers.

The fatwa said that according to the Koran "the terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his organization al Qaeda ... are totally banned and must be roundly condemned as part of Islam." (Full story)

The action took place on the eve of the first anniversary of the country's worst-ever terror attack -- which many observers have coined as Europe's 9/11, a reference to the al Qaeda attacks on the United States in 2001.

More than 1,500 people were injured when 10 backpack bombs exploded on packed commuter trains on March 11, 2003.

Spanish authorities mainly blame Islamic terrorists and there were claims of responsibility in the name of al Qaeda. Many of the 74 suspects charged in the case lived in Spain -- but were originally from Morocco, a predominately Muslim country.

But the only person sentenced so far is a teenage Spaniard facing six years for transporting explosives used in the attack.

Royal tribute
Spaniards lit candles, laid flowers and observed a long, mournful silence Friday to mark the first anniversary of the terrorist attack.

King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia led government leaders and other dignitaries during the main memorial -- a silent, five-minute vigil inaugurating a grove of 192 olive and cypress trees, one for each person killed last March 11 and a policeman killed when Islamic militant suspects seeking to avoid arrest blew themselves up.

The grove in Madrid's main park has been christened the "Forest of the Absent."

After the vigil, a young cellist dressed in black played "Song of the Birds" by Pablo Casals, a piece the late Spanish composer and musician had dedicated to peace.

As the dignitaries stood in silence, much of Spain paused in remembrance.

Trains made unscheduled stops at stations, and people stopped in the street to grieve over an attack that cut across nationality, killing immigrants from Ecuador to Ukraine, from France to the Philippines.

Earlier, at the rail stations targeted in the attack, people huddled together and shed tears as memories of the blasts returned. Some left notes that tried to put pain into words.

"Who will give me back my will to live, which died here a year ago?" read a letter posted on a wall at El Pozo station -- the deadliest of four scenes of carnage. It was signed only Susana, a woman who said she was injured when bombs gutted a double-decker train.

As dawn broke, bells at hundreds of churches around Madrid tolled for five minutes beginning at 7:37 a.m., when the first of 10 dynamite-loaded backpacks detonated on four rush-hour trains. Al Qaeda-linked militants claimed responsibility.

Even now, images of Spain's tragedy are hard to bear. And memories still haunt the survivors. (Full story)

A year on, broken families still meet in Madrid's main square to share their torment, and tears.

Mothers like Rita, who moved to Spain from Ecuador to give her son, Jose Luis, aged 11, a better life.

"Our hope was that he would become a professional: a doctor or a lawyer. We thought he'd have a better chance here, a better future. But we were wrong. We brought him to his death," she said.

There are still many question marks, such as who exactly ordered the bombing.

Just three days after the train bombings, the Spanish government -- allied with Washington over Iraq -- was voted out of office.

The new administration withdrew its troops and is urging diplomacy for the future -- a stance more in tune with the feelings of many in Madrid.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/e...sary/index.html

Here's one for ShadowWolf! Maybe its a good thing Muslims are "taking over Europe"?!

Ok... FINALLY. Muslims are quick to point out that their version of the religion doesn't condone what Osamma is doing... but thats about all they do. Its rare to see them publicly condemn what he and the other extremists are doing.

But I still don't feel this is enough. I won't be satisfied until every muslim that claims to not believe what Osamma believes curses his name. Kinda makes you go hmmmm when it becomes difficult to get them to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 Ok... FINALLY. Muslims are quick to point out that their version of the religion doesn't condone what Osamma is doing... but thats about all they do. Its rare to see them publicly condemn what he and the other extremists are doing. But I still don't feel this is enough. I won't be satisfied until every muslim that claims to not believe what Osamma believes curses his name. Kinda makes you go hmmmm when it becomes difficult to get them to do that.

Why should they?

No the question is, why would they be hesitant to do so if they don't condone his practices? Or in other words, why not?

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 No the question is, why would they be hesitant to do so if they don't condone his practices? Or in other words, why not?

No! The question is why should they?! Unless you are being very ignorant and assuming that all Muslims support bin Laden when very few do?

Well if they don't support him and don't believe what he does, then what's the problem? I have no difficulty cursing your name, you mean nothing to me, so the obvious conclusion that can be drawn from their hesitation is that they do feel something. Your next question might be along the lines of whats wrong with that? It gives him incentive to keep doing what hes doing. If you don't say "stop I don't agree" then your silence can be interpreted as unannounced support and fuel his fire. But as this thread shows, they are finally coming around.

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 Well if they don't support him and don't believe what he does, then what's the problem? I have no difficulty cursing your name, you mean nothing to me, so the obvious conclusion that can be drawn from their hesitation is that they do feel something. Your next question might be along the lines of whats wrong with that? It gives him incentive to keep doing what hes doing. If you don't say "stop I don't agree" then your silence can be interpreted as unannounced support and fuel his fire. But as this thread shows, they are finally coming around.

There is a difference between issuing a Fatwah and denouncing bin Laden. This is a very big step but dont confuse the two. Muslim groups all over Europe have condemned bin Laden straight after 11/9

But why should they have to? I'm British, but I dont feel the need to make public announcements every time somebody who is British does something bad to show that I dont agree with it do I? Why should Muslims?

I'm not confusing the two. Im happy they are making this big step but I do think it could have been done sooner. I'm aware many Muslims have condemned bin Ladin. My quarrel is with the ones that more or less hold a double standard by claiming to disagree with his practices yet don't wish to condemn him. The difference between bin Ladin and your comparison to you being British is, bin Ladin is committing these acts in the name of his religion. If someone was going around blowing people up in the name of josh4 I'd want to make it very clear that I have no part in it and wish it to stop immediately. They don't have to, but I think they should. Anyways, it only takes one public statement of condemnation and then its done with. Finally, with this particular case, if Muslims sit idly by and do not let bin Ladin know they don't condone what he is doing, it could mean the deaths of more people. As I explained in my previous post you must not have read thoroughly, bin Ladin could interpret silence as support.

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 I'm not confusing the two. Im happy they are making this big step but I do think it could have been done sooner. I'm aware many Muslims have condemned bin Ladin. My quarrel is with the ones that more or less hold a double standard by claiming to disagree with his practices yet don't wish to condemn him. The difference between bin Ladin and your comparison to you being British is, bin Ladin is committing these acts in the name of his religion. If someone was going around blowing people up in the name of josh4 I'd want to make it very clear that I have no part in it and wish it to stop immediately. They don't have to, but I think they should. Anyways, it only takes one public statement of condemnation and then its done with. Finally, with this particular case, if Muslims sit idly by and do not let bin Ladin know they don't condone what he is doing, it could mean the deaths of more people. As I explained in my previous post you must not have read thoroughly, bin Ladin could interpret silence as support.

You say "it only takes one public statement of condemnation and then its done with" but who do you want to say that? There must be thousands of Muslims who have said that already but thats still not good enuf for you?! What do you want a letter from every Muslim in the world telling you they dont support bin Laden?!

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 As I explained in my previous post you must not have read thoroughly, I'm aware many Muslims have condemned bin Ladin. My quarrel is with the ones that more or less hold a double standard by claiming to disagree with his practices yet don't wish to condemn him.

quote:

Originally posted by josh4 Its rare to see them publicly condemn what he and the other extremists are doing.

huh, now you got it wrong... don't you remember influential american muslim clerics condemning the 9/11 attacks ?

Or condemnations coming from every head of state of muslim countries (except Irak)...


the problem is that your media in the US don't talk about it.

ok so i guess they are. Good.

quote:

Originally posted by malek huh, now you got it wrong... don't you remember influential american muslim clerics condemning the 9/11 attacks ? Or condemnations coming from every head of state of muslim countries (except Irak)... the problem is that your media in the US don't talk about it.

No josh's problem is that he thinks every Muslim supports bin Laden...

Why is silence support?


fatwah

n : (Islam) a legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar; "bin Laden issued three fatwahs calling upon Muslims to take up arms against the United States"

Good example.

Well what I'd say is that to most Musilms it is fairly obvious that bin laden is not acting on behalf of their religion(be as everything he does is in conflict with it, as taught by most people). Thats maybe not so obvious to you but thats your problem not thiers.

If I were Christian would you want me to send a letter to every gay in the world just to show I wasn't an extremist?

quote:

Originally posted by malek huh, now you got it wrong... don't you remember influential american muslim clerics condemning the 9/11 attacks ? Or condemnations coming from every head of state of muslim countries (except Irak)... the problem is that your media in the US don't talk about it.

Heads of state will typically offer condolences and denounce attacks because it is of their country's interest, not because of genuine concern. They didn't want to be seen as an enemy so they quickly put up statements.

I think that in this case at least the top muslims should denounce Bin Laden as a show of support that Muslims aren't for his cause. Bin Laden has made it seem that the entire muslim world is following him and when he issues a call for Jihad against the western world, clerics should step in and say no, we don't want a jihad, and we don't want to follow your twisted religion. Otherwise silence is seen as support for him, especially when he makes calls such as these.

This is different than countries who offer silence, statements, etc because in religion, especially this religion people are such devout followers that they follow edicts from leaders with little though to consequences or their own well being. Such was seen in Iraq with the elections when sunni clerics called for protests and protests happened and now due to their own foolishness they have no say in the government. The same is true with bin laden. He has such clout that when he issues something people follow him and unless high profile clerics step in and say no people will follow his will.

Good job Nat

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil I think that in this case at least the top muslims should denounce Bin Laden as a show of support that Muslims aren't for his cause.

They have.....

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Bin Laden has made it seem that the entire muslim world is following him and when he issues a call for Jihad against the western world, clerics should step in and say no, we don't want a jihad, and we don't want to follow your twisted religion. Otherwise silence is seen as support for him, especially when he makes calls such as these.

No he hasn't how could he? The American media has however.... and obviously clerics haven't supported Jihad.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil This is different than countries who offer silence, statements, etc because in religion, especially this religion people are such devout followers that they follow edicts from leaders with little though to consequences or their own well being. Such was seen in Iraq with the elections when sunni clerics called for protests and protests happened and now due to their own foolishness they have no say in the government. The same is true with bin laden. He has such clout that when he issues something people follow him and unless high profile clerics step in and say no people will follow his will.

I think your making Bin Laden sound more important to the average muslim than he is. Foolish young men might think he's a "freedom fighter" but to the average muslim he makes thier life harder, not easier.

We may as well just assume all muslims are stupid....which they arnt...because they all follow Bin Laden....which they dont...

of course they all don't, that was never assumed. However being the largest religious population on earth combined with a very devout religion based on spiritual figureheads, and what I would call a larger percentage of fundamentalism found than in any other religion on earth, it doesn't take everyone to become a problem. If people see their religious leaders not denouncing what bin laden does, or even just supporting some of the things bin laden talks about, they are so devout that they follow leaders like sheep.

I don't think so, they are indivual people, with their own thoughts. To 99% of muslims bin laden, in terms of religion, means nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Bin Laden has made it seem that the entire muslim world is following him

The media and ignorant people have made it seem like that...

Typical response.

If OBL goes on tv and asks for a jihad, it is the duty of religious leaders to not call for a jihad or whatever fatwa OBL issues so as to prevent those people who would follow OBL's word and it only takes a small percentage of the largest religous population on earth to form a large following.

Some quotes by Mr. Bin Laden himself:

quote:

"To all the Mujah: Your brothers in Palestine are waiting for you; it's time to penetrate America and Israel and hit them where it hurts the most." "Muslim scholars have issued a fatwa [a religious order] against any American who pays taxes to his government. He is our target because he is helping the American war machine against the Muslim nation." "The [International Front of Islamic Movements, an alliance of extremist organizations created by bin Laden] is an umbrella to all organizations fighting the jihad against Jews and the crusaders. The response from Muslim nations has been greater than we expected. We are urging all of them to start fighting, or at least to start preparing to fight, against the enemies of Islam." "it is the duty of Muslims to prepare as much force as possible to terrorize the enemies of God." Under the banner of the "International Islamic Front for Jihad on the Jews and Crusaders," bin Laden endorsed a fatwa, religious decree, to call for the liberation of Muslim holy places in Saudi Arabia and Israel, as well as the death of Americans and their allies. The decree says, "These crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger and Muslims." "We have focused our declaration of jihad on the U.S. soldiers inside Arabia�The U.S. government has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal through its support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine." "This war will not only be between the people of the two sacred mosques and the Americans, but it will be between the Islamic world and the Americans and their allies because this war is a new crusade led by America against the Islamic nations." "Message from Osama bin Laden to his Muslim Brothers in the Whole World and Especially in the Arabian Peninsula: Declaration of Jihad Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Mosques; Expel the Heretics from the Arabian Peninsula." "Our terrorism is a good accepted terrorism because it's against America, it's for the purpose of defeating oppression so America would stop supporting Israel, who is killing our children." "It became very clear that the West in general and America, head of the infidels in particular, bear hate and grudge against Islam and Muslims that cannot be described." "Jihad Is an Individual Duty" The ruling is to kill the Americans and their allies is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it, in order to liberate the Al Aqsa mosque [Jerusalem] and the Holy Mosque [Mecca]... This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God... We call on every Muslim who believes in God and wished to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.

You get my point, I can dig these up all day.

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil However being the largest religious population on earth

where did you hear that?

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