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-- Abortion?


Posted by Subey on Mar-20-2005 17:24:

Abortion?

I'm curious if other nations have "finished" with the Abortion debate?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politic.../966417-cp.html
quote:
The Conservative party abandoned the fight for an abortion law Saturday after four decades of bitter national debate that sparked court challenges, police raids and passionate protest.

The historic vote at a party convention left anti-abortion advocates with no mainstream political vehicle for the first time ever as the party opted to stake its fortunes a little closer to the political centre.


Posted by zig on Mar-20-2005 20:46:

Abortion is illegal in Ireland unless under certain circumstances...If there is a risk to the mental/physical health of the mother...now this exemption causes a grey area to exist in the law eg rape or incest or even somebody who may claim to be suicidal as a result of pregnancy.

There have been many many different attempts at wording different legislation for an abortion bill to be passed by our parliment and as a result we have had 4 referendums since 1983 on the same issue all with different wording,because each time a referendum has been passed by the electorate there has allways been a problem with the wording and somebody has constitutionally challanged it each time,and the wording has been changed and a new referendum held.

So as we stand the last referendum was held in 2002 and so far remains unchallanged but as you can see from my first paragraph a grey area still exists and eventually this too will be constitutionally challanged...so back to square one.

The reality is though in Ireland women travel to the United Kingdom and have abortions(where abortion is legal and only half an hour away on an aeroplane)and they travel in their thousands each year averaging at about 6500 for the year 2003.
So in a nutshell we wont pass laws for legal abortion in Ireland but will not stop anybody from travelling abroad to get one.
A nice Irish Catholic solution to an age old problem....we will allow you but not on our doorstep.


Posted by Subey on Mar-20-2005 22:55:

It appears that Ireland resides in the opposite pole

What about the platform of the 3 major parties in Ireland?
Are FF, FG or Labour officially trying to legalize abortions? I looked around their websites and I couldn't find anything which suggests they are trying to.

Or would that be political suicide?

Also what is the "slang term" for women who go to the UK for abortions?


Posted by zig on Mar-21-2005 00:32:

quote:
Originally posted by Subey
It appears that Ireland resides in the opposite pole

What about the platform of the 3 major parties in Ireland?
Are FF, FG or Labour officially trying to legalize abortions? I looked around their websites and I couldn't find anything which suggests they are trying to.

Or would that be political suicide?

Also what is the "slang term" for women who go to the UK for abortions?


Yes you are correct....Basically it would be political suicide.

The three major parties in Ireland avoid this issue if at all possible,and will only deal with the issue as constitutional challanges occur,it really is a hot potatoe but it is not illegal for women to travel to the UK with the full knowledge of the authorties.The three main political parties would not even attempt to legalise abortion,as there are so many pressure groups in Ireland mainly coming from a fundementalist religious point of view and no party wants to be seen as aligned with these people.

But i think without a doubt that the electorate for the most part are happy with the current situation and i doubt that abortion will be legalised anytime soon,unless of course it was to be outlawed in the UK,and then a rethink on the current laws would have to be reviewed.
But in the UK at the moment that is unlikely,although they are currently reviewing the time limits in which abortions can occur,at the moment i think it is 20 weeks and they want to increase this to 24 weeks (i think ? ) but there is no question of it being outlawed at present.

There isnt any slang term that i can think of......


Posted by George Smiley on Mar-21-2005 01:48:

quote:
Originally posted by zig
Yes you are correct....Basically it would be political suicide.

The three major parties in Ireland avoid this issue if at all possible,and will only deal with the issue as constitutional challanges occur,it really is a hot potatoe but it is not illegal for women to travel to the UK with the full knowledge of the authorties.The three main political parties would not even attempt to legalise abortion,as there are so many pressure groups in Ireland mainly coming from a fundementalist religious point of view and no party wants to be seen as aligned with these people.

But i think without a doubt that the electorate for the most part are happy with the current situation and i doubt that abortion will be legalised anytime soon,unless of course it was to be outlawed in the UK,and then a rethink on the current laws would have to be reviewed.
But in the UK at the moment that is unlikely,although they are currently reviewing the time limits in which abortions can occur,at the moment i think it is 20 weeks and they want to increase this to 24 weeks (i think ? ) but there is no question of it being outlawed at present.

There isnt any slang term that i can think of......

Yea there was summat on the news last week about at what age a baby could be born prematurely and still survive (they think there might be new evidence to suggest this is a few weeks earlier than currently believed) but still, abortion will never be illegal in the UK cos it is a predominantely religious concern and very few people in this country are religious any more


Posted by trancaholic on Mar-21-2005 15:00:

In Denmark the debate is definately gone and over. Today the only party with abortion as one of their prime issues is too badly supported by voters to get into parliament. There would have to be a major insurge in abortion-tourists for the issue to be raised again.


Posted by Lira on Mar-21-2005 18:55:

Here abortion is illegal and there isn't really much of a debate


Posted by St_Andrew on Mar-23-2005 02:21:

In sweden its legal and i have never ever really heard anyone question it.


Posted by Renegade on Mar-25-2005 13:43:

In Australia I believe that the law dictates that women require a legitimate reason to have an abortion, but I've never heard of a case of someone being refused an abortion because their reason wasn't good enough. Politicians have generally been reluctant to legislate or comment on the issue because it's so divisive, so it's been largely left in this quasi-legal limbo for the past 30 odd years.

Now though, with the conservative Howard government about to take full control of the senate in July (they already have control of the lower house, so come July they will effectively be able to pass through any legislation they desire for the first time in over 30 years) a lot of the Catholic ministers are beginning to speak up on the issue and - rather than banning abortion outright - they seem more intent on making abortions more difficult to obtain by restricting access to abortions under Medicare (the national public-health subsidy program), restricting the woman's right to privacy on the issue and so on. Health-care minister Tony Abbot (who has recently been involved in a very public and very hilarious paternity scandal about a child he gave up for adoption when he was 19) is, rather unfortunately, one of the leading advocates of implementing these sorts of measures.


Posted by sensorium on Mar-25-2005 18:26:

In Mexico it's illegal. Now, it can be legal as long as you traditional parents don't find out about it or as long as the people in the neighborhood don't find out about it. So it's legal if you're careful. But it's a sin if you're not.


Posted by ali92 on Mar-26-2005 12:51:

quote:
Originally posted by zig
Yes you are correct....Basically it would be political suicide.

The three major parties in Ireland avoid this issue if at all possible,and will only deal with the issue as constitutional challanges occur,it really is a hot potatoe but it is not illegal for women to travel to the UK with the full knowledge of the authorties.The three main political parties would not even attempt to legalise abortion,as there are so many pressure groups in Ireland mainly coming from a fundementalist religious point of view and no party wants to be seen as aligned with these people.

But i think without a doubt that the electorate for the most part are happy with the current situation and i doubt that abortion will be legalised anytime soon,unless of course it was to be outlawed in the UK,and then a rethink on the current laws would have to be reviewed.
But in the UK at the moment that is unlikely,although they are currently reviewing the time limits in which abortions can occur,at the moment i think it is 20 weeks and they want to increase this to 24 weeks (i think ? ) but there is no question of it being outlawed at present.

There isnt any slang term that i can think of......

24 weeks?! I was born just before that point! That can't be the absolute youngest a child can be born and still survive. I say lower the time limit to something like 12 weeks.


Posted by St_Andrew on Mar-26-2005 17:42:

quote:
Originally posted by ali92
24 weeks?! I was born just before that point! That can't be the absolute youngest a child can be born and still survive. I say lower the time limit to something like 12 weeks.


well in 50 years we can probably save a baby without even having a mom, in that case that would make abortion illegal at all times.

My point is that even tho you can save someone doesnt mean it is already a human beeing.


Posted by zig on Mar-26-2005 22:23:

quote:
Originally posted by ali92
24 weeks?! I was born just before that point! That can't be the absolute youngest a child can be born and still survive. I say lower the time limit to something like 12 weeks.


Sorry i got it the wrong way around....i dont live in the UK.....anyway,politicians are discussing this issue in the UK at the moment.....they are proposing that the time limits for legal abortions be changed......at the moment you can have an abortion in the UK,at any time up to 24 weeks......they are proposing to reduce this time to 20 weeks.....but its still only at discussion stage and no changes are probably going to happen for quite a while...so 24 weeks still stands for now....but having dug a little deeper on the issue,apparently only 1% of the 180,000 abortions carried out in the UK last year,took place between week 20 and week 24.....so are the proposals more acceptable?.....i guess that really depends on your view on abortion.....but i would have thought myself,that a feotus could survive if born at 24 weeks....its 5 months...so it must have a good chance with proper care.....but its not really my call,ive never been in that position to have to make a decision......its a tough one....................................


Posted by ali92 on Mar-27-2005 01:36:

quote:
Originally posted by zig
Sorry i got it the wrong way around....i dont live in the UK.....anyway,politicians are discussing this issue in the UK at the moment.....they are proposing that the time limits for legal abortions be changed......at the moment you can have an abortion in the UK,at any time up to 24 weeks......they are proposing to reduce this time to 20 weeks.....but its still only at discussion stage and no changes are probably going to happen for quite a while...so 24 weeks still stands for now....but having dug a little deeper on the issue,apparently only 1% of the 180,000 abortions carried out in the UK last year,took place between week 20 and week 24.....so are the proposals more acceptable?.....i guess that really depends on your view on abortion.....but i would have thought myself,that a feotus could survive if born at 24 weeks....its 5 months...so it must have a good chance with proper care.....but its not really my call,ive never been in that position to have to make a decision......its a tough one....................................
I still say a legal limit no later than like 10 to 12 weeks, but actual abortion times should really be < 40 days. You never really know for sure, so it's always best to err on the side of caution. Don't let the baby get bigger & bigger...


Posted by Pheobius on Mar-27-2005 21:03:

I agree with what George Smiley said abouot it being a mainly religious matter, but he's wrong about that not being an issue, the percentage of 'religious' people in the UK is increasing at one of the fastest rates in centuries, Christian, Muslim and others included, probably all of which are opposed to abortion


Posted by St_Andrew on Mar-27-2005 21:20:

quote:
Originally posted by Pheobius
I agree with what George Smiley said abouot it being a mainly religious matter, but he's wrong about that not being an issue, the percentage of 'religious' people in the UK is increasing at one of the fastest rates in centuries, Christian, Muslim and others included, probably all of which are opposed to abortion


If there is no arguments except for religious ones, i see no reason to ban it. I mean the religious people can still choose not to, no one will ever force them to make an abortion.


Posted by Pheobius on Mar-27-2005 21:31:

I'm a Christian myself, so it's a difficult issue, mainly cos on most issues I'm pro choice, but abortion is different. I mean babies born before the current cut-off point in the UK have survived and reached adulthood, and not just a few exceptions, there are plenty of examples, and with increasing technology we'll be able to save babies born earlier and earlier.


Posted by George Smiley on Mar-27-2005 21:51:

quote:
Originally posted by St_Andrew
well in 50 years we can probably save a baby without even having a mom, in that case that would make abortion illegal at all times.

My point is that even tho you can save someone doesnt mean it is already a human beeing.

The religious types'll be wanting to ban wanking next!!


Posted by St_Andrew on Mar-28-2005 04:17:

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
The religious types'll be wanting to ban wanking next!!


quote:
Originally posted by Pheobius
I'm a Christian myself, so it's a difficult issue, mainly cos on most issues I'm pro choice, but abortion is different. I mean babies born before the current cut-off point in the UK have survived and reached adulthood, and not just a few exceptions, there are plenty of examples, and with increasing technology we'll be able to save babies born earlier and earlier.


Like i said before, just because you can save someone, doesnt mean that they are a living human beeing. As smiley says, a sperm is a potential baby, hence we should ban wanking, or wet dreams or whatever, but it just doesnt make sense!


Posted by George Smiley on Mar-28-2005 11:48:

quote:
Originally posted by St_Andrew
Like i said before, just because you can save someone, doesnt mean that they are a living human beeing. As smiley says, a sperm is a potential baby, hence we should ban wanking, or wet dreams or whatever, but it just doesnt make sense!

And women should be banned from having periods! And as you can clone a human out of any single human cell, we shouldn't even be able to cut ourselves or bite out nails!!


Posted by Pheobius on Mar-28-2005 23:29:

both sperm and eggs have the potential to become humans only in the eventuallity that they come into contact, a fertilised egg has every chance of being born barring medical stuff etc.



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