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Ethical Questions/You Answer

hey, philosophical question here.

1. Is murder wrong? Why or why not?
2. Isn't murder just an example of Natural Selection? If so, why is it wrong? or why is it right?
2. Is abortion wrong? Why or why not?
3. Is abortion just an example of Natural Selection? Why or why not?
4. If it is an example of Natural Selection, it definatly, in a huge percentage of cases, is not carried out as a means to survive, i.e. hunting prey, dying off because of change in enviroment. its carried out usually just because the mother doesnt want to take responsibility for her mistake. or the father doesnt and pressures the mother. Your thoughts?

Re: Ethical Questions/You Answer

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: hey, philosophical question here. 1. Is murder wrong? Why or why not? 2. Isn't murder just an example of Natural Selection? If so, why is it wrong? or why is it right? 2. Is abortion wrong? Why or why not? 3. Is abortion just an example of Natural Selection? Why or why not? 4. If it is an example of Natural Selection, it definatly, in a huge percentage of cases, is not carried out as a means to survive, i.e. hunting prey, dying off because of change in enviroment. its carried out usually just because the mother doesnt want to take responsibility for her mistake. or the father doesnt and pressures the mother. Your thoughts?

1 - Yes (cos we are sentient creatures, murder is not neccessary for food or survival unless the person you kill is trying to kill you but then that would not be technically murder and also we are apparently civilised)
2 - No (its not natural to kill unless it is for food or survival)
3 - No (at the stage you can abort a fetus it is not a sentient creature)
4 - Abortion is not a natural process therefore it is not an example of natural selection
5 - See above (and yes, abortion is when the mother or father dont want a kid)

Neither question number 1 nor the second question number 2 can be labelled as right or wrong that simply.

edit: and they're not related to natural selection either.

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Originally posted by George Smiley 1 - Yes (cos we are sentient creatures, murder is not neccessary for food or survival unless the person you kill is trying to kill you but then that would not be technically murder and also we are apparently civilised) 3 - No (at the stage you can abort a fetus it is not a sentient creature)

Not a whole lot of "why" in these explanations IMO. They just beg the question as to why sentient creatures shouldn't kill for reasons other than food or survival?
I would say that murder is wrong, because the conviction that it is very unlikely to happen to the individual is essential for the pool of individuals to constitute a society. As to why a society is a good thing, I guess that's a circular question as good and bad are concepts defined by society.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Not a whole lot of "why" in these explanations IMO. They just beg the question as to why sentient creatures shouldn't kill for reasons other than food or survival? I would say that murder is wrong, because the conviction that it is very unlikely to happen to the individual is essential for the pool of individuals to constitute a society. As to why a society is a good thing, I guess that's a circular question as good and bad are concepts defined by society.

Well the 'sentient' bit of my sentence relates to what you just said, and the 'not killing other than for food or survival' simply mirrors other species in nature (ie none of them kill just for the hell of it so no reason we should)

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Originally posted by George Smiley 1 - Yes (cos we are sentient creatures, murder is not neccessary for food or survival unless the person you kill is trying to kill you but then that would not be technically murder and also we are apparently civilised) 2 - No (its not natural to kill unless it is for food or survival) 3 - No (at the stage you can abort a fetus it is not a sentient creature) 4 - Abortion is not a natural process therefore it is not an example of natural selection 5 - See above (and yes, abortion is when the mother or father dont want a kid)

concerning your answer to #1. the reasons for murder always stem to natural mean like in the wild. in war, your "tribe" is fighting against the other "tribe" for control of some territory, just like gorilla groups do in the jungles. or, your wife is having an affair. your manhood has just been violated. another male is wooing your mate. you kill him in a jealous rage. just as animals in the wild fight for a mate.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: concerning your answer to #1. the reasons for murder always stem to natural mean like in the wild. in war, your "tribe" is fighting against the other "tribe" for control of some territory, just like gorilla groups do in the jungles. or, your wife is having an affair. your manhood has just been violated. another male is wooing your mate. you kill him in a jealous rage. just as animals in the wild fight for a mate.

No because in the wild, it is neccessary to do what you describe above either to survive as an individual, or to survive as a species. That does not happen in humanity as anyone can have sex with anyone (how many fat ugly men do you see with pretty women?!) and murder is not neccessary for survival (jealousy is not a natural emotion)

Isn't it true that the only species in the universe that kills for pleasure, for mental reasons, for greed or any other reason "OTHER" than for food and/or survival is the human being?

Or am i wrong?

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Originally posted by tiesto14 Isn't it true that the only species in the universe that kills for pleasure, for mental reasons, for greed or any other reason "OTHER" than for food and/or survival is the human being? Or am i wrong?

Cats?

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Originally posted by George Smiley No because in the wild, it is neccessary to do what you describe above either to survive as an individual, or to survive as a species. That does not happen in humanity as anyone can have sex with anyone (how many fat ugly men do you see with pretty women?!) and murder is not neccessary for survival (jealousy is not a natural emotion)

let me ask you. are u an evolutionist?

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: let me ask you. are u an evolutionist?

Yes why? Do the questions posed in your original post set us all up for a comprehensive argument for creationism or something?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Yes why? Do the questions posed in your original post set us all up for a comprehensive argument for creationism or something?

talking philosophy here

as an evolutionist, are you saying humans are different from animals? are we not animals, or are we set apart from them?

Re: Ethical Questions/You Answer

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: hey, philosophical question here. 1. Is murder wrong? Why or why not?

Depends on the circumstance. If it is done in defence, then it is not wrong. If it's completely unprovoked, then it is wrong. Then there are all the grey areas in between.

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2. Isn't murder just an example of Natural Selection? If so, why is it wrong? or why is it right?

Well, to an extent it is. Stupid and weak people are more likely to get killed than smart and strong ones. Death sentence gets the society free of elements who would otherwise endanger it.

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2. Is abortion wrong? Why or why not?

I'd say yes because the aborted child is a result of parent's actions. If women just happened to get pregnant without outside influence and had no control of their pregnancies, then it would be in a somewhat grey area. Since they are in control, getting pregnant with an unwanted child is their own fault and therefore it's them who should pay for it and not the child.

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3. Is abortion just an example of Natural Selection? Why or why not?

Well, not in the original sense of the word that's usually applied to the animal kingdom but in a way it is. It is basically exterminating people who don't like/want children from the society and may result in a population that is more fond of kids in the long run.

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4. If it is an example of Natural Selection, it definatly, in a huge percentage of cases, is not carried out as a means to survive, i.e. hunting prey, dying off because of change in enviroment. its carried out usually just because the mother doesnt want to take responsibility for her mistake. or the father doesnt and pressures the mother. Your thoughts?

Well, it's not the example of natural selection where more successful units prevail, it's rather an example of selection where less adapted units fail.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: talking philosophy here as an evolutionist, are you saying humans are different from animals? are we not animals, or are we set apart from them?

I'd say we are the same as animals (albeit with a far far higher level of intelligence) and subject to exactly the same laws of nature as other species of animal (in fact I often think about human emotions and human acheivements and see if I can relate them to something equivelent in nature and I always can!)

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'd say we are the same as animals (albeit with a far far higher level of intelligence) and subject to exactly the same laws of nature as other species of animal (in fact I often think about human emotions and human acheivements and see if I can relate them to something equivelent in nature and I always can!)

Alright... let's start with humour... give me an example of humour in 3 different species.

Re: Ethical Questions/You Answer

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: hey, philosophical question here. 1. Is murder wrong? Why or why not? 2. Isn't murder just an example of Natural Selection? If so, why is it wrong? or why is it right? 2. Is abortion wrong? Why or why not? 3. Is abortion just an example of Natural Selection? Why or why not? 4. If it is an example of Natural Selection, it definatly, in a huge percentage of cases, is not carried out as a means to survive, i.e. hunting prey, dying off because of change in enviroment. its carried out usually just because the mother doesnt want to take responsibility for her mistake. or the father doesnt and pressures the mother. Your thoughts?

These questions require too much thought.

1- It depends on whether or not you're being watched. Murder when justified is right but when unjustified is wrong. But there are people that have power and easily seek the necessary justification for a certain murder or murders. It isn't wrong. Only clever. Many different cases for this question can satisfy different answers. And all can be right. So in a way murder is right because is wrong or is wrong because is right. It all depends on how you look at it.

2-It's not that simple. Natural Selection just is. It's not right or wrong. Anyway, some animals kill plants to feed themselves. Other creatures kill weaker and tasty species to survive. People commit murder out of (1) revenge, (2) fun, (2) necessity, (4) hate, (5) money, etc. We don't feed off each other (although there are some exceptions).

2(3)-Abortion is wrong because a woman is missing out on the opportunity of taking money from a man. That's just wrong.
This again requires a lot of thought. You can see abortion as a murder. And murder is wrong because is right or is right because it wrong. There are still debates on when life starts. There is no time for that here.

3(4)-It's not that simple. Abortion is stopping a birth not because it's unfavorable for the 'thing'? to live but usually because a woman doesn't want to give birth. It's that simple. In that regard I don't see a relation to Natural Selection. I rhymed. Awesome.

4(5)-What?

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Originally posted by Subey Alright... let's start with humour... give me an example of humour in 3 different species.

Well the way I think about it is that humour is an extension of happiness or excitement or fun...many animals show signs of this like a dog wagging his tail for example

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well the way I think about it is that humour is an extension of happiness or excitement or fun...many animals show signs of this like a dog wagging his tail for example

but does the dog laugh? does it make jokes? or is it just acting like it does as if it were in a pack like wild dogs are? dogs see humans as a dog pack, thats why they are "family" pets. cats on the other hand are solitary, and really dont care if u tell them to sit, they just wont sit.

there are no moral absolutes, theres allways an acception and circumstances to consider with such open ended questions.

these questions are pointless....

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well the way I think about it is that humour is an extension of happiness or excitement or fun...many animals show signs of this like a dog wagging his tail for example

lechuk... your avatar is a pointer to humour... how ironic

Why do you think humans would evolve to express a "deep belly laugh" If smiling already existed to express happiness?

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Originally posted by Subey lechuk... your avatar is a pointer to humour... how ironic Why do you think humans would evolve to express a "deep belly laugh" If smiling already existed to express happiness?

Intelligence

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Originally posted by George Smiley Intelligence

I'm not sure I understand?

I'll give you an example. I was watching South Park the movie. And the first scene was the "uncle" song , and I was laughing so hard that I had difficulting breathing. Have you ever had that moment? where for a second you are worried that you are going to suffocate because of laughter?

My response while certainly having an "intellectual" component also clearly had a physical component. While intelligence might be a place to look for the "intellectual" component, where should we look for the answer to the physical component?

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Originally posted by Subey I'm not sure I understand? I'll give you an example. I was watching South Park the movie. And the first scene was the "uncle" song , and I was laughing so hard that I had difficulting breathing. Have you ever had that moment? where for a second you are worried that you are going to suffocate because of laughter? My response while certainly having an "intellectual" component also clearly had a physical component. While intelligence might be a place to look for the "intellectual" component, where should we look for the answer to the physical component?

What do you mean? When we laugh we use muscles, thats the physical element...?

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Originally posted by ProDiGaL there are no moral absolutes, theres allways an acception and circumstances to consider with such open ended questions. these questions are pointless....

are you saying all truth is relative? because it certainly is not
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there is a difference between murder and killing as some of you have made examples of war and then murder for self-gain. murder is simply for self-gain. killing maybe applied to a murder, u kill the person, but i apply it to killing as a way to survive. in war, u kill to survive. just like in nature.

so, ill restate question #1, the revised edition.

#1. What would you consider murder in the sense of it being "wrong"? Why is it wrong for a human to kill for personal gain when in nature thats called natural selection?

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: are you saying all truth is relative? because it certainly is not -------------- there is a difference between murder and killing as some of you have made examples of war and then murder for self-gain. murder is simply for self-gain. killing maybe applied to a murder, u kill the person, but i apply it to killing as a way to survive. in war, u kill to survive. just like in nature. so, ill restate question #1, the revised edition. #1. What would you consider murder in the sense of it being "wrong"? Why is it wrong for a human to kill for personal gain when in nature thats called natural selection?

But thats not natural selection is it?

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