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-- Canada is not a democracy

Posted by ShadoWolf on Mar-24-2005 16:18:

Canada is not a democracy

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...4/BNStory/Front

Ottawa � Prime Minister Paul Martin has named retired general Rom�o Dallaire and eight others as new senators.

Former defence minister Art Eggleton has also been appointed.

The list includes six Liberals, two Conservatives and one New Democrat.

It does not include any of the three men unofficially elected by Alberta voters who want to see an elected Senate.

Four of the new appointees are women.

In addition to Gen. Dallaire and Mr. Eggleton, the list includes:
# Jim Cowan, a Martin backer in Nova Scotia.
# Lillian Dyck of Saskatchewan.
# Nancy Ruth of Ontario.
# Robert Peterson, a Saskatchewan Liberal.
# Grant Mitchell, former Alberta Liberal leader.
# Claudette Tardif of Alberta.
# Elaine McCoy of Alberta

Gen. Dallaire, widely viewed as a hero for his efforts to stem genocide in Rwanda, had been rumoured to be on the shortlist, but many on the list have decades-old political ties.

Others who had been suggested as possibilities before Thursday included Liberal stalwarts such as former Alberta party leader Mr. Mitchell and former New Brunswick premier Raymond Frenette.

Liberal insiders have said that Mr. Martin was attempting to mix up the appointments with a few Conservatives to balance more partisan appointments of long-time Liberals and campaign organizers who helped him come to power.

Expected announcements have been delayed in recent weeks as advisers in the Prime Minister's Office struggled to balance out the list of candidates for Senate openings.

The appointments, Martin's first as prime minister, still leave seven vacancies in the upper chamber.

Perhaps no other batch of Senate appointments has been the subject of such drawn-out, protracted strategizing.

Martin aides have been besieged by scores of requests for appointments from people who helped the prime minister during his two-decade-long bid for the Liberal leadership.

While Mr. Martin delayed making any nominations for over a year, 16 of the Senate's 105 seats opened up.

Mr. Martin says he agrees the Senate should ultimately be overhauled to make the institution more democratic, but that won't soon happen because it would require another wrenching round of constitutional negotiations.

The prime minister has declared it a personal mission to reduce so-called Western alienation � but has always declared himself wary of a Senate-reform initiative that's dear to many Albertans.

Alberta's stop-gap solution of holding elections for senators won't fly, say Martin aides, because it would lead to a balkanized upper chamber where only a handful of appointees could claim democratic legitimacy.

After years of deriding the Senate for under-representing the West and for being a patronage plaything of successive federal governments, Alberta started holding its elections in 1989.

Just one elected senator � Stan Waters � was ever appointed, in 1990 by then-prime minister Brian Mulroney.

Posted by ShadoWolf on Mar-24-2005 16:20:

Alberta recently elected four Senators, yet Martin ignored the wishes of the people and instead gave patronage positions to Lieberal Party insiders.

Posted by Moral Hazard on Mar-24-2005 16:49:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadoWolf
Alberta recently elected four Senators, yet Martin ignored the wishes of the people and instead gave patronage positions to Lieberal Party insiders.

Hey, dumbass.... you're right, Canada is not a democracy.... it's a constitutional monarchy. The way we work here is; the people elect the house of commons, the majority party in the house of commons becomes the government, the government makes recommendations to the Queen or in her absense the Gov. Gen. and the monarch acts on those recommendations. The democratic part of this comes at the very begining when yuo vote for your member of parliament... last I checked there was a legitimate election that resulted in a legitimate government.

Posted by ShadoWolf on Mar-24-2005 17:01:

quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Hey, dumbass.... you're right, Canada is not a democracy.... it's a constitutional monarchy. The way we work here is; the people elect the house of commons, the majority party in the house of commons becomes the government, the government makes recommendations to the Queen or in her absense the Gov. Gen. and the monarch acts on those recommendations. The democratic part of this comes at the very begining when yuo vote for your member of parliament... last I checked there was a legitimate election that resulted in a legitimate government.

Where in the constitution does it say the Prime Minister gets to personally appoint Senators?

Posted by Moral Hazard on Mar-24-2005 18:57:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadoWolf
Where in the constitution does it say the Prime Minister gets to personally appoint Senators?

the government of the day recommends persons for appointment to the senate and the crown either appoints them or does not (in almost all cases they do). Interestingly, our constitution does state that the HOC is to be elected while the senate is appointed... why do you feel the government should change this practice? Additionally, as the province of Alberta overwhelmingly supports one party it would seem that it is likely that their elected senators are mearly an indirect patrinidge appointment.... the same would be true if this practice were in place during the historical periods of overwhelming BQ support in Quebec. By the way, who nominated the persons that were on the ballot for potential senate seats and how was that nomination process carried out (I'm not being snarky here, I have heard nothing of the process itself)?

Posted by Matt on Mar-25-2005 00:16:

but according to the neocons, Canadians elect idiots anyway.... so why does it matter?

Posted by Fir3start3r on Mar-25-2005 00:50:

Posted by MarkT on Mar-25-2005 00:55:

The gov't appointing Senators is commonplace in Canada...I'm sure Martin didn't sit in a room by himself and unilaterally do this...so *nice try* just bashing the Liberals again, Shadowolf

isn't Alberta the only place in Canada that does this (and only just recently)?

Posted by tamk on Mar-25-2005 01:03:

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Um....welcome to Canada dood...

The loony left is crazy like that...

i'm not canadian...but i know...appointing sentors isnt a practice of the left, canadian consitiutional practice allows for the appointemnt of sentors...its part of the way your country has functioning...nothing to do with political inclinations.

Posted by baystreetboi on Mar-25-2005 01:21:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadoWolf
Where in the constitution does it say the Prime Minister gets to personally appoint Senators?

Where in the constitution does it say you get to elect Senators?

(By the way, the constitution says zip-all about the position of Prime Minister to begin with!)

Posted by ShadoWolf on Mar-25-2005 04:37:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
The gov't appointing Senators is commonplace in Canada...I'm sure Martin didn't sit in a room by himself and unilaterally do this...

Actually, that room is called the PMO.

quote:
so *nice try* just bashing the Liberals again, Shadowolf

It's astonishing to me that you have so much faith in people who have so little faith in you.

quote:
isn't Alberta the only place in Canada that does this (and only just recently)?

BC and Ontario have mulled doing to same.

Anyway, what's your point? Don't we all deserve a democratic say?

Posted by ShadoWolf on Mar-25-2005 04:43:

quote:
Originally posted by baystreetboi
Where in the constitution does it say you get to elect Senators?

(By the way, the constitution says zip-all about the position of Prime Minister to begin with!)

That's exactly my point. The constitution doesn't mention the position of PM, and yet PM's have been abusing their position by making outrageous appointments and not being responsible to the legislature.

Australia has a Triple E Senate, why can't we?

Posted by Tag on Mar-25-2005 04:49:

I have nothing but good things to say about Romeo Dallaire. If you look at what he has done and do some reading on the guy, like his book for example. I really don't think you could create a more amazing person to be put in as a senator in Canada. This guy is the most moral person I have ever known and can only do good for Canada.

Posted by ShadoWolf on Mar-25-2005 05:17:

quote:
Originally posted by Tag
I have nothing but good things to say about Romeo Dallaire. If you look at what he has done and do some reading on the guy, like his book for example. I really don't think you could create a more amazing person to be put in as a senator in Canada. This guy is the most moral person I have ever known and can only do good for Canada.

One good appointment doesn't make up for eight other bad ones.

Art Eggelton gave an untendered contract to a former girlfriend. He also lied to Parliament about several other issues. It's a disgrace that he was appointed... the only purpose was to stick it to Chretien.

Martin claimed that he appointed CPC and NDP Senators, but none of them belong to those parties. It's all just a sham.

Instead of appointed the elected Senators from Alberta, who did Martin appoint? The leader of the Lieberal Party of Alberta.

Shameful patronage.

Posted by baystreetboi on Mar-25-2005 09:21:

quote:
Originally posted by ShadoWolf
That's exactly my point. The constitution doesn't mention the position of PM, and yet PM's have been abusing their position by making outrageous appointments and not being responsible to the legislature.

Australia has a Triple E Senate, why can't we?

It's no different than the UK Constitution from which our's is derived. The same story happens there.

And yes, the PM is responsible to the legislature. If the MPs at any point lose faith in his / her leadership, they can dump the PM in a vote of confidence.

Posted by Yohan on Mar-25-2005 14:10:

Posted by Fir3start3r on Mar-25-2005 15:56:

quote:
Originally posted by tamk
i'm not canadian...but i know...appointing sentors isnt a practice of the left, canadian consitiutional practice allows for the appointemnt of sentors...its part of the way your country has functioning...nothing to do with political inclinations.

True, and while it my comments my have looked like a juxtaposition; it wasn't.

Posted by b4k-oz on Mar-25-2005 18:23:

*ugh*

ShadoWolf what was your point to this post again?
What were you trying to accomplish?
And why would you do this on a Good Friday of all days?

Show a little courtesy or respect and end this senseless thread now.
Listen to Moral Hazard, baystreetboi and all the other TAs that have posted here already