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-- "Many Germans want Berlin Wall back"
"Many Germans want Berlin Wall back"
BERLIN (Reuters) - Nearly a quarter of western Germans and 12 percent of easterners want the Berlin Wall back -- more than 15 years after the fall of the barrier that split Germany during the Cold War, according to a survey.
The results of the poll, published on Saturday, reflected die-hard animosities over high reunification costs lowering western standards of living and economic turmoil in the east.
The survey of 2,000 Germans by Berlin's Free University and pollsters Forsa found 24 percent of those living in western Germany want the Wall back -- double the eastern level.
In Berlin itself, 11 percent of westerners and 8 percent of easterners said "yes" when asked: "Would it be better if the Wall between East and West were still standing?".
The Berlin Wall was breached on November 9, 1989, paving the way for the unification of Communist East Germany with the West on October 3, 1990. But billions of euros (dollars) spent rebuilding the east have failed to prop up the depressed region, which is plagued by high unemployment and a shrinking population.
The poll also found that 47 percent of the easterners agree with the statement that the West "acquired the east like a colony", while 58 percent of the westerners back the statement that "easterners tend to wallow in self-pity".
The euro is fiat money.
Fiat money systems are designed to fail.
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 The euro is fiat money. Fiat money systems are designed to fail. |
Read it again:
The euro is fiat money.
Fiat money systems are designed to fail.
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 It is called fiat money. A close cousin would be an I.O.U. or for you more dramatic types; a promissory note. The catch is that this note is borrowed on debt already. The common misconception people have is that the money supply is backed by the gold standard or some other kind of real commodity when it is not. Another misconception is that only the US has this type of central banking system when there are others like Canada and the EU for starters. |
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| fiat money n. Legal tender, especially paper currency, authorized by a government but not based on or convertible into gold or silver |
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| Fiat money or fiat currency, usually paper money, is a type of currency whose only value is that a government made a fiat (i.e. decreed) that the money is a legal method of exchange. Unlike commodity money or representative money it is not based in another commodity such as gold or silver and is not covered by a special reserve. Fiat money holds its value so long as holders of the currency feel that they can find an exchange partner for it at some later time. Fiat money, by definition, does not have any intrinsic value, nor is it backed by anything other than the confidence holders have in the economy which is covered by the government which decrees it to have value. Its value lies solely in the expectation of later use. As of 2004, most currencies in the world are fiat monies. However, the situation with major currencies, such as the euro, the United States dollar and the Swiss franc is more complex. |
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| What exactly is a "fiat" currency is a matter of some debate, with a spectrum of opinion that runs from hard money advocates which declare that anything other than a one to one currency basis is "fiat money", to a range of economic theories which hold that market dynamics enforce fiscal discipline. In general, ultra-conservatives define fiat money stringently, and an opposition to fiat money is coupled with an opposition to fractional reserve banking In economics, particularly in financial economics, fractional-reserve banking is the near-universal practice of banks of retaining only a fraction of their deposits to satisfy demands for withdrawals, lending the remainder at interest to obtain income that can be used to pay interest to depositors and provide profits for the banks' owners. Fractional-reserve banking allows for the possibility of a bank run in which the depositors collectively attempt to withdraw more money than is in the possession of the bank, leading to bankruptcy. This is possible because both the borrower and the depositor have a claim to withdraw money deposited at the bank. It also increases the money supply through a mechanism called the ..... Click the link for more information. and governments having a central bank A central bank is an entity responsible for monetary policy of its country (or in the case of the EU, group of member countries). Its primary responsibility as a central bank is for the stability of the national currency and money supply, including interest rates; and acting as a lender of last resort to the banking sector and the national financial system as a whole. It may also have supervisory powers to ensure that banks and other financial institutions do not behave recklessly or fraudulently. ..... Click the link for more information. . Advocates of "debt-free money" argue, in contrast, that money which requires the issuing of central bank debt is a burden on the public. In essence, just as there is a school of thought which opposes any money which is not linked to specific, countable, and measurable reserves, there is a school of thought which denies the value of any encumberance on the government's ability to issue notes at all. |
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 Fiat money systems are designed to fail. |
No. It's not like that.
Money created out of debt is volatile. It also leads to inflation and deflation.
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 Look up fiat money and fractional (reserve) banking. What one of the things the comic book is saying is that money printed is created out of debt. It is also at a higher repayment. Also too much printed money creates inflation. Fiat money has no gold standard or reserves, that's why it's called fiat money. It is only worth what people agree to it being worth. That's where inflation comes in. Also a bank can create money by issuing out loans. You want to borrow 10,000 for XYZ. 1st Nationwide Bank has 100 or even 1,000,000 in it's books. But as far as you know you need 10,000. They cut you a check for 10,000 and you have to repay at 5% over any given timeframe. They now just made 10,500 off of your promissory note on the loan. They can call this loan at anytime. |
Hmm, didn't all the quotes you post say that dollar and euro are not fiat money? 
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| Originally posted by ogvh5150 Fiat money holds its value so long as holders of the currency feel that they can find an exchange partner for it at some later time. |
Does anyone think their is enough old to prop up the Pound or Dollar? Most money exist on computers and has absolutely no real incarnation
If I have 1 gold bullion and go into a wal-mart all I can do is walk out with 1 gold bullion.
but if I go into a wal-mart with a $100 bill I can come out with a watch or TV or microwave or grocerries or a gold watch or...
So in this example $100 is real and gold if fiat.
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| Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Hmm, didn't all the quotes you post say that dollar and euro are not fiat money? |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew Doesnt that apply to pretty much everything? Gold has no "real" value either, the only thing that makes it valuable is that the supply of gold is low and the demand high, hence keeping the value of it up. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus If I have 1 gold bullion and go into a wal-mart all I can do is walk out with 1 gold bullion. but if I go into a wal-mart with a $100 bill I can come out with a watch or TV or microwave or grocerries or a gold watch or... So in this example $100 is real and gold if fiat. |
Wasn't the purpose of the wall to separate two different nations... This doesn't really make much sense. The wall came down with the fall of communism. Rebuilding the wall would just split up a nation. In the US if there's a ghetto in the inner city we don't just build a fucking wall around it because its a money pit and an eyesore. I think rebuilding the wall would be worse for Germany and the EU than it being torn down. It's been less than 20 years. It takes a long time to settle differences when two nations are suddenly thrown together because one's system of government doesn't work due to human nature. I say just give it time...
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| Originally posted by phreek Wasn't the purpose of the wall to separate two different nations... This doesn't really make much sense. The wall came down with the fall of communism. Rebuilding the wall would just split up a nation. In the US if there's a ghetto in the inner city we don't just build a fucking wall around it because its a money pit and an eyesore. I think rebuilding the wall would be worse for Germany and the EU than it being torn down. It's been less than 20 years. It takes a long time to settle differences when two nations are suddenly thrown together because one's system of government doesn't work due to human nature. I say just give it time... |
It sounds like the East Germans don't know what to do with themselves after years of handouts...
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew and i agree it would probably be stupid to split up by now! |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r It sounds like the East Germans don't know what to do with themselves after years of handouts... |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] No offense or anything, but I visited East Germany as a kid, and WOW, they lived well! |
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| They were better off than a lot of Soviet citizens - east was heavily idustrialized |
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| almost everyone had jobs |
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| the economy was strong - East Germany had a moreof "democratic communism" than compared to the Soviet style. |
99% of people had jobs ...
I am saying they were better off because they were more democratic and not abusing the system as much as the Soviet government did. Thats why the Soviet economy was collapsing, because of ill-advised economic planning and mismanaged industry. For example, in 1982, there were tens of thousands extra tractors made, and there was a huge shortage in grain, because the production levels were set too low.
East Germans were very good at economic planning, and some of the reasons they went into depression is that they not only lost much of their business after separation from the eastern bloc, but the merging of the two Germanies displaced and changed the whole east german industry, and to date they are having problems getting back to their pre-89 levels of production.
If you read the origional starter article it auctually says...24% of West Germans and only 12% of East Germans want the wall back....so it seems to me the East Germans are pretty happy....alot happier than the West Germans who are paying for the reunification...
Anyway now that the German government have gotten the rules rewritten on the European economic growth and stability pact to include the costs of reunification going back 15 years....alot more Germans will be happy.........
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium the merging of the two Germanies displaced and changed the whole east german industry, and to date they are having problems getting back to their pre-89 levels of production. |
AW yes a thing of beauty indeed.....it reminds me of a scaled down version of the Humvee...the American must have car....and who says the east europeans arnt origional...but you cant beat the Trabant...no matter what anybody says......
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| Originally posted by zig AW yes a thing of beauty indeed.....it reminds me of a scaled down version of the Humvee...the American must have car....and who says the east europeans arnt origional...but you cant beat the Trabant...no matter what anybody says...... |
there will always be a wall... physically or mentally. fact is that under communism, east germans were treated like animals.
still today east germans and west germans might get along but there is always this east-west mind war.
russians abused and raped east germany by its recources.
with the fall of the wall the west was opened to all the small and poor countries in the east. even though the majority in the east had jobs, you can certainly not compare them with good paying jobs in the west. if the east would have been that way, there would not be millions of euro wasted on restoring the east countries.
the fall of the wall only united the rich west with the poor east to balance the whole society out on the West's cost.
no offense...but besides prostitution, drugs and mafia business, there was no productive plus from the russians or all the ex communist or mid east countries. no matter what the positive facts are, they dont measure up the downfall of the west.
and about the euro... more than 80 percent of germans voted againt the new currency. it wasnt a democratic questioning of the people but treated more like a poll with no political effect.
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