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Sasha & Digweed (Ableton)

http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?t=266236

Will laptops take over sooner than we thought? Read this and decide for yourself.

I have read this thread and have to admit that I am not impressed by it.
Sure Sasha's Ableton will be cool but everyone seems to be hyping it up to do all these amazing things but truth be told not many people actually know what it does.

You don't have to play mp3s or have ableton to be able to do all the cool stuff. Just be a bit creative with your own decks and make some of your own versions of stuff using software and then mix over the top of that. You would be suprised.

To a degree I find that lap tops are a threat to some people creativity especially if they haven't mastered the art of DJing as it is today.
Sure, laptops make sense.

What people seem to forget, perhaps some of us actually like DJing with vinyl or CDs.

If the time comes that I need to upgrade then so be it.

Cheers
Nem

EDIT - Considering a lot of DJs still don't harmonically mix, this toy is not for everyone. You have to understand music very well to be able to handle that much going on at once.

Give it a few months to cool off, Ableton is a big thing right now especially with Sasha and his magic mixer.
Im not very impressed with this, if i wanted to see a guy stand on a stage with a laptop and put samples together then i would pay my
next door neighbours kid 10$ to play around with traktor.

As Nemesis said, you can do very much on your own decks without Ableton. Ofcourse Ableton makes it possible to do certain things that
you would have a hard time doing with decks, but, so what?
I guess im just not into the hype, i dont care if Sasha is playing 3, 4, 5 or 500 songs at once, i want to hear him mix.
I want to see his technical skills, i dont want to see the grin of his face when he doubleclicks another sample.

quote:

To a degree I find that lap tops are a threat to some people creativity especially if they haven't mastered the art of DJing as it is today. Sure, laptops make sense. What people seem to forget, perhaps some of us actually like DJing with vinyl or CDs.

i disagree. i think stuff like ableton throws open so many extra creative doors - we are now getting into the realm of live remixing. the possibilities are endless if your DJ gear is synced to the rest of your midi rig. i can play live synthesizer parts over sets. i can introduced pre programmed loops. manipulate synth lines live. effect all of it with effects you will never find in any peice of DJ gear. the sound warping and creative possibilities are literally endless. im personally not interested in turntablism. if i were ever going to DJ i would bring half my studio gear with me and play virus leads/pads etc over existing sets. id produce extra highhat loops/breakbeat loops weeks in advance and swing them into songs cuz its all midi synced. and it would be a kind of corollary for performing your own works live. im much more interested in how the DJ can incorporate live production into songs. i think if done well it can be amazing. lab4 do alot of this live/semi live and their shows are truly brilliant.

I might just be old fashioned but when i go to see a DJ play i go to see him take records and play them, toying around with an effects unit
is just fun. One reason is because i actually want to be able to recognize songs and be able to buy them later.

I guess im just not much for all of this mixing done in a program.
Its just too much Pro Tools for me, everything blending into each other perfectly.

The Maven was not designed to help sasha use abelton. It was designed to make Sasha using abelton look cool to punters. Rather than boring.

quote:

Originally posted by webbie I want to see his technical skills, i dont want to see the grin of his face when he doubleclicks another sample.

+1

personally i think its fine if a dj uses a laptop, but only if its accompanying a set of decks... from the dancefloor or next to the booth, you see a dj thumbing thru his box for the next track it builds up some excitement and anticipation cus all the while, youre having a good time and you notice "hey he/she is about to drop in another track, lets see how it works out" cus either the mix comes out good or the dj fuks it up... traditional djing *looks* pretty involved, which it is, and that adds to the atmosphere... especially in clubs where the booth is easily seen by all, ppl see the dj workin like a madman and then go nuts along with the floor when the mix goes good its just makes you feel great - like a crowd induced high

sure not everyones there to watch the dj all night, but ppl definately notice when the dj owns...and if youve got the right crowd they'll acknowledge the effort put in the set...if you know how to work a laptop and make it look good then kudos to you... but clicking around doesnt look too impressive unless you have some mad creativity

im oldschool, seeing a dj spin *disks* is what really does it for me...unless the pull something like Future Prophecies and whip out decks, laptop, sax, flute, etc and the dj scratches up a mad set while his buddy is jammin away on some wind instrument with added effx

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative i disagree. i think stuff like ableton throws open so many extra creative doors - we are now getting into the realm of live remixing. the possibilities are endless if your DJ gear is synced to the rest of your midi rig. i can play live synthesizer parts over sets. i can introduced pre programmed loops. manipulate synth lines live. effect all of it with effects you will never find in any peice of DJ gear. the sound warping and creative possibilities are literally endless. im personally not interested in turntablism. if i were ever going to DJ i would bring half my studio gear with me and play virus leads/pads etc over existing sets. id produce extra highhat loops/breakbeat loops weeks in advance and swing them into songs cuz its all midi synced. and it would be a kind of corollary for performing your own works live. im much more interested in how the DJ can incorporate live production into songs. i think if done well it can be amazing. lab4 do alot of this live/semi live and their shows are truly brilliant.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think that Ableton (fine application though it may be) is the final word on that sort of thing.
I too like the thought of doing the things that you mentioned but the point is that I already do from time to time without the help of Ableton. Ofcourse if it helps to produce creativity then I guess I have to say that I'm all for it. I'm probably more against hype than anything else.

Only thing is... I would hate to see anything that made Digweed seem any more... shall we say not so active than he already is like pure valium to me.

Cheers
Nem

For me I think it's all about a balance...

I would hate to go pay money to see a DJ sit behind a Laptop all night and "Double Click" his way through all his mixes, it just doesn't make me feel like I'm watching any kind of real performance...

BUT!

I do think guys like Sasha and Diggers using Ableton is a completely different situation. Seeing those guys have like two Tech 12's, a CDJ, and Ableton all running out to the crowd at once is an AMAZING sight to see and IMO is a real springboard for creativity...

Just my two cents, and I hope it never ever gets to the point where the no decks setup is acceptable. It's like that song they used to make kids sing in grammar school:

"Make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold."

Peace, Cheers,

RJT

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative the sound warping and creative possibilities are literally endless.

true, but unless you know what you are doing it can easily go sour on you

ill admit that i feel threatened by all the new technology but as long as it doesnt *replace* the traditional means (which i dont see happening anytime soon) everythings fine...personally, as a dj i see more value in owning that one tune that is guaranteed to make the floor go nuts on vinyl than as a file... cds are always an exception if its a legit tune...

as long as nothing is overthrown im a happy camper, cus in the end its all about the music and not what its played from as far as the crowds concerned... but when it comes to me and the way i feel about it i can be a nudge

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative i disagree. i think stuff like ableton throws open so many extra creative doors - we are now getting into the realm of live remixing. the possibilities are endless if your DJ gear is synced to the rest of your midi rig. i can play live synthesizer parts over sets. i can introduced pre programmed loops. manipulate synth lines live. effect all of it with effects you will never find in any peice of DJ gear. the sound warping and creative possibilities are literally endless. im personally not interested in turntablism. if i were ever going to DJ i would bring half my studio gear with me and play virus leads/pads etc over existing sets. id produce extra highhat loops/breakbeat loops weeks in advance and swing them into songs cuz its all midi synced. and it would be a kind of corollary for performing your own works live. im much more interested in how the DJ can incorporate live production into songs. i think if done well it can be amazing. lab4 do alot of this live/semi live and their shows are truly brilliant.

that's not really djing anymore though, now is it? that's more like live performace and i think sasha is going more that way even though he's not playing his own tunes. what sasha is doing isn't really anything new. sasha just has so much influence that he can do this with other people's tunes, because people will be gladly sending him anything he wants, like the parts of the tunes, so he can use them with ableton live. it's pretty much all been done before by live acts, but with their own tunes.
and no i don't see this as the future of djing.

I recently went to Crobar here in NYC to see what Sasha was up to with Ableton, and I have to say, i was impressed. But he wasn't DJing. It was a live act, sort of. Guys like Infusion, Grayarea, Nu NRG, Hybrid, etc are doing much more unique things than Sasha is right now. They're reacreating all their songs live on the fly using keyboards and real instruments in some cases.

Plus people have to realize that Sasha using Ableton is not a one man show. I highly doubt he is sitting there cutting up and relayering all these songs. I'm sure he has people who do that for him. And not everyone is going to be able to use a custom made Ableton controller and get taught how to use the program by actual Ableton engineers like I'm sure was the case for him. I definitely respect what he is doing and think it is cool, but by no means do I think Ableton is goign to replace conventional Djing.

quote:

Originally posted by zizack I recently went to Crobar here in NYC to see what Sasha was up to with Ableton, and I have to say, i was impressed. But he wasn't DJing. It was a live act, sort of. Guys like Infusion, Grayarea, Nu NRG, Hybrid, etc are doing much more unique things than Sasha is right now. They're reacreating all their songs live on the fly using keyboards and real instruments in some cases. Plus people have to realize that Sasha using Ableton is not a one man show. I highly doubt he is sitting there cutting up and relayering all these songs. I'm sure he has people who do that for him. And not everyone is going to be able to use a custom made Ableton controller and get taught how to use the program by actual Ableton engineers like I'm sure was the case for him. I definitely respect what he is doing and think it is cool, but by no means do I think Ableton is goign to replace conventional Djing.

this is exactly how i feel about this too. i kinda tried to say pretty much the same thing there above, but you said it better.

Seconly, Infusion, Grayarea and everyone is is really an act.
Sasha, well, he is one man and he isnt really interacting THAT much with the crowd so id rather see him behind a pair of decks working
some vinyl instead of moving a mouse around on a screen gazing into the program. It just makes me think of little boys who get their first
computer and get completely absorbed with it, not knowing or caring
of the outside world.

alot of people keep saying that its possible to do a lot more with turntables (which it is) but I've yet to see anyone other than sasha do something like this with this type of music (prog house/trance).

whats keeping you guys from showing him up? you make it sound awfully easy....

quote:

Originally posted by mikefasssy but I've yet to see anyone other than sasha do something like this with this type of music (prog house/trance).

go see Infusion, Grayarea or Hyrbid for example... this shit is being done all over and times 10. But SASHA starts using a computer program and everyone is hailing the end of the turntable. lol

Grayarea...


Infusion

quote:

Originally posted by zizack go see Infusion, Grayarea or Hyrbid for example... this shit is being done all over and times 10. But SASHA starts using a computer program and everyone is hailing the end of the turntable. lol

yea i know, but a few guys earlier were referring to doing the same thing with just their decks and cdjs. i'd way rather see sasha using hardware than only a laptop as well.

the thing with sasha though is that unlike the already great liveshow acts he doesn't just do his own stuff live, he does it with other tracks, which makes it a tiny bit more special than just "just using a computer program" to run cubase or whatever and have shit assigned to volume knobs on a midi keyboard (which is also fun if you are poor like me )

-caleb

I reckon just buying a CD player and producing your own tracks a remixing is the best way to have a truly unique set and get the crowd going. It's just as good as Ableton Live except you wont get people on your back for using a computer and alot more respect from people. That's just my two cents.

Jeez, this entire thread is one big Sasha bash. Makes me ashamed to call myself a TA.

quote:

Originally posted by CleverName Jeez, this entire thread is one big Sasha bash. Makes me ashamed to call myself a TA.

its just a bunch of guys who are afraid to see one of their favorite artists abandon the decks in a sense... he was a role model for a lot of people to buy decks and vinyl, now he doesnt even use it..

quote:

Originally posted by CleverName Jeez, this entire thread is one big Sasha bash. Makes me ashamed to call myself a TA.

it is? The initial post was basically asking people if they thought that Ableton was going to replace conventional DJing because people on clubplanet were really into his recent set with Digweed at Crobar and basically started declaring that TT's would be a thing of the past . No ones bashing him, just stating that he's not doing anything that people haven't done before.

quote:

Originally posted by CleverName Jeez, this entire thread is one big Sasha bash. Makes me ashamed to call myself a TA.

I friggin' hate Van Dyk and Tiesto... friggin'

...

Now it's just a big "Bash members of the DJ List Top Ten DJ's in the World" thread...



... Friggin...

EDIT: Actually, at 1:59 AM CST on 4/7/05 this thread could officially be titled "Bash the top 3 DJ's in the world according the The Dj List" Thread...

It is absolutely amazing what a 20 hour day and a mild buzz will make you find interesting at 2 in the morning...

wondering how many of the ppl posting in this thread have actually

a) seen sasha play live with ableton
b) used ableton in a dj setup
c) dj'd at all
d) grasped the relation between all of this

having been/done all that, seriously, the sky is not falling.

a dj is someone who researches, picks, plays, and presents music to an audience as a performance. the tools will change, but the audience's desired elements will not. nothing to worry about folks, just modern technology making the scene we love that much more exciting.

I've been to 3 separate Crobar performances where Sasha was using Ableton and yes, I do dj myself.

With that being said, I think we're letting the allure of technology blind us from the actual debate, which is: does using laptops/ableton/etc increase the clubbing experience for the actual people on the dance floor?

At the end of the day, I just want to hear great music, and it doesn't matter if its some track on vinyl that's been out for a while, a freshly burned CDR with some exclusive tune on it, or the fusion of elements from 5 songs at once, if its good music I'm happy.

The danger of all this Ableton discussion and fascination is that people lose sight of that and using ableton becomes some sort of technical competition, as in, people start trying to out do each other, ie."Who can play the most tracks simultaneous at once and have it sound ok?" or "Who can use the craziest effects at the same time?" etc. You can quickly see how something like using ableton could become similar to turntablism, where technical wizardry takes precedent over playing fun, danceable music.

Anyway, that's my two cents: if we all remember that djing is about music at the end of the day and not about the medium, then we'll all be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by zizack ...And not everyone is going to be able to use a custom made Ableton controller and get taught how to use the program by actual Ableton engineers like I'm sure was the case for him....

True, but you can buy a controller that does the basics for a little over $100. That and a laptop is all your really need hardware-wise to take your show on the road. Only thing left is time to cut the tracks down. My brother is experimenting with this same thing.

On a different note, there are may forms of djing. A disk jockey basically plays music for people. We have taken the dj term and pushed it more into the electronic realm of things.. but then again, we seem to frown at djs who want to experiment with technology. We did this same thing when the cd players hit big, and we are doing it now with Ableton and will do it again when the next technological improvement comes allong.

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