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West - what, exactly, is it?

Really, it doesn't make much sense to say there are "Western countries" in the modern world, yet people do. So, since people insist on using such vague terms, I'd like to know what exactly "the west" is.

In old Europe, when Greeks fought Persians and other civilisations situated in the East of Europe, it would make sense to call themselves "West" and the enemies, "East". Then the Roman empire came and, in its apex, it was devided between the Latin speaking "West" and the Greek speaking "East" (i.e. Byzantium).

However, things didn't stop there. America was discovered and, as any map can show, America would be the West and Europe the East, leaving Asia in a rather strange position (unless we consider Europe to be the centre, which makes more sense since our culture is mainly Eurocentric - that would leave Asia as "East", which is what actually happened). Yet, there's no "West Pole", unlike its latitudinal counterparts so, to an American, Russia, in a very absurd but obvious observation, is on the west. To an European, it's not.

So, here come the questions:

1. Is Australia a western country? If so, what about Japan, South Korea and Papua Nova Guinea? They're all in the same longitude.
   
2. Africa is right in the South of Europe. Would it as "west" as Europe?
   
3. If "West" was to be interchangeable with "North", in an economical division, would Australia and New Zealand be left out?
   
4. If "West" means "Culturally European countries", would Latin America be "West"? What about all the countries that wear western clothes, eat western food and watch western TV programmes?
   
5. Could "West" be defined culturally? It can't be symbolised by democracy since totalitarism has existed there for quite a while. It can't be represented by freedom because slavery was quite common till a couple of centuries ago.
   
6. Can the Arabs conquer a region they already belong to?
   

When i speak about "the west" i usually refered to the developed countries in the world. Which would be europe + north america + israel + australia + new zeland and sometimes japan + south korea + taiwan ... probably forgot some but you get my point

But yeah, indeed, it doesnt really make much sense to call those countries west, since they are not really west.. hehe

Re: West - what, exactly, is it?

quote:

Originally posted by Lira [*]If "West" means "Culturally European countries", would Latin America be "West"? What about all the countries that wear western clothes, eat western food and watch western TV programmes?

This is the one that is closest to explaining the way I voted: Any country where the majority of the population is direct descendants of only europeans is a "west"-country. So that includes Australia and New Zealand, but not Japan. And yes, I agree that the "west" term doesn't make any sense. It's hard to come up with another term, though.

I think a more accurate grouping would be "North" and "South". At least that way, Australia and New Zealand are the only two obviously problematic nations.

^^^ A grouping that succeeds in differentiating between what and what?

Lira your confusing the "West" with a geographical term. Its ideological.

Its an ideological term that has its roots in history. 100-200 years back the only industrialized countries were West of the Rhine. The West started becoming synanmous with industrialized. Next, synanmous with democratic. Now synamous with USA like countries.

The West also took on another morphing during the cold war, where West meant west of the Iron curtian and was synanmous to NATO. Thereby including New Zealand and Austrilia (as commonwealth countries of the "western" UK) but not Japan.

Japan is however defintely part of the current "West" (I'd argue it has been so since pre-cold war) as it meets the modern, non-NATO definition whereby to be "western" you must be "USA-like". New Asian countries sit funny, as although they are industrialized they are not "USA like" enough, typically due to their regiemes.

Thats why I for instance voted South Korea and Japan as the west but not Taiwan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_countries

I went for Europe, North America, Israel, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Oz and New Zealand. Suppose thats based mainly on wealth (which I suppose is what the "West" is)

Western Europe and the industrialized former European colonial states.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_countries

Not to worry, I've read this

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Lira your confusing the "West" with a geographical term. Its ideological. Its an ideological term that has its roots in history. 100-200 years back the only industrialized countries were West of the Rhine. The West started becoming synanmous with industrialized. Next, synanmous with democratic. Now synamous with USA like countries. The West also took on another morphing during the cold war, where West meant west of the Iron curtian and was synanmous to NATO. Thereby including New Zealand and Austrilia (as commonwealth countries of the "western" UK) but not Japan. Japan is however defintely part of the current "West" (I'd argue it has been so since pre-cold war) as it meets the modern, non-NATO definition whereby to be "western" you must be "USA-like". New Asian countries sit funny, as although they are industrialized they are not "USA like" enough, typically due to their regiemes. Thats why I for instance voted South Korea and Japan as the west but not Taiwan.

I was using the geographical term to make an analogy ans how that "west" is just too relative. You distinguished "West" from "East" based on wealth and industry, whereas trancaholic chose a cultural approach:

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus This is the one that is closest to explaining the way I voted: Any country where the majority of the population is direct descendants of only europeans is a "west"-country. So that includes Australia and New Zealand, but not Japan.

An economic approach is too "simple" as to say there are "industrialised" countries (i.e. West) and "non-industrialised" countries (i.e. East). Where would Russia, Brazil and Mexico be? Despite of all the social problems, they're industrialised (often having advanced techologies).

A cultural approach is even more complicated. Latin America as a whole shares great affinity with the Iberian Peninsula, which is undoubtly, "West", and would be considered to be "West" as well. Japan, which has had a considerable influence from the US, would not.

A "mixed" definition would be even moe confusing. In fact, check how different the votes are for each region/country.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic And yes, I agree that the "west" term doesn't make any sense. It's hard to come up with another term, though.

But there's no need for such term.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Western Europe and the industrialized former European colonial states.

Why has South America got just one vote if we've been colonies as well?

We too killed our natives and had Africans brought here and Asians wondering whether it would be nice to live here. So far, nothing different from the US, other than the economy

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Why has South America got just one vote if we've been colonies as well? We too killed our natives and had Africans brought here and Asians wondering whether it would be nice to live here. So far, nothing different from the US, other than the economy

Because you are not wealthy nations... really it all boils down to wealth and heritage when defining "the west" today. If you are a wealthy nation built upon Europian heritage and values then you are a part of "the west".

Do you want to be considered part of "the west". If so be my guest and invite the scorn and hatred of those despise "the west". Really, we don't mind if you are hated as well, there's plenty of distain to spread around.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira We too killed our natives and had Africans brought here

some things are universal.... kill those you can and drive the rest into the areas of the county you don't want to be bothered with. We put ours in the frozen north, you drove yours into the jungle, the Yankies/South Africans/Austrailians put theirs in the desert, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Because you are not wealthy nations... really it all boils down to wealth and heritage when defining "the west" today. If you are a wealthy nation built upon Europian heritage and values then you are a part of "the west". Do you want to be considered part of "the west". If so be my guest and invite the scorn and hatred of those despise "the west". Really, we don't mind if you are hated as well, there's plenty of distain to spread around.

All I'm saying is that there's no such thing as "the west", reason why I showed your definition, for example, had that flaw.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira All I'm saying is that there's no such thing as "the west", reason why I showed your definition, for example, had that flaw.

My understanding of the term is that it dates back to the late Roman period.... the eastern empire percieved itself as being economically disadvantaged compared to the western empire, moreover, they resented that the wealth generated in the east was sent to the west in the form of tax and/or tribute.... the term "the west" then became a lable for those of economic power. Following the end of the Roman Empire the term took on new meaning as it added Christian to it's economic description. Today the term essentially means the wealthy christian European (culturally) countries. Don't think of it as a geographical term but rather a historical term.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Today the term essentially means the wealthy christian European (culturally) countries.

Then how come Japan and Israel were considered "West" by 10% of the voters?

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Then how come Japan and Israel were considered "West" by 10% of the voters?

Because they, like most, don't know for sure. If we really want an answer we should be asking those who use the term most frequently (those of Persian or Arabic decent).

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Why has South America got just one vote if we've been colonies as well? We too killed our natives and had Africans brought here and Asians wondering whether it would be nice to live here. So far, nothing different from the US, other than the economy

Hold on a sec.....first of all you want Brazil in the EU...and now you want to be part of "our" west.......

quote:

Originally posted by zig Hold on a sec.....first of all you want Brazil in the EU...and now you want to be part of "our" west.......

Heck, I want us to conquer the world while Shadowolf is not looking

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Heck, I want us to conquer the world while Shadowolf is not looking

Thats allright so as long as its only the world.....id hate to see you deluding yourself.....

quote:

Originally posted by zig Thats allright so as long as its only the world.....id hate to see you deluding yourself.....

Don't worry, I've got my feet on the ground, my head on the clouds and my hand on the mic

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Then how come Japan and Israel were considered "West" by 10% of the voters?

Well, Israel is not christian, but its culture and religion has been a part of european identity ever since the times of the roman empire. Japan could be considered as a western country only because of its economy, democracy, and increased tendency towards western cultural values, but historically, if there's any country that would emody the essence of the far east, it would be Japan.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Because they, like most, don't know for sure. If we really want an answer we should be asking those who use the term most frequently (those of Persian or Arabic decent).

Wouldn't they just say "the Zionists"? After all, Islamic clerics have been known to claim America and Western European countries are completely run by Zionists.

the term has nothing to do with geographical location.

it is a term used to group *advanced* liberal democracies. end of story. if the country a) has a govt voted in by the people b) has a belief in private ownership and c) is in a state of advanced industrialiastion/computerisation, then its a \"western\" nation.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the term has nothing to do with geographical location. it is a term used to group *advanced* liberal democracies. end of story. if the country a) has a govt voted in by the people b) has a belief in private ownership and c) is in a state of advanced industrialiastion/computerisation, then its a \"western\" nation.

Exactly

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