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1 book > 3,000 human lives???

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/ar...source=PA&ct=5#

Flames of hate
By Luke David, Evening Standard

Muslim protesters today called for the bombing of New York in a demonstration outside the US embassy in London.

There were threats of "another 9/11" from militants angry at reports of the desecration of the Koran by US troops in Iraq.

Some among the crowd burned an effigy of Tony Blair on a crucifix and then set fire to a Union flag and a Stars and Stripes.

Led by a man on a megaphone, they chanted, "USA watch your back, Osama is coming back" and "Kill, kill USA, kill, kill George Bush". A small detail of police watched as they shouted: "Bomb, bomb New York" and "George Bush, you will pay, with your blood, with your head."

Demonstrators in Grosvenor Square, some with their faces covered with scarves, waved placards which included the message: "Desecrate today and see another 9/11 tomorrow."

The protest was organised by groups including the Muslim Council for Britain and the Muslim Parliamentary Association of the UK. Their protest follows fury in the Islamic world over the claims in a Newsweek magazine that US soldiers at Guantanamo Bay had abused the Koran.

The magazine later withdrew the article and apologised but not before it triggered riots in Afghanistan in which 17 people died and 100 people were injured.

Former Guantanamo Bay detainee Martin Mubanga told the crowd he had seen a copy of the Koran "desecrated" during his time at Camp Delta.

He said: "This was one of the methods they used, throwing the Koran, my Koran, on the floor in my cell."

One of the protesters called for the release of radical Muslim cleric Abu Hamza. He shouted: "Your so-called democracy will fall under the sword of Allah. The day of judgment is coming."

The demonstration coincided with protests across the world. On the West Bank 2,500 Palestinians streamed out of mosques shouting "Death to America". In Calcutta, India, protesters burned, spat and urinated on the US flag. And in Somalia thousands chanted anti-US slogans.

It's time to repatriate that scum....

I find it funny that they'd desecrate a cross, then expect us to respect the Koran.

1 bush > more enemies.

your doing it all to your self, stop crying.

quote:

Originally posted by Massive84 1 bush > more enemies. your doing it all to your self, stop crying.

After reading that, I can't stop laughing.

Naivete, check that, ignorance is bliss as you have so appropriately displayed.

I guess in your world guile is a one way street, but this perceived US stratagem being the sole cause of these situations is absurd for even the fatuous.

Welcome to the real world, please take a number and have a seat.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf I find it funny that they'd desecrate a cross, then expect us to respect the Koran.

thsese ppl are obviously not very smart ppl, too bad they make a whole religion look bad.

/\/\/\
I agree, its shit how a few hundred idiots can make people believe a religion is full of hate.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew thsese ppl are obviously not very smart ppl, too bad they make a whole religion look bad.

thats what im thinking it seems like the general populous isnt all that intelligent. need to get some good school systems to give the future generation of children a better education

Well there's only one thing for it...the Americans are gonna have to move their embassy up to Oldham! That should stop any Islamic protests taking place!

Agreed, they're not too smart, but you have to admit, it's like the US is constantly asking for it. Invasions, destructions of mosques, then the iraqi prisoner torture scandal, then sadam hussein being humiliated, and now this. Of course I realize there are tons of people in the U.S. who aren't responsible for this in any way, but there's still shitloads who keep giving them more reasons to attack. After this, can anyone say 9-11 was all that surprising?

I�ve been meaning to make a thread on this, so I�m glad someone stepped up to the plate on it. In general, the guy who wrote this, Isikoff, called his reliable source who said he had seen the Koran in the toilet bit in the upcoming report. Isikoff ran it by 2 other Pentagon source, whom did not refute the charge. So Isikoff went ahead and published it, saying a White House source told him. Then he calls the source back and the source says that maybe it was in some other documents and not in the report itself. As a consequence, Isikoff couldn�t verify the source saying it was in the original report cited, so he had to retract it. Then, of course, Newsweek came out in their apology:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7937042/site/newsweek/

To me this looks more like an overly hurried retraction in order to save themselves from the Right Wing Noise Machine�s attack like on CBS�s memogate fiasco. And if I tighten my tin foil hat a bit more, it also seems Isikoff�s reliable source in the Pentagon suddenly had a hazy memory where exactly he saw this comment about the Koran in the toilet AFTER it was published out and the Right Wing Machine put out an immediate blitzkrieg on them.

But truth be told, I�m not crazy about Isikoff�s journalistic standards to begin with. The guy has a pretty tainted past with his �reliable� sources in the whole Clinton/Monica scene a few years back, which of course the Right Wing Media gave nothing but high praises for the fuck�s distortions and lies:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200505180001

So he may have been a distorting fuck all along. Who knows.

But what I do know, however, is that these charges and allegations about the Koran being desecrated are nothing new:

quote:

The Denver Post, January 9 HEADLINE: Nightmare of Guantanamo.... U.S. prison camp in Cuba has become legal black hole, reporter says: "They were punched, slapped, denied sleep, had seen other prisoners sexually humiliated, hooded and forced to watch copies of the Koran being flushed down toilets. Eventually the pressure proved too much - they gave false confessions that the British intelligence service, MI5, later showed to be untrue. Upon their return to the United Kingdom they were released without being charged." ---------------- Herald Sun (Melbourne, Australia), January 3, 2005 HEADLINE: Koran prayer torture claim LONDON -- A British detainee claims he was tortured at Guantanamo Bay for reciting the Koran when talking was banned. Moazzam Begg told lawyers he was tortured using the strappado, in which a prisoner is suspended from a bar with handcuffs, Britain's Observer newspaper said. Mr Begg alleged he had been shaven several times against his will and a guard had said on one such occasion: "This is the part that really gets to you Muslims isn't it?"" ------------------- Financial Times (London, England), Oct 28, 2004 HEADLINE: Four Britons held at Guantanamo sue US government In August Mr Ahmed, Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal issued a 115-page dossier accusing the US of abuse, including allegations that they were beaten and had their Korans thrown into toilets. -------------------------------- USA TODAY, October 18, 2004 HEADLINE: Spy case was a 'life-altering experience' for airman Al Halabi says he did not witness any treatment of prisoners that has now been called into question as abusive. But he says he saw things at Guantanamo that disturbed him. He says guards would purposely mishandle the Koran "just to see the detainees' reaction." ---------------------------- Daily News (New York), August 5, 2004 HEADLINE: ABUSED AT GITMO, FREED BRITS CHARGE "They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it," Asif Iqbal wrote. ----------------------------------- The Independent (London), August 5, 2004 HEADLINE: FATHER CALLS FOR SON'S RELEASE AFTER CAMP DELTA TORTURE CLAIMS BEGG DEMANDS SON'S RELEASE AFTER TORTURE CLAIMS AT CAMP DELTA TORTURE In the report, released in New York, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed and Shafiq Rasul - the so-called Tipton Three - said one inmate was threatened after being shown a video in which hooded inmates were forced to sodomise each other. Guards allegedly threw prisoners' Korans into toilets, while others were injected with drugs, it was claimed. ---------------------------------- The San Francisco Chronicle, JUNE 20, 2004 HEADLINE: THE FILE: PRISON ABUSE; Prisoners have been forced to strip naked -- nudity is a violation of Muslim principles; forced to commit actual or simulated sex acts; prevented from sleeping; threatened with dogs; hooded; given electric shocks; beaten with fists, chains, boots and other objects; forced to maintain painful positions for hours; kept in frigid isolation rooms; subjected to loud music, strobe lights and diets of bread and water; urinated on and prevented from praying or reading the Koran. ------------------------------------- The Observer, May 16, 2004 HEADLINE: Inside Guantanamo Bay 'THEY HAD already searched me and my cell twice that day, gone through my stuff, touched my Koran, felt my body around my private parts. And now they wanted to do it again, just to provoke me, but I said no, because if you submit to everything you turn into a zombie. ----------------------------- The Guardian (London) - Final Edition, May 14, 2004 HEADLINE: Guantanamo abuse same as Abu Ghraib, say Britons According to a source, who has interviewed them in secret since their release, they were initially too ashamed to talk about it, and are only now starting to give details. The source said: "They are embarrassed about talking about it because they feel humiliated. We have had an account that their religion was used against them, that a copy of the Koran was brought in front of them and pages torn out." ------------------------------------- The Observer, March 14, 2004 HEADLINE: World Exclusive: Inside Guantanamo: How we survived jail hell As Muslims, they were shocked when in repeated 'shakedown' searches of the sleeping tents, copies of the Koran would be trampled on by soldiers and, on one occasion, thrown into a toilet bucket. Throughout their stay at Kandahar the guards carried out head-counts every hour at night to keep the prisoners awake. ------------------------------ The Washington Post, March 26, 2003 HEADLINE: Returning Afghans Talk of Guantanamo; Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment The men, the largest single group of Afghans to be released after months of detainment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, gave varying accounts of how American forces treated them during interrogation and detainment. Some displayed medical records showing extensive care by American military doctors, while others complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet to taunt them. http://www.craigslist.com/pen/pol/73978707.html

And most recently:

quote:

Dozens Have Alleged Koran's Mishandling Complaints by inmates in Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba emerged early. In 2003, the Pentagon set a sensitivity policy after trouble at Guantanamo. By Richard A. Serrano and John Daniszewski Times Staff Writers May 22, 2005 WASHINGTON � Senior Bush administration officials reacted with outrage to a Newsweek report that U.S. interrogators had desecrated the Koran at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility, and the magazine retracted the story last week. But allegations of disrespectful treatment of Islam's holy book are far from rare. An examination of hearing transcripts, court records and government documents, as well as interviews with former detainees, their lawyers, civil liberties groups and U.S. military personnel, reveals dozens of accusations involving the Koran, not only at Guantanamo, but also at American-run detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Pentagon is conducting an internal investigation of reported abuses at the naval base in Cuba, led by Air Force Lt. Gen. Randall Schmidt. The administration has refused to say what the inquiry, still weeks from completion, has found so far. But two years ago, amid allegations of desecration and hunger strikes by inmates, the Army instituted elaborate procedures for sensitive treatment of the Koran at the prison camp. Once the new procedures were in place, complaints there stopped, said the International Committee of the Red Cross, which monitors conditions in prisons and detention facilities. The allegations, both at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere, contain detailed descriptions of what Muslim prisoners said was mishandling of the Koran � sometimes in a deliberately provocative manner��� http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...-home-headlines

The biggest problem I have really is when the White House and the Right Wing Mouthpieces attempt to spread their propaganda that this 1 story was the cause of all the recent killings and riots across the globe, which according to both the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Richard B. Myers as well as Afghan President Karzai, this assertion is patently untrue:

quote:

GEN. MYERS: It's the -- it's a judgment of our commander in Afghanistan, General Eikenberry, that in fact the violence that we saw in Jalalabad was not necessarily the result of the allegations about disrespect for the Koran -- and I'll get to that in just a minute -- but more tied up in the political process and the reconciliation process that President Karzai and his Cabinet is conducting in Afghanistan. So that's -- that was his judgment today in an after- action of that violence. He didn't -- he thought it was not at all tied to the article in the magazine. http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2005...secdef2761.html

quote:

"Those demonstrations were in reality not related to the Newsweek story...They were more against the elections in Afghanistan. They were more against the progress in Afghanistan." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/23/i...artner=homepage

But I guess we shouldn�t expect anything less from the White House and it�s mouthpiece propaganda artists, should we?

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Isikoff's anonymous Pentagon official source just got cold feet once he saw the Bushites and Noise Machine pundits go after this story.

Yet more evidence, this time from the FBI of Koran desecration:

quote:

Numerous detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today. The summaries of FBI interviews, obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit, also include allegations that the Koran was kicked, thrown to the floor and withheld as punishment and that guards mocked Muslim prisoners during prayers. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5052501395.html

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I'm becoming more and more convinced that Isikoff's anonymous Pentagon official source just got cold feet once he saw the Bushites and Noise Machine pundits go after this story.

Yeah perhaps, interesting... lets see how this develops...

Maybe we need a real crucifixion next to rile the muslims. And I don't mean that Abu Gharib photo. A pic of Saddam or Al-Zarquawi or even Chemical Ali hanging up there would be nice.


[[[smoke]]]

the koran is very important to muslims, even though most cant quote from it or use it effectivly or even read it. its just a shield for them to go behind when they're attacked. the Kuran says some very interesting things, among these, that all religions are inferior, that people of the Book (referring to the Old Testament, aka Jews) should be respected (look at Israel, theyre really following that one :rollseyes: ) and that women are inferior to men. also, theyre 2nd most holy site, in Jerusalem is covered with curses against people of other religions. tollerant? i dont think so...

quote:

Originally posted by yarzan the koran is very important to muslims, even though most cant quote from it or use it effectivly or even read it. its just a shield for them to go behind when they're attacked. the Kuran says some very interesting things, among these, that all religions are inferior, that people of the Book (referring to the Old Testament, aka Jews) should be respected (look at Israel, theyre really following that one :rollseyes: ) and that women are inferior to men. also, theyre 2nd most holy site, in Jerusalem is covered with curses against people of other religions. tollerant? i dont think so...

Does the Koran say women are inferior? I always assumed that was just a cultural thing (as it is everywhere else in the world)

Anyway, you fluffed up there by saying the Koran says Jews (and Christians as they are "people of the book" too) should be respected then you finish by saying that it is not tolerant (which I take to mean Islam is not tolerant)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Does the Koran say women are inferior?

Apparently not:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/womencanada.htm

Biased but better argued than a simple claim to the opposite (the post by yarzan).

Equally, you could say Judaism has no respect for women...

quote:

Originally posted by yarzan and that women are inferior to men.

uhhh.. no it doesn't. Islam was one of the first doctrines (if not the first) to incorperate women's rights/respect for women. Mohammad's wife Khadija was on of the most sucessful business women in Arabia at the time. That's how he met her.

quote:

Originally posted by yarzan the Kuran says some very interesting things, among these, that all religions are inferior

I'm reading the Old Testament at the moment, and you could hardly say that the OT doesn't share some very similar sentiments.

For example:

quote:

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

quote:

Exodus 34:11-17 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. 17 "Do not make cast idols.

And I won't post the entire thing, because it's very long, but check out Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 7 to see what happens if you don't agree to follow Yahweh's commands as the one true God. Not pleasant.

quote:

that people of the Book (referring to the Old Testament, aka Jews) should be respected (look at Israel, theyre really following that one :rollseyes: )

Not really:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org.../koranjews.html

It acknowledges that Islam evolved from Christianity and Judaism, but that followers of both doctrines have ultimately strayed from Allah.

quote:

and that women are inferior to men.

The Old Testament says that woman is forever to be cursed with subservience to man as atonement for Eve's original sin:

quote:

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Perhaps feminists protesting against institutional mysogeny could start holding up "Genesis 3:16" signs at sporting events?

Also:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

� You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, 'We are Christians.' That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. (Surat al-Ma'ida, 82)

thats in the koran for ya, respect christians...

2.47: O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

Allah (God) talking about Jews and

3.33: Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh (Noah im guessing) and the descendants of Ibrahim (abraham, father of all Jews) and the descendants of Imran above the nations.

what i meant by intolerant is this:

Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them. For you must know that Allah is forgiving and merciful. 5:33-34

Let not the unbelievers think that We (Allah) prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them. Sura 3:178

"reduce them" (Sura 5:34) sounds very tolerant to me

Renegade, I also never said the OT was tolerant to other religions, but if you read the new terstament, it clearly says love your enemy as yourself.

quote:

The Old Testament says that woman is forever to be cursed with subservience to man as atonement for Eve's original sin

yes but it does not say they are worth less than men, just that they should listen to them. in the same way your are not worth less than your teacher, you jsut have to listen to him.

�Men have authority over women, for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient � and those you fear may be rebellious, admonish them to their couches, and beat them�. (The Koran, Women, verse 38)

AND BEAT THEM?!?!?! the OT and NT say NOTHING of violence towards females.

if i forgot to respond to any posts directed at me, please let me know, and ill be glad to respond to some more, i didnt do it on purpose, but i just woke up and i must have missed some.

^^^ I love it when ppl quote things out of context, ignoring the historical context under which the verses were revealed aswell. It's pretty damn easy to quote a few verses out of context and make it look like something else. Do yourself a favor yarzan and go and read the entire surah(and other Surahs related to the same issues) and do some research on Islamic History and the conditions under which tey (surahs) were revealed.

quote:

�Men have authority over women, for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient � and those you fear may be rebellious, admonish them to their couches, and beat them�. (The Koran, Women, verse 38)

For example, you conveniently omitted part of the verse with dots (where it says husbands are to punish their wives if they cheat on them, and the punishment for men cheating on their wives is even more severe btw(not mentioned in the same Surah)).

Your post is very misleading (and I wouldn't be surprised if you deliberately did that, and neigther would I be surprised if that's what you've been taught).

did on purpose? nope, simply a few google searches stuck together in response to some other posts.

left out on purpose? nope, also simply quoted from a website.

for the fact to show that im ont doing this on purpose, i'll quote the entire verse, and we'll see if it takes any weight off the "beat them part"

as it seems both of us were wrong, since the actual verse is verse 34 and not 38, it states (translation)

"4.34": Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

" those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them"

...there you have it

its all here if you want to look at it:

Koran: The Women

quote:

Originally posted by yarzan "4.34": Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

First of all, that's a very bad (and misleading) translation (not just those particular verses, but he entire thing). Here's a much more reliable and accurate translation of the same verse you're referring to.

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, great above you all."(04:34 Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

pay attention to this part:
"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance"

"given the one more strength than the other" -physical strength

"guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct" -i.e. they're not supposed to cheat on you

"beat them lightly" (translated from Arabic) in this sense means like a slap or something less harmful than that, not using your fist or taking a bat to her head. And as you noticed, that's a last resort. I can't find the relevant verses rightnow and neigther am I really bothered to do that, but Islam teaches being kind and respectful towards women (including your wives).

Prophet Muhammad once said: "The best amongst you is he who is best towards his wife."

Point being, you seriously misunderstand what Islam teaches when it comes to dealing with one's wife. I'm not an Islamic Scholar or anything but I have a pretty good understanding of Islam and Muslim culture so I can smell horseshit like your post from a mile away (I'm not trying to attack you here, but the content of the copy paste you made).

EDIT: @yarzaan, so I wouldnt recommend trying to argue about Islam against me. I've grown up reading and interpretting the Quran. You've quite clearly demonstrated that you have a very poor understanding of it.

no offense taken . but, do me this favor, go to any islamic arabic country that is neighboring to me (im in israel) and look at the women there, they are covered up except for the eyes, are not allowed to speak, are worth half as much as a man, and are allowed to make very little or no decisions at all. that doesnt sound like too much respect for me...

could you please post the arabic text, so that i could print it out and have an arabic neighbor or friend translate it for me?

if i had to dress like this i wouldnt feel respected:
(pic i took in jerusalem)

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