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Dystopian Future... You're predictions

I am not a huge fan of sci-fi. However, dystopian portrayals of the future have always been some of the most powerful reads, viewings I have ever had. Brave New World, stands as my favorite, but Farhenhite 421, 1984 and my favorite movie of this genre Gattaca gave such powerful messages.

All of these stories, however, seem to have alternative concepts about what the future will be like, although general theories do arise in all. What do you think the future will be like? What concepts from these dystopias do you find interesting?

Booorrring.

Re: Dystopian Future... You're predictions

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Originally posted by kush paintings I am not a huge fan of sci-fi. However, dystopian portrayals of the future have always been some of the most powerful reads, viewings I have ever had. Brave New World, stands as my favorite, but Farhenhite 421, 1984 and my favorite movie of this genre Gattaca gave such powerful messages. All of these stories, however, seem to have alternative concepts about what the future will be like, although general theories do arise in all. What do you think the future will be like? What concepts from these dystopias do you find interesting?

I always thought 1984 could have been more applied to our societies as well as authoritarian ones! Thought Brave New World's vision of the future was also interestin but didn't think much of the actual story!

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf

Thats awesome,I hope they take over Italy first.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Thats awesome,I hope they take over Italy first.

No thats ShadowWolf's mum covering herself up so her ugly face doesn't scare the children...

I actually would have to agree with your critique of Brave New World. However, I think if you were to summarize the plot there is potential for a great story there. I actually want to write a screenplay combining aspects from these 3 books, as they all have their strengths, but also have big shortcommings. Anyways, I wanted to get more opinions about what people thought of these books and this genre.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf

Haha. Don't know if you meant this as a self-referential joke, but it made me laugh regardless. Thanks.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Haha. Don't know if you meant this as a self-referential joke, but it made me laugh regardless. Thanks.

Listen to your Queen. She's absolutely right.


--�We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally�, Queen Margrethe said.


Danish Queen Says Islam Poses Global Threat

�We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally�, Queen Margrethe said.

COPENHAGEN, April 15, 2005 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) � Denmark�s Queen Margrethe II claimed that Islam poses a global threat and urged government to show no tolerance toward the Muslim minority in the north European country, reported the Telegraph on Friday, April 15.

�We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance,� the queen said in an official biography published on Thursday, April 14.

The queen told her biographer Annelise Bistrup that Islam is posing a major challenge to the whole world which requires taking serious measures to face it.

�We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally.

�It is a challenge we have to take seriously. We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy.�

Queen Margrethe, who turns 65 on Saturday, April 16, said the country could have handled �this challenge a bit better, if we had realized what we were up against�.

The monarch who has ascended the throne since 1972, wields no political power in the north European country but does occasionally give comments on political issues.

Extremists

Danish Muslims fear more restrictive steps to be taken by the government in future.

Queen Margrethe said she was feeling frightened from Muslim �extremists� who have dedicated their life only for religion, Reuters said.

�There is also something frightening about such a totality which is also a part of Islam.�

She stressed that certain response must be shown �and sometimes one must run the risk of being labeled in a less flattering way. Because there are certain things with which one should not be tolerant.�

The monarch said there is �something impressive about people for whom religion imbues their existence, from dusk to dawn, from cradle to grave.�

The Danish government announced last year plans to curb the activities of �radical� religious leaders, a measure seen as specifically targeting imams.

The rules oblige religious leaders to be financially self-sufficient, speak Danish and respect Western values or risk being declared persona non grata.

Integration

The monarch said immigrants in the Nordic country should learn the Danish language in order to easily integrate into society.

She maintained �it is wise to make demands on the language. We should not be content with living next to each other. We should rather live together.�

Many newcomers do not learn Danish and unemployment rates among them is still much higher than among Danes, as are crime rates.

Immigrants make up about 8% of Denmark's 5.4 million -- about a third of them come from other EU countries or North America.

Among the immigrants is Margrethe's daughter-in-law, the very popular Crown Princess Mary, who is from Australia.

But Denmark has cracked down on migration in the past three years and the anti-immigrant Danish People's Party, an ally of the center-right government, has pushed through laws making it harder to bring in foreign spouses or qualify for asylum.

Danish Muslims - estimated at 170,000 or around 3 per cent of Denmark's 5.4 million - sounded the alarms that much more restrictive steps would be taken by the government in future.

Islam is Denmark's second largest religion after the Lutheran Protestant Church, which is actively followed by four-fifths of the country's population.

I just lost all my respect for the danish queen (not that i had any before but still )

ShadoWolf: She's not my Queen. She's the Queen of Denmark - I don't really have much emotional attachment to her and her family. I'm not a royalist. Their weddings and birthdays provide a lot of old people with something to talk about while they wait to die in the nursing homes, though. And Denmark gets good business relations through their visits abroad. So I'm not an anti-royalist either.

From the actual quotes in the article, I disagree with only one:

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf The monarch said there is �something impressive about people for whom religion imbues their existence, from dusk to dawn, from cradle to grave.�

I don't find religious people impressive - I feel only contempt and sadness for them.

But from what the Queen actually have said, there's a loooong way to your sentiments on "invasions" in Europe. She spoke out on the incompatibility of religious fanaticism and Danish culture and tradition, including the pillars of democracy and enlightement, and need for us to hold onto those even when that means that we need to be political uncorrect, in a period were the public debate in Denmark revolved around political correctness/tolerance of other cultures(* see below). What she is not doing is to condemn Islam as a religion, nor does she think that there's a global conspiracy among muslims to take over Europe through immigration.

As to your comment on "listening to my Queen": Even though I agree with you that militant/fundamentalist Islam has no place in the societies of Europe (because of its stated wish for theocracy), I do not extrapolate into the lunacy that seems to have grabbed you. Further I don't see the same need for action that most of your posts seem to call out for. In Denmark we have laws defining exactly what we, as a society, can accept (e.g. killing someone is illegal even if your cleric told you to/your cultural background commends it), and we punish those who won't abide by them. Hard.

*: The comments followed the killing of the Dutch moviemaker who made the Islam-movie and the death threats against the screenwriter of said movie. At that point our PM (in his role as leader of the Danish liberal party) gave the "Freedom" award to the screenwriter (in absentia) to show support of freedom of speech. That triggered an outrage by Danish Imams, who clearly thought that creating such a movie should be illegal. Further, in the same period a former detainee of Guantanamo Bay stated on Danish television that it was "ok" to kill the Danish PM, because Denmark was "at war with muslims everywhere" (Denmark took part in the invasion of Iraq).

So you agree with all these quotes?

quote:

�We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance,� �We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally. �It is a challenge we have to take seriously. We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy.�

The problem i have with it is that she refers islam, not extreame islam. I would say there is a huge difference, there is no problem with most muslims, there are just the most extreame ones that we have to "watch out for". Saying things like that just makes ppl generalise even more and is very dangerous imo.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew The problem i have with it is that she refers islam, not extreame islam. I would say there is a huge difference, there is no problem with most muslims, there are just the most extreame ones that we have to "watch out for". Saying things like that just makes ppl generalise even more and is very dangerous imo.

Yes, you're right. However, I think that by "Islam" she's referring to the organized part of the religion in Denmark (i.e. the imams), which (as I tried to hint at) was making excuses for people like the Guantanamo Bay detainee and the killing of the Dutch movie director. Only few individual muslims raised their voice in defense of freedom of speech and renouncement of threats against Denmark - the influential imams did not, and should IMO therefore be seen as in opposition to the values that the Danish society is built on.

EDIT: I did a quick investiagation of the matters described above, and it seems like one imam actually did renounce the ramblings of the Guantanamo Bay detainee, only not in a very clear way. Anyway, ought to be mentioned, I think.

It also ought to be mentioned that the thread is officially hijacked.

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Originally posted by kush paintings It also ought to be mentioned that the thread is officially hijacked.

Haha. Blame ShadoWolf - he started the derailment. Furthermore, he's used to being blamed for all things bad in this forum.

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Originally posted by kush paintings What do you think the future will be like? What concepts from these dystopias do you find interesting?

I haven't read the books, so I can't comment on your last question. As to the first: I find it hard to imagine what the future will be like - and I think that it is mentally unsound to come up with a guess (it's the first step down the path to being a lunatic doomsday prophet).

Well there is the lunatic doomsday prophet and then there are people who make a hypothesis based on rising trends we see in society. For example, I don't know if you are familiar with the theory of the McDonaldization of society, based on Marxism, but it states that captilalism will ultimately lead to the alienation of workers and consumers in society. This theory is well supported with examples in the workplace today. It would not be unreasoable to believe that this trend will only continue to grow in the future, as capitalism spreads throughout the global economy. That is one very basic prediction, that I don't believe sounds anything like a doomsday prophet, rather a worried observer. Keep in mind I'm not asking for end of the world scenerios, simply what will society be like.

I think there's a long way from stating that McDonaldization is probable to a shot at "how society would be like". To answer that last part you also need to make up your mind on a lot of other issues, such as
- will there continue to be countries?
- how will pollution affect daily life?
- will there be democracy?
- how will humankind deal with resource shortage?
- (most important) will we have flying cars?
and so forth. While I have vague expectations on each of them, they are so riddled with uncertainty and lack of details, that they do not add up to a full image of how society would be like.

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Originally posted by Shakka Booorrring.

Shakka! Thats so unlike you. Now apologize and go back to ignoring threads you don't find interest in.

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Originally posted by josh4 Shakka! Thats so unlike you. Now apologize and go back to ignoring threads you don't find interest in.

Lol. This thread has evolved. The topic starter sounded like nothing more than fishing around in some cliche "utopian" type books/films. Please carry on with my deepest apologies!

Well Shakka after crying myself to sleep last night, I have regrouped and tried to give this thread more direction. I believe the whole European Union concept is interesting to look at, when considering what will future countries be like. I believe there will be far less countries in the future, although it may not even be neccesary, as McDonaldization, that is the product you get in Bangledesh is the same in New York, will not even make eliminating official borders neccesary. What I am most fascinated with, however, is who will be the enemy of the future. What intrigues me about all of these dystopian books is that the enemy is always unseen, and most if not all of the civilians don't have any idea what the progress is in the wars (always constant) is, other than what propaganda is fed to them. I can see this happening with the war on terror. It transforms into this thing where the enemy is no longer seen, but the government instills fear in the people to gain more and more power.

@St_Andrew: Another example of how "official" Islam in Denmark goes against the ideals which our society builds on:

From Danish Radio

quote:

Politicians reject Imam's proposal of blood money Integration Minister, Rikke Hvilsh�j, has rejected a proposal from Imam Abu Laban that blood money be paid to the family of a man who was killed in N�rrebro last weekend and whose funeral takes place today. Since the shooting of the 24 year old and the wounding of his older brother, there has been much speculation among police and in the press about when revenge would be taken. But according to the Imam, who is conducting the funeral ceremony today, the thirst for revenge could be cooled if 200,000 kroner were paid either by the family of the doorman who fired the shots or by the Islamic community. He said the practice of paying blood money to the family of a deceased person was normal in Muslim societies. Rikke Hvilsh�j says such action could harm the entire integration process in Denmark.

Gangs of young non-integrated immigrants are fighting over the drug market, and they apparently use quite drastic measures to weed out competition. Last week a bouncer and some other guy was chased down a blind alley by a bunch of young immigrants, known for their involvement in the drug scene, and the bouncer shot two of them in what he claims is self defence. In Denmark we deal with things like that by arresting the bouncer and putting him on trial. Not by having his family pay money to the family of the slain boy. I think these sorts of suggestions for modification of the Danish society, are what the Queen is alluding to.

okey wtf this was suppose to be about future governments like the ones shown in 1984 and starship troopers. Europeans shouldnt be worried abut the growth of islam in thier areas. I think in some 50yrs Islam will be the religion with the most ppl following it and most of the muslims will be in Africa if any1 should be concerned about the evil muslims it shoudl the africans becasue catholisicm is big and them two will not get along and they will end up fighting oneanother(here we go again another FUCKING crusade). Anyways that comment made by that Danish queen what a fucking ignorant bitch. Most ppl need to be educated that Islam is not a violent religion.

And in conclusion to my blabbering i will have to say this Religion like conspiracie theories is something for the weak to believe in because they are lonely

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic @St_Andrew: Another example of how "official" Islam in Denmark goes against the ideals which our society builds on: From Danish Radio Gangs of young non-integrated immigrants are fighting over the drug market, and they apparently use quite drastic measures to weed out competition. Last week a bouncer and some other guy was chased down a blind alley by a bunch of young immigrants, known for their involvement in the drug scene, and the bouncer shot two of them in what he claims is self defence. In Denmark we deal with things like that by arresting the bouncer and putting him on trial. Not by having his family pay money to the family of the slain boy. I think these sorts of suggestions for modification of the Danish society, are what the Queen is alluding to.

I see what you mean. Of course basic values like that should never be compromised. But really, if you did a poll in the muslim community, im pretty sure you would get an overhelming support of putting him on trial rather than paying money to the victims. Its kinda like the pope saying that birth control is wrong, yet most catholics would use it.

But when the queen say stuff like that, it really hurts the whole muslim community a lot, of which the great majority is great ppl with reasonable values (at least thats my impression of all the muslim ppl i know). So I would say that generalizing comments like that is as big or bigger threat to our society than islam itself.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew I see what you mean. Of course basic values like that should never be compromised. But really, if you did a poll in the muslim community, im pretty sure you would get an overhelming support of putting him on trial rather than paying money to the victims. Its kinda like the pope saying that birth control is wrong, yet most catholics would use it.

I agree with you totally on regular street-level muslims, but still believe that there's a reason for the Queen consistently talking about "Islam" rather than "muslims". I have several muslim friends myself, and they're all secular. However, the "official" heads of their religion in Denmark are fundamentalist nutters. The same cannot be said about the top figures of the main religion (Protestantism), which have accepted that Christianity (while having provided a basic fundament of humanity) has no influence on todays politics. Similarly the heads of Catholicism, Judaeism, and other relatively large religions, do not interfere in the debate about the political aspects of the Danish society today. They have so far yet to denounce psycho behaviour of their fellow believers, but then again there has not been any major religiously motivated law-breaking in Denmark by these believers. In fact, the only religions I can think of, which has had followers doing bad things, are Satanism, Jehova's witnesses, and Islam. And of these three, only Islam is supposedly a modern, open, and peaceful religion.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew But when the queen say stuff like that, it really hurts the whole muslim community a lot, of which the great majority is great ppl with reasonable values (at least thats my impression of all the muslim ppl i know). So I would say that generalizing comments like that is as big or bigger threat to our society than islam itself.

I would agree, if anyone would uncritically take the Queen's statements as basis of their own belief system. However, the only Danes who really worship the royal family, are the elderly, and they are generally the most racist people in Denmark anyway. So I think the damage is limited. However, part of the agreement between the royal family and Denmark, is that it's members are not allowed to publicly comment on political issues, so she should have kept her mouth shut.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I agree with you totally on regular street-level muslims, but still believe that there's a reason for the Queen consistently talking about "Islam" rather than "muslims". I have several muslim friends myself, and they're all secular. However, the "official" heads of their religion in Denmark are fundamentalist nutters. The same cannot be said about the top figures of the main religion (Protestantism), which have accepted that Christianity (while having provided a basic fundament of humanity) has no influence on todays politics. Similarly the heads of Catholicism, Judaeism, and other relatively large religions, do not interfere in the debate about the political aspects of the Danish society today. They have so far yet to denounce psycho behaviour of their fellow believers, but then again there has not been any major religiously motivated law-breaking in Denmark by these believers. In fact, the only religions I can think of, which has had followers doing bad things, are Satanism, Jehova's witnesses, and Islam. And of these three, only Islam is supposedly a modern, open, and peaceful religion.

Again, i see what you mean. I think the main reason for this is that the immans would come to societies where religion still have influence on politics (which it doesnt in scandiavia). So its a big change for them to stfu about politics. Kinda like if a whole bunch of fundies moved from the states to denmark, then christianity would be a threat to the danish society, no? It's not the religion's fault per se (not more than any other religion anyway), but rather how some ppl interpret it. Im pretty sure you agree with this, but my point is that its stupid to blame islam as a threat to our society, when its really only some fundies that are the threat. So (okay fuck me for being so politically correct, but sometimes it actually makes a different) instead of stating islam as the problem, it would be better to say religious fundies. Cause really, i know ppl who hear this too often, and soon they think that every muslim is like this, and that they have to be affraid of muslims comming into societ a la 'the muslim invasion'. That is also a threat to the society imo, we live in a global world, that should not only count for trade, but also for ppl.

quote:

I would agree, if anyone would uncritically take the Queen's statements as basis of their own belief system. However, the only Danes who really worship the royal family, are the elderly, and they are generally the most racist people in Denmark anyway. So I think the damage is limited. However, part of the agreement between the royal family and Denmark, is that it's members are not allowed to publicly comment on political issues, so she should have kept her mouth shut.

yes, again, i agree (lol in fact i think we agree on pretty much everything here ), but it's still a bad thing to say of the queen, who as you said should be politically neutral. She might refer to islam instead of muslims, but the difference is fine, and it doesnt really make a difference since muslims supposedly follows islam. So due to this stupid statement i lost a lot of respect of the danish queen. Which is what we are argue if that was right or wrong of me?

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