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-- Holland: 63% NO
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Holland: 63% NO

Exit poll.

whats wrong with it

Stupid Dutch.
Hope this won't badly affect the worth of the Euro, too.

Honestly though, its hard to blame anyone who is voting against the constitution.

Just reading a couple passage of the thing and it reads ridicliously.
What is for sure is these European Union founders are nothing lie the founding fathers and framers of the US constitution.

They EU framers seem to ignore much of the wide-held political philosophy of our time and offer no protections to the member-nations form the EU nor to member-nation citizens from the EU. Very dangerous.


I guess you can thank the failure of the EU constitution on the success of European primary education

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Just reading a couple passage of the thing and it reads ridicliously.

why?

quote:

What is for sure is these European Union founders are nothing lie the founding fathers and framers of the US constitution.

you cant really compare the two, since its still not raelly a constitution, but more like a treaty...

and yeah, fucking dutch

Yeah, she looks like she's got it all figured out...

btw, as someone said in the swedish forum, doesnt the dutch prime minister look exactly like harry potter?



too bad he couldnt use his magic this time tho...

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew why?[

Well namely the absense of a bill of rights and the fact that it is ridicilously long and bloated!


Rights of a Citizen:

quote:

Part I Title II Article I-10 Citizenship of the Union 1. Every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship and shall not replace it. 2. Citizens of the Union shall enjoy the rights and be subject to the duties provided for in the Constitution. They shall have: (a) the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States; (b) the right to vote and to stand as candidates in elections to the European Parliament and in municipal elections in their Member State of residence, under the same conditions as nationals of that State; (c) the right to enjoy, in the territory of a third country in which the Member State of which they are nationals is not represented, the protection of the diplomatic and consular authorities of any Member State on the same conditions as the nationals of that State; (d) the right to petition the European Parliament, to apply to the European Ombudsman, and to address the institutions and advisory bodies of the Union in any of the Constitution's languages and to obtain a reply in the same language. These rights shall be exercised in accordance with the conditions and limits defined by the Constitution and by the measures adopted thereunder.

Not much for freedom or religion, press, due process, etc. is it?

But lets not forget the children!!

quote:

Part II Title III Article II-84 The rights of the child 1. Children shall have the right to such protection and care as is necessary for their well-being. They may express their views freely. Such views shall be taken into consideration on matters which concern them in accordance with their age and maturity. 2. In all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions, the child's best interests must be a primary consideration. 3. Every child shall have the right to maintain on a regular basis a personal relationship and direct contact with both his or her parents, unless that is contrary to his or her interests.

WTF??? Sorry, I mean WTF!!!????

quote:

Part II TITLE III EQUALITY Article II-80 Equality before the law Everyone is equal before the law.

Whippy! I guess this means due process?

quote:

Part II Title III EQUALITY Article II-83 Equality between women and men Equality between women and men must be ensured in all areas, including employment, work and pay. The principle of equality shall not prevent the maintenance or adoption of measures providing for specific advantages in favour of the under-represented sex.

Well I'm glad the EU's not above ignoring equality when it favors the unequal i.e. Screw you Netherlands! We will force you to have affermative action whether your want it, think its right, or not!

More:

quote:

Part II Title IV Article II-89 Right of access to placement services Everyone has the right of access to a free placement service.

I wish I could join the EU! I have to pay to place an ad in the newspaper in the USA

At least I have access to craigslist, thats free....


And this is just taken out of a couple minutes reading the stuff.

The sad part is, if I actually wanted to read the whole EU constitution it would take me a week. If I wanted to actually understand it, it would take me months.

If I wanted to read the whole USA constitution, it would take me an hour, if I wanted to understand it, it would take me an hour.

I mean, the thing is ridicilous, I never thought I would see a treatie and a constitution no less! that makes the UN Decleration of Human Rights look like the Treaty of Versaille.

So it ended up being 61.9% against. On the bright side Latvia just ratified the constitution today.

I wonder how, now after Nerherlands and France said "no", EU leaders called for a crisis meeting; the people have spoken = a true crisis

Hmmm I hadn't realised it was 325 pages long. Skimming through it, it does seem like a rule book rather than an enumeration of rights. Oh well ... whatever floats the EU's boat. Although I'd hate to do constitutional research on that monstrosity.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Hmmm I hadn't realised it was 325 pages long. Skimming through it, it does seem like a rule book rather than an enumeration of rights. Oh well ... whatever floats the EU's boat. Although I'd hate to do constitutional research on that monstrosity.

Ya ridicilious isn't it?!

I mean, all you have to describe is how the government is to work, and the protections to limit th government's power. That's it, you don't tell it what to do.

"No death penatly under any circumstances whatsoever"
"Don't abuse the elderly"

Dud, wtf?! Seriously. The Europeans are crazy, they don't deserve to have a Union after writing such a piece of shit. Actually thats not right, the constitution isn't a piece of shit, but just about the only benifitial usage of the consitution I can envision will be to wipe one's ass with it (hey better then cardboard, no Georegy?!).

Any union based on such an intrinsictly detailed constitution is bound to either fail or simply be completely ineffective.

Oh well, was nice knowing you EU while you lasted...

All the sheep in Denmark has taken another shift in opinion


Stupid Danes.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic All the sheep in Denmark has taken another shift in opinion Stupid Danes.

You mean smart, no?

And stop advertising the fact the Denmark has a lot of sheep, you've done already to much to try and convience St. Andrew of its superiority to Sweden, and this is well just sleazy.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic All the sheep in Denmark has taken another shift in opinion Stupid Danes.

Yup. You might as well change that flag to American .

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew btw, as someone said in the swedish forum, doesnt the dutch prime minister look exactly like harry potter? too bad he couldnt use his magic this time tho...

When u search google for "raar kapsel" (dutch for "weird haircut") he's the first thing you'll see

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Well namely the absense of a bill of rights and the fact that it is ridicilously long and bloated!

again THIS IS NOT LITERALLY A CONSTITUTION!!! its a treaty, its kinda complicated...

quote:

Rights of a Citizen:

those were the rights we have as a citizen of the union, those rights are not obvious for a block of countries like the EU, since its not a single state.

quote:

Not much for freedom or religion, press, due process, etc. is it?

well, if you would have read it more carefully you would have seen that there is. this are the rights of any citizen:

-Human dignity
-Right to life
-Right to integrity of the person
-Prohibition of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment
-Prohibition of slavery and forced labour
-Right to liberty and security
-Respect for private and family life
-Protection of personal data
-Right to marry and right to found a family
-Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
-Freedom of expression and information
-Freedom of assembly and of association
-Freedom of the arts and sciences
-Right to education
-Freedom to choose an occupation and right to engage in work
-Freedom to conduct a business
-Right to property
-Right to asylum
-Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition
-Equality before the law
-Non-discrimination
-Cultural, religious and linguistic diversity
-Equality between men and women
-The rights of the child
-The rights of the elderly
-Integration of persons with disabilities
-Right of collective bargaining and action
-Right of access to placement services
-Protection in the event of unjustified dismissal
-Fair and just working conditions
-Prohibition of child labour and protection of young people at work
-Family and professional life
-Social security and social assistance
-Health care
-Access to services of general economic interest
-Environmental protection
-Consumer protection
-Right to vote and to stand as a candidate at elections to the
European Parliament
-Right to vote and to stand as a candidate at municipal elections
-Right to good administration
-Right of access to documents
-European Ombudsman
-Right to petition
-Freedom of movement and of residence
-Diplomatic and consular protection
-Right to an effective remedy and to a fair trial
-Presumption of innocence and right of defence
-Principles of legality and proportionality of criminal offences and penalties
-Right not to be tried or punished twice in criminal proceedings for the same criminal offence

So those rights are not enough for ya?

quote:

But lets not forget the children!! WTF??? Sorry, I mean WTF!!!????

yes, the european union is terrible, we actually give our youth rights

quote:

Well I'm glad the EU's not above ignoring equality when it favors the unequal i.e. Screw you Netherlands! We will force you to have affermative action whether your want it, think its right, or not!

I actually agree with you here, the last paragraph should been taken away.

quote:

I wish I could join the EU! I have to pay to place an ad in the newspaper in the USA

actually i have no idea what means with this, but im sure its good

quote:

And this is just taken out of a couple minutes reading the stuff.

you clearly dont get the european point of view, we see our rights as different things than yours...

quote:

The sad part is, if I actually wanted to read the whole EU constitution it would take me a week. If I wanted to actually understand it, it would take me months. If I wanted to read the whole USA constitution, it would take me an hour, if I wanted to understand it, it would take me an hour.

for many reasons this is a lot more complicated, not necisarily a bad thing.]

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic All the sheep in Denmark has taken another shift in opinion Stupid Danes.

that really sucks... im starting to belive that this constitution is fucked....

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus You mean smart, no?

Yes, of course I do. I think that it borderlines divine genious to have one opinion on the constitution, see the French and Dutch poo their pants out of hatred of their government, and then change your mind. Fabulous! It's built on a logic so stellar that even someone like me, who works with formal logics, can't fully understand it.
It's like having decided to have pancakes, noticing that your neighbour's car has been painted, and then as a consequence decide to have soup instead. Mindblowing!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus And stop advertising the fact the Denmark has a lot of sheep, you've done already to much to try and convience St. Andrew of its superiority to Sweden, and this is well just sleazy.

Classic.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yup. You might as well change that flag to American .

Sorry. You guys have voted absolutely stupid *twice* already. Danes have yet to actually do it for the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew that really sucks... im starting to belive that this constitution is fucked....

Yes. It's a good constitution, but democracy shows its flaws once again. Until very recently I thought that people with double standards were the ones I hated most. But seeing events unfold in the last couple of years, I have decided that stupid people making a stand on things they have absolutely no f*cking clue about are my new number ones on that list.

And something a little more informative than a TV-pic:

From Jyllandsposten

quote:

Danes abandon EU treaty Support for the new EU treaty is waning in Denmark after Dutch and French voters rejected the treaty earlier this week. 40 percent of voters are against the treaty, compared with 31 percent who plan to say yes Denmark has turned against the new European Union constitutional treaty. Three opinion polls reveal Danish attitudes toward the new EU treaty shifting dramatically since Dutch and French voters rejected the treaty earlier this week. According to a survey conducted by Greens for business daily B�rsen, 39.5 percent of Danes would vote no for the treaty, compared with 30.8 percent who would vote yes. Undecided voters still make up 29.7 percent of the population. Just last month, Greens found that naysayers represented only 26 percent of the voters, while 34.3 percent of the population expected to vote yes on the treaty. The Danish People's Party, which opposes the treaty and has called upon the government to call off Denmark's referendum on 27 September, found encouragement in the new figures. Morten Messerschmidt, the party's spokesman on EU affairs, was pleased with the change in public opinion. 'You can't count your chickens before they are hatched, but this is great news. I think the government should follow the Danish People's Party proposal about not holding a referendum. It seems pointless, since there isn't anything to vote on, now that France and Holland have said no,' said Messerschmidt. Foreign Minister Per Stig M�ller tried to downplay the importance of the new results. 'This change isn't surprising considering the dramatic developments in France and the Netherlands. But opinion polls go up and down. If you get shocked by such things, you shouldn't be in this business. It cannot be true that when opinion polls go up, you hold referendums, and when they go down, you cancel them,' said M�ller.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4610555.stm

even chirac says that all the countries must go on with the ratification process. Perhaps a yes in luxenburg can change the danes' minds, and if we get two straight yes' then perhaps we can change the trend.... there is some hope...

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew again THIS IS NOT LITERALLY A CONSTITUTION!!! its a treaty, its kinda complicated...

Since we've established by now that Europeans are stupid, why go and make it complicated?

Why must this "thing" since its not a constitution as you say, must be so long, and so detailed, so specific, and so complicated?

Why can't it be straight-forward, accessible, and easy to comprehend to the masses?

quote:

those were the rights we have as a citizen of the union, those rights are not obvious for a block of countries like the EU, since its not a single state.

Like I said, I skimmed the thing for a couple seconds thats what I got.

quote:

well, if you would have read it more carefully you would have seen that there is. this are the rights of any citizen:

Unlike you Mr. I Like Sheep, I don't have a month to "read it more carefully" as you have quoted. I got an hour tops.

quote:

-Human dignity -Right to life -Right to integrity of the person -Prohibition of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment -Prohibition of slavery and forced labour -Right to liberty and security -Respect for private and family life -Protection of personal data -Right to marry and right to found a family -Freedom of thought, conscience and religion -Freedom of expression and information -Freedom of assembly and of association -Freedom of the arts and sciences -Right to education -Freedom to choose an occupation and right to engage in work -Freedom to conduct a business -Right to property -Right to asylum -Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition -Equality before the law -Non-discrimination -Cultural, religious and linguistic diversity -Equality between men and women -The rights of the child -The rights of the elderly -Integration of persons with disabilities -Right of collective bargaining and action -Right of access to placement services -Protection in the event of unjustified dismissal -Fair and just working conditions -Prohibition of child labour and protection of young people at work -Family and professional life -Social security and social assistance -Health care -Access to services of general economic interest -Environmental protection -Consumer protection -Right to vote and to stand as a candidate at elections to the European Parliament -Right to vote and to stand as a candidate at municipal elections -Right to good administration -Right of access to documents -European Ombudsman -Right to petition -Freedom of movement and of residence -Diplomatic and consular protection -Right to an effective remedy and to a fair trial -Presumption of innocence and right of defence -Principles of legality and proportionality of criminal offences and penalties -Right not to be tried or punished twice in criminal proceedings for the same criminal offence

I think you're forgetting about 250+ more so called "rights" that are found in the EU constitution as well.

quote:

So those rights are not enough for ya?

Basically my argument was they are too much and too stupid.
i.e WTF is human dignity? Who defines it how? Why put in such an abstract term as a right? What is the right to life? Does that mean abortions are illegal??

quote:

yes, the european union is terrible, we actually give our youth rights

Yes, perhaps instead of giving youth their rights you give the nation their rights to decide how they would like to raise their youth, hmm?

quote:

I actually agree with you here, the last paragraph should been taken away.

There are dozen more such passages that restrict rights of nations/citizen that are just plain stupid. Leave the rest to the nation, the EU should just provide the framework to let the co-operation and the union operate.

quote:

actually i have no idea what means with this, but im sure its good

That makes two of us, but I'm not sure its good.



you clearly dont get the european point of view, we see our rights as different things than yours...



for many reasons this is a lot more complicated, not necisarily a bad thing.] [/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Since we've established by now that Europeans are stupid, why go and make it complicated? Why must this "thing" since its not a constitution as you say, must be so long, and so detailed, so specific, and so complicated? Why can't it be straight-forward, accessible, and easy to comprehend to the masses? Unlike you Mr. I Like Sheep, I don't have a month to "read it more carefully" as you have quoted. I got an hour tops.

Well, it hardly seems reasonable, to measure the quality of a constitution on basis of the time it takes to read it and/or the level of illeteracy required to understand it. Extrapolating from US films and tv shows, I believe that US citizens are taught about the contents of the constitution at elementary school (?), however, if they weren't how many US citizens do you think would ever want to learn about it? And how many of those would be so stupid as to require it to be worded in simple terms, or be so impatient that it needs to be short?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Well, it hardly seems reasonable, to measure the quality of a constitution on basis of the time it takes to read it and/or the level of illeteracy required to understand it. Extrapolating from US films and tv shows, I believe that US citizens are taught about the contents of the constitution at elementary school (?), however, if they weren't how many US citizens do you think would ever want to learn about it? And how many of those would be so stupid as to require it to be worded in simple terms, or be so impatient that it needs to be short?

I'm not saying it should be a page long or anything, but it surely does not necessairly ed to be 350 pages long. Name me one good long constitution. They don't exist. The longer they are, the more toruble they are.

US students are taught about the constitution throughout their lifetimes, and they learn to read and understand ALL the constitution. This is not always the case with state constitutions which are many times long and stupid (such as Texas') that they are only summarized and not directly accessible.

I think it is imperitive to have a fairly accessible constitution when you create such a document, what's the point of creating an undemocratic foundation for your democracy?


Just to reiterate, the point is EU's constitution's length does not make it a better document it makes it more stupid and hence people aren't going to vote for it.

Well if it wasn't complicated it could be read anyway you like to.

For example (to use the US one...) "Millita" could be construed as "everyone" and "arms" as "fully automatic weapons" even after the need for a Millita disapears.

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