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Sad day for Ontario

Just as i started to get used to the comprimise of DSR's for smokers they come along and do this. I think bar owners should sue the government for losses based on the money they spent for DSRs. DSRs were a decent comprimise. Those who didnt want to smelll smoke didnt have to.

And banning displays in stores? Thats just ludicris. If the government were serious they'd just ban tobacco instead of making all these ridiculous laws that skirt around prohibition while trampling on everyone's rights.

Look for them to ban outdoor smoking next. Don't think the anti-smoking zealots are done yet. And when tobacco is finally relegated to being illegal (when gangs and other organized crime will take over the trade), look for these same zealots to go after liquor and fastfood.

Bottom line is that smoking rooms were decent for everyone and now they wont even give us that right. Big brother can kiss my ass.

quote:

Ont. boasts smoking ban is toughest anti-tobacco legislation in North America KEITH LESLIE Wed Jun 8, 2:00 PM ET TORONTO (CP) - Fears that restaurants, bars and casinos will lose smokers' business were dismissed in favour of health concerns Wednesday as Ontario passed what it boasts is the "most aggressive anti-tobacco legislation in North America." ADVERTISEMENT The provincial legislature voted 71 to 6 pass the Smoke-Free Ontario Act - a blanket ban on smoking in all indoor public and workplaces, that will take effect across the province starting in June 2006. The bill gives Ontario retailers until June 2008 to get rid of so-called power walls that display cigarettes and remove them from the sight of minors. "I'm very proud of this legislation," Premier Dalton McGuinty told reporters. "We're taking a strong stand against tobacco, and by so doing, standing up for the health of Ontarians." McGuinty said tobacco is the No. 1 cause of preventable illness in the province, killing 16,000 Ontarians a year and costing the provincial economy $2.7 billion annually in lost productivity. "It costs the health-care system alone $1.6 billion," he said. Health Minister George Smitherman defended the decision to include legion halls in the ban, despite pleas by seniors' groups to grant an exemption to Canada's war veterans. "Eighty per cent of Ontario's adults don't smoke, and that applies to those that fought in wars," said Smitherman. "Everyone deserves an equal right to be able to enjoy their indoor space without harmful effect." Critics, like Niagara-area Conservative Tim Hudak, one of six Tories who voted against the bill, warned the ban would hurt restaurants, bars and casinos. "I have no doubt that it's going to impact on the border casinos, on charity gaming, and the hospitality sector," he said. "I don't think this government has accounted for the loss in money at the casinos as a result of this bill." But the government and the New Democrats said everyone has a right to work in a non-toxic environment. "It's an important health and safety issue," said NDP house leader Peter Kormos. "However, New Democrats have also called on the government to note there will be some financial hardship both in the corner store industry and to tobacco farmers." Agriculture Minister Steve Peters said there is a $35-million transition fund to help tobacco farmers switch to other crops, and $15 million to help communities in southwestern Ontario, where most of Canada's tobacco is grown, to attract new investment. "The challenge is there is no silver bullet to replace tobacco," said Peters. "We do have tremendous opportunities from the industrial hemp standpoint, which has no hallucinogenic properties." Peters said Ontario had more than 2,000 tobacco growers 10 years ago, but that number is now down to about 600, with about 200 farmers getting out of the business in just the past year.

Re: Sad day for Ontario

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 And banning displays in stores? Thats just ludicris. If the government were serious they'd just ban tobacco instead of making all these ridiculous laws that skirt around prohibition while trampling on everyone's rights.

they cannot make tabacco illegal just like that. Farmers and tobacco companies have licenses to grow and distribute it, so they have a contract which allows them to sell it. Thats from my understanding.

And as for banning it outside? haha yeah right, now way they would do that. I hate smokes, but even i wouldnt want that, its just mean.

the DSRs i think were a good compromise. But again, i think its because the workers still have to go in there. I know iknow, its the worker's choice to work in there or not.

What i think they are trying to protect against is, employers who hold jobs over people's heads with something like that. "dont want to work in the smoking room? fine you are fired" This way, everbody is on a level playing field. Im not saying this is the right course of action, but just commenting on why they did it.

DSRs were only ever a transition to policies already known to be coming in the future anyways...

As a non smoker i want to tell you what this will do to the industry i work in. Nobody asked me, a non smoker, how i felt about possible job losses as a result of crusades to "protect my health". Id rather have happy customers and a job then worry about someone having a cigarette. Seriously with all the crap you breathe in just walking down richmond st a cig shouldnt be so worrysome.

$1.7 billion on the health care system? And how much money in cig taxes did the ontario government make last year? I think they at least broke even in that deal and that doesnt even count what the feds took in. So the healthcare arguement doesnt work for me even if it were only based on numbers. The scary part about people who use the healthcare system as a crutch is that they set a precedent for all kinds of things. "i dont want to pay for your bad eating habits' will be the next orweillian thing people say. People who use the healthcare angle to try and force their will on others make me wish we had a private system where we could worry about our own damn lives. Giving up my freedom to choose how i live is not worth 4 hour line ups in the emergency ward im sorry.

DSRs were an ok comprimise but sadly you give them an inch and they take a mile. This madness has to stop.

jayx1, health and social costs vastly outweigths revenus from tobacco sales, don't event try to go there.

nonetheless, the point is still valid. They do pull in QUITE a bit on taxes from cigarettes. The better point that he raised is using the health care system as a crutch. It really is indicative of the form of things to come.

quote:

Originally posted by malek jayx1, health and social costs vastly outweigths revenus from tobacco sales, don't event try to go there.

Here is a social cost no one thinks about. How about the people who are about to lose work and become poor? Think of the costs associated with that. Think about the fact that poverty is directly related to illness. What about the social costs when it comes to the fact that people are going out less often?

And dont tell me that this does not affect the numbers and employment in the service industry because it does.

Im sick of people always trying to "save me from myself" without even asking if i want to be saved.

I ask this question. What difference does it make if DSRs exist or not? Non smokers dont have to go in there. Why do non smokers care so much? It goes beyond the "i dont want to smell smoke" arguement when we ban DSRs. Now its simply the morality police trying to dictate how people should live.

quote:

Originally posted by zokissima nonetheless, the point is still valid. They do pull in QUITE a bit on taxes from cigarettes. The better point that he raised is using the health care system as a crutch. It really is indicative of the form of things to come.

exactly and thats what scares me even more than the prospect of less employment.

This is an insult to our veterans. I am phoning my MPP this afternoon to voice my disgust.

quote:

Originally posted by amb_ This is an insult to our veterans. I am phoning my MPP this afternoon to voice my disgust.

On all levels...

Not only cant they smoke but we have lost a huge part of the freedom they fought for.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Here is a social cost no one thinks about. How about the people who are about to lose work and become poor? Think of the costs associated with that. Think about the fact that poverty is directly related to illness. What about the social costs when it comes to the fact that people are going out less often? And dont tell me that this does not affect the numbers and employment in the service industry because it does. Im sick of people always trying to "save me from myself" without even asking if i want to be saved. I ask this question. What difference does it make if DSRs exist or not? Non smokers dont have to go in there. Why do non smokers care so much? It goes beyond the "i dont want to smell smoke" arguement when we ban DSRs. Now its simply the morality police trying to dictate how people should live.

Jay you KNEW this was coming, this isnt new. You complained about it last summer, when it concerned bars and resturants. So you knew, and you could have stood up and faught. Did you?

How is the bar industry now that there is no smoking? you say lost jobs, bars are as packed as ever from what i see. Can you back up your list job scenerio?

and your comment about, the air being so dirty, who cares about one smoke? ah...i cant even believe you used this an an argument. Did you ever think, that people are trying to reduce the TOTAL amount of pollution being inhaled? Just because the air is polluted, does not mean we should ignore other irratants.

I've got to comment on the supposed job losses that are going to stem from banning smoking in bars and restaurants. Smoking advocates have been crying about this for years. My hometown (Guelph) has had a smoking ban in place for over five years - NOT ONE BAR has closed down because of the ban and they are just as full as they were before the ban.

There will be a decrease in smokers frequenting bars for about six months and then levels will return to normal. Smoking advocates, in order to sustain the job losses argument, need to overcome the lack of logic to their argument. Are smokers going to stay home for the rest of their lives, just so they can smoke? Not likely!

In fact, as a non-smoker, I could make the argument that more people will go to bars now because many non-smokers have avoided bars because they are so smokey.

A second point in favour of banning smoking is smoking advocates' own argument that smokers won't stay as long. This isn't necessarily a bad thing! A higher turnaround of customers allows more people into bars and clubs. Consumer studies have shown that people drink more in the first hour at a bar than in any other time period exceeding one hour. Banning smoking therefore, has the potential of increasing bars alcohol revenues.

Just my $.02

I see smoking rooms and patios packed. I see places without these facilities hurting. The clubs i work at have smoking sections and they are always full. Often times ive seen lineups to get in. Tell me that the demand isnt there. How is someone who needs to smoke once an hour going to have fun at a place where they cant smoke for 4 or 5?

Did i fight for it? Actually i did. i sent letters to many organizations and the government. I actually got the ear of an anti-smoking activist who hadnt taken my view into account. She had always just assumed that non smoking workers wanted this and admitted that no one had ever actually stop to think about actually asking them. She had direct contact with smitherman as well so im sure he got to hear my arguement in some form. The problem is that these zealots are so hellbent on leaving their mark that they dont care about the implications.

Please answer me this.... what difference does it make to non smokers whether a DSR is present? They dont have to go in there.

No one has answered that one yet.

quote:

Originally posted by malek jayx1, health and social costs vastly outweigths revenus from tobacco sales, don't event try to go there.

then let me opt out of your system...

You are right, it does not matter to people who do not have to go in there, but it does to non-smokers who do have to go in to serve the patrons.

Fine you are a non-smoker, bar staff who does not care. Are you the mojority?

In terms of patio's being packed, its summer, and not everybody who is on the patio is smoking. i love sitting out there and having a meal with the sun in my face.

Honestly Jay, stop complaining, we all know second hand smoke is bad, worse than actually smoking, lets just remove one more way people get cancer.

quote:

Originally posted by Orko You are right, it does not matter to people who do not have to go in there, but it does to non-smokers who do have to go in to serve the patrons. Fine you are a non-smoker, bar staff who does not care. Are you the mojority? In terms of patio's being packed, its summer, and not everybody who is on the patio is smoking. i love sitting out there and having a meal with the sun in my face. Honestly Jay, stop complaining, we all know second hand smoke is bad, worse than actually smoking, lets just remove one more way people get cancer.

has anyone even asked the bar staff? If presented with the possibility that there could be job losses or keeping DSRs i think most would pick keeping the DSRs.

But we dont know because no one even bothered to ask them

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Please answer me this.... what difference does it make to non smokers whether a DSR is present? They dont have to go in there. No one has answered that one yet.

I'm a none smoker and hey, a DSR doesnt affect me AT ALL! They are vented, you dont have to go in there, and i dont smell the smoke outside of it. Its just plain stupid that they would start to ban this shit. Just like you said, bars spent money to build them, and now its for nothing? Will they get this money back that they spent on them? NO! People need to realize that the world doesnt fuckin revolve around them. Everytime theres something someone doesnt like, people fuckin whine about shit, want to get laws to fix it. Fuckin cry me a fuckin river. Stop your fuckin whining for once. Change a few things so its half and half, just like the DSRs! Oh wait, thats not enough now, gotta ban the thing entirly. Oh no, I moved into an area with clubs, the clubs are to loud, I want them shut down, even though it was my choice to move there. An example of the bullshit people do.

Regardless of whether you have a *right* to smoke or not, and what sort of effect it has on your business by banning it, it IS bad for you AND doubly worse for people around you, whether it actually bothers you or not it does affect your health. I've known non smokers who have worked in bars in Calgary for 3-4 straight years (where the bars are still smoking but patios are not... go figure) and have essentially developed a nasty chronic smoker's cough. Now tell me that's not damaging to your health.

It's the same thing as the hearing loss issue, sure your hearing returns after a few hours now, but later in life it will probably give you issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Playa24_7 I'm a none smoker and hey, a DSR doesnt affect me AT ALL! They are vented, you dont have to go in there, and i dont smell the smoke outside of it. Its just plain stupid that they would start to ban this shit. Just like you said, bars spent money to build them, and now its for nothing? Will they get this money back that they spent on them? NO! People need to realize that the world doesnt fuckin revolve around them. Everytime theres something someone doesnt like, people fuckin whine about shit, want to get laws to fix it. Fuckin cry me a fuckin river. Stop your fuckin whining for once. Change a few things so its half and half, just like the DSRs! Oh wait, thats not enough now, gotta ban the thing entirly. Oh no, I moved into an area with clubs, the clubs are to loud, I want them shut down, even though it was my choice to move there. An example of the bullshit people do.

Exactly and in Canada this bullshit is chronic.

quote:

Originally posted by Thracky Regardless of whether you have a *right* to smoke or not, and what sort of effect it has on your business by banning it, it IS bad for you AND doubly worse for people around you, whether it actually bothers you or not it does affect your health. I've known non smokers who have worked in bars in Calgary for 3-4 straight years (where the bars are still smoking but patios are not... go figure) and have essentially developed a nasty chronic smoker's cough. Now tell me that's not damaging to your health. It's the same thing as the hearing loss issue, sure your hearing returns after a few hours now, but later in life it will probably give you issues.

its my choice whether to work in a bar with smoking or not. The end.


And DSRs are designed so that employees only have to be there a minimal amount of time at best.

Whats next? Lifeguards who complain that they are getting wet?

quote:

Originally posted by Playa24_7 I'm a none smoker and hey, a DSR doesnt affect me AT ALL! They are vented, you dont have to go in there, and i dont smell the smoke outside of it. Its just plain stupid that they would start to ban this shit. Just like you said, bars spent money to build them, and now its for nothing? Will they get this money back that they spent on them? NO! People need to realize that the world doesnt fuckin revolve around them. Everytime theres something someone doesnt like, people fuckin whine about shit, want to get laws to fix it. Fuckin cry me a fuckin river. Stop your fuckin whining for once. Change a few things so its half and half, just like the DSRs! Oh wait, thats not enough now, gotta ban the thing entirly. Oh no, I moved into an area with clubs, the clubs are to loud, I want them shut down, even though it was my choice to move there. An example of the bullshit people do.

You go boi! Thats exactly it Dan. Its complete ass!! Im with 100% in that!!! PURE RIDDICULOUSNESS!!! bullshit, bullshit, bullshit

Re: Sad day for Ontario

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Just as i started to get used to the comprimise of DSR's for smokers they come along and do this. I think bar owners should sue the government for losses based on the money they spent for DSRs. DSRs were a decent comprimise. Those who didnt want to smelll smoke didnt have to. And banning displays in stores? Thats just ludicris. If the government were serious they'd just ban tobacco instead of making all these ridiculous laws that skirt around prohibition while trampling on everyone's rights. Look for them to ban outdoor smoking next. Don't think the anti-smoking zealots are done yet. And when tobacco is finally relegated to being illegal (when gangs and other organized crime will take over the trade), look for these same zealots to go after liquor and fastfood. Bottom line is that smoking rooms were decent for everyone and now they wont even give us that right. Big brother can kiss my ass.

what the fuuuucccckkkkkk

Man this really sucks... How do DSRs affect non-smokers?? Jesus, i see non smokers in the DSRs all the time! If you don't like the friggin smoke then fuck off to where no one's smoking. ffs this is ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 its my choice whether to work in a bar with smoking or not. The end. And DSRs are designed so that employees only have to be there a minimal amount of time at best. Whats next? Lifeguards who complain that they are getting wet?

oh gawd

Re: Re: Sad day for Ontario

quote:

Originally posted by loca what the fuuuucccckkkkkk Man this really sucks... How do DSRs affect non-smokers?? Jesus, i see non smokers in the DSRs all the time! If you don't like the friggin smoke then fuck off to where no one's smoking. ffs this is ridiculous.

This is proof that the real agenda is not protecting non smoker's health. Its more about pushing morals onto others.

Sadly these are the exact same characters that slam a lot conservatives for being "bible thumpers" and trying to push their morals on people

Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 its my choice whether to work in a bar with smoking or not. The end. And DSRs are designed so that employees only have to be there a minimal amount of time at best. Whats next? Lifeguards who complain that they are getting wet?

Getting wet doesn't cause cancer and millions of dollars in health care costs last I checked.

and if you think that banning DSR's will kill the bar industry, that's a huge load of crap. People aren't going to stop going out because they can't smoke at the bar, period.

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