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-- Blow it out your ass, Bono!

Blow it out your ass, Bono!

This guy has it right on.

Live 8 was a useless boondoggle

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ll Rock, No Action By JEAN-CLAUDE SHANDA TONME Yaound�, Cameroon LIVE 8, that extraordinary media event that some people of good intentions in the West just orchestrated, would have left us Africans indifferent if we hadn't realized that it was an insult both to us and to common sense. We have nothing against those who this month, in a stadium, a street, a park, in Berlin, London, Moscow, Philadelphia, gathered crowds and played guitar and talked about global poverty and aid for Africa. But we are troubled to think that they are so misguided about what Africa's real problem is, and dismayed by their willingness to propose solutions on our behalf. We Africans know what the problem is, and no one else should speak in our name. Africa has men of letters and science, great thinkers and stifled geniuses who at the risk of torture rise up to declare the truth and demand liberty. Don't insult Africa, this continent so rich yet so badly led. Instead, insult its leaders, who have ruined everything. Our anger is all the greater because despite all the presidents for life, despite all the evidence of genocide, we didn't hear anyone at Live 8 raise a cry for democracy in Africa. Don't the organizers of the concerts realize that Africa lives under the oppression of rulers like Yoweri Museveni (who just eliminated term limits in Uganda so he can be president indefinitely) and Omar Bongo (who has become immensely rich in his three decades of running Gabon)? Don't they know what is happening in Cameroon, Chad, Togo and the Central African Republic? Don't they understand that fighting poverty is fruitless if dictatorships remain in place? Even more puzzling is why Youssou N'Dour and other Africans participated in this charade. Like us, they can't help but know that Africa's real problem is the lack of freedom of expression, the usurpation of power, the brutal oppression. Neither debt relief nor huge amounts of food aid nor an invasion of experts will change anything. Those will merely prop up the continent's dictators. It's up to each nation to liberate itself and to help itself. When there is a problem in the United States, in Britain, in France, the citizens vote to change their leaders. And those times when it wasn't possible to freely vote to change those leaders, the people revolted. In Africa, our leaders have led us into misery, and we need to rid ourselves of these cancers. We would have preferred for the musicians in Philadelphia and London to have marched and sung for political revolution. Instead, they mourned a corpse while forgetting to denounce the murderer. What is at issue is an Africa where dictators kill, steal and usurp power yet are treated like heroes at meetings of the African Union. What is at issue is rulers like Fran�ois Boziz�, the coup leader running the Central Africa Republic, and Faure Gnassingb�, who just succeeded his father as president of Togo, free to trample universal suffrage and muzzle their people with no danger that they'll lose their seats at the United Nations. Who here wants a concert against poverty when an African is born, lives and dies without ever being able to vote freely? But the truth is that it was not for us, for Africa, that the musicians at Live 8 were singing; it was to amuse the crowds and to clear their own consciences, and whether they realized it or not, to reinforce dictatorships. They still believe us to be like children that they must save, as if we don't realize ourselves what the source of our problems is. Jean-Claude Shanda Tonme is a consultant on international law and a columnist for Le Messager, a Cameroonian daily, where a version of this article first appeared. This article was translated by The Times from the French.

Re: Blow it out your ass, Bono!

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Originally posted by Shakka This guy has it right on.

I have to agree with you on that. My favorite part of the article is when he said, "But the truth is that it was not for us, for Africa, that the musicians at Live 8 were singing; it was to amuse the crowds and to clear their own consciences...." The journalist is right to say that and is very accurate.

Africa is defintley a trickey problem.

You want democracy but the people are perhaps some of the most saveage, poor, and uneducated on this planet - so it will be hard to implement.
You want educated and rich people, but they would require a deomcratic government to come to fruition.

Its a chicken and egg problem.

Throwing money at this situation is perhaps one of the worst things you can do.


Read Natan Sharansky's book, The Case for Democracy Amazon
This book was read by Bush (yes Bush can read!) and influenced his thinking. Bush invited the author to the white house to speak about the book.

This quiet well explains Bush's approach to Africa - money tied to political liberation of a nation.

Well... duuuuhh. Its not that people don't understand this, its that Africa has so many problems right now few are willing to commit to doing anything. Its much easier to throw money in that general direction and say job done, move on.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Throwing money at this situation is perhaps one of the worst things you can do.

Brilliant. I agre 100%.

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Originally posted by josh4 Well... duuuuhh. Its not that people don't understand this, its that Africa has so many problems right now few are willing to commit to doing anything. Its much easier to throw money in that general direction and say job done, move on.

How about 'throwing' that money towards our own homeless then??

I've been saying this since before the big waste of time.
Bono just doesn't seem to get it. While admirable, it's not a solution at all.
Hell, look at, "Live AID". Almost 20 YEARS AGO when we first started seeing poor, malnurished kids and where are they now?
Square one. (good Coldplay song btw) :P

I've posted this one before but it's very prudent.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Bono just doesn't seem to get it. While admirable, it's not a solution at all.

i never liked how he carries on like hes saving the world through his music

Nice to see that I'm not the only who thinks Bono is a high-and-mighty dickhead.

Wow, mind if I step in and interrupt this anti-humanitarian circle-jerk for a second?

Firstly - and I'm basing this on the article in the OP and the endless succession of disparaging editorials I've had to read in the Australian media - I really do not understand the antipathy directed against Geldoff, Bono and the others who participated in the Live 8 concerts. Even if we assume the worst case scenario - that the debt-relief they're asking for will make no difference whatsoever - why the unabashed antipathy? They're trying to make a difference, they've put on free concerts to raise awareness for a cause that is both worthwhile and easily forgotten in western societies and they've caused no-one any harm by doing so. What, exactly, are you people trying to prove by slating them in such a way? Haven't they succeeded in raising awareness for the plight of people in Africa? Aren't individuals of all political creeds now publicly discussing the best possible solutions to alleviate this crisis? How, exactly, given this, are they deserving of the vitriol directed towards them by the self-righteous, right-wing fucks who, with all due respect, have done absolutely nothing themselves to help the situation?

Secondly - and this is what really shits me about the negativity of those who seem to have an inherent moral opposition to those who make an an effort to alleviate the plight of starving people - there is a ridiculous, completely unjustifiable naivety about the solution these people offer as an alternative. "What they need is democracy and responsible government", I hear, "anything else is just a band-aid solution". Well shit guys, that's all it takes is it? Any idea about how we'd go about installing responsible, democratic governments in about 50 largely war-torn countries though? I mean we've committed about 200,000 troops and $200 billion towards installing responsible, democratic governments in just two countries and even with that sort of commitment we haven't even come close to securing their medium-long term political futures - how the fuck, exactly, would we go about democratising a continent as large as Africa?

I mean, yes - having a responsible, democratic government in power in each of these nations would obviously greatly benefit their plight, but what are we to do in the meantime? Should we just sit around and watch people starve while we condescendingly espouse the merits of a certain political theory, as though the people who suffer the most have any fucking say in the political state of their country? I'm sure that the people of Ethiopia will be greatly encouraged to hear that the 300,000 of them who will starve to death this year, are only starving due to their lack of political freedoms. I know, for one, that if I were starving to death right now, I'd be greatly encouraged by the recent speight of op-eds lending their support to the potential democratisation of my country! Fuck, why would I need food when I have right-wing think tanks exploiting my plight to further advance their sickeningly didactic ideologies?

And this is my point: fine, we would all like to see democracy in African nations right now, but that is no excuse to do nothing in the meantime. Even if chunks of the $40 billion promised via this debt relief are funnelled into corrupt governmental coffers, so long as the poor bastards who are starving to death get some respite, then it's worth it. If some of this money is spent on the construction of infrastructure and sustainable, long-term agricultural programs instead of paying off unstainable debts, then it's worth it. If lives are saved, then, fuck me, it's worth it. If you don't agree that the lives of African people - most of whom will not live to see the democratic African paradise you dream of - are worth saving, then fine. Feel free to continue with your current policy of doing absolutely nothing while lecturing the rest of us about the merits of political freedoms (which you often seem to have a lukewarm commitment to preverving in your own homelands) because that attitude has really gone a long way to solving Africa's problems so far. If you do agree, however, that the lives of the African people are worth saving, then you're just going to have to suck it up and admit - although it might mean conceding some of the moral highground you so desperately crave to the humanitarians you hold an inexplicable hatred towards - that, at the moment, aid donations and debt cancellations are the only hope these people have - however slight that hope might be - of staying alive.

If you think there's a better, more realistic solution, let's hear it.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hell, look at, "Live AID". Almost 20 YEARS AGO when we first started seeing poor, malnurished kids and where are they now? Square one.

And if they're still here at all today as a result of "Live Aid" then it was worth it, wasn't it? Oh no, that's right: the Africans are a nebulous people completely devoid of any hint personality or individuality that might be worth preserving. Statistics tell us that people in Africa are still starving, therefore the lives of the people who have been saved don't count. Africans are just statistics afterall, so even if the lives of individuals such as the "poor, malnurished kids" you speak of have been saved through humanitarian effort it doesn't matter because that homogenous mass of organic matter known as "the Africans" are still starving in large numbers, right? Maybe we should start packing liberal quantities of "democracy" and "freedom" into those aid packages with the food and drinking water to help things along, huh?

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Originally posted by Renegade Wow, mind if I step in and interrupt this anti-humanitarian circle-jerk for a second? They're trying to make a difference, they've put on free concerts to raise awareness for a cause that is both worthwhile and easily forgotten in western societies and they've caused no-one any harm by doing so. What, exactly, are you people trying to prove by slating them in such a way? Haven't they succeeded in raising awareness for the plight of people in Africa?

You think there's anyone in the world who doesn't know Africa is a shithole? These people are promoting themselves. Hey everyone, let's play music for free until the hunger problems in Africa are solved! They aren't offering a solution to the real problem. Let's go to London, get stoned and drunk and say it's all in the name of saving a few hungry Ethiopians. Please.

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"What they need is democracy and responsible government", I hear, "anything else is just a band-aid (lol!) solution". Well shit guys, that's all it takes is it? Any idea about how we'd go about installing responsible, democratic governments in about 50 largely war-torn countries though? I mean we've committed about 200,000 troops and $200 billion towards installing responsible, democratic governments in just two countries and even with that sort of commitment we haven't even come close to securing their medium-long term political futures - how the fuck, exactly, would we go about democratising a continent as large as Africa?

Quit throwing billions of dollars into the void that is corrupt leadership and get the mighty U.N. to quit turning a blind eye to the oppression and genocide among other things.

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I mean, yes - having a responsible, democratic government in power in each of these nations would obviously greatly benefit their plight, but what are we to do in the meantime?

You know, it's sad. Africa is one of the most resource rich continents on the planet, but it is also the poorest, most oppressed. As ironic as it is, Africa is one of the "richest" continents, but the people of Africa remain the poorest in the world. It's easy to see why. Of course, if America or any other developed nations start pouring troops in and start taking assertive action to change the landscape, the whole world will revolt and say America et al. are just being the imperialistic fuckheads that they always are and they're only interested in stealing Africa's wealth. I mean, Iraq anyone? And why shouldn't America (and others) expect something in return for all of their contributions and sacrifices? Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

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I'm sure that the people of Ethiopia will be greatly encouraged to hear that the 300,000 of them who will starve to death this year, are only starving due to their lack of political freedoms.

I'm sure they're thrilled to know that there are musicians smashing their guitars on stage for a bunch of spoiled party goers just doing their darndest to do...what the hell are they trying to do again?

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I know, for one, that if I were starving to death right now, I'd be greatly encouraged by the recent speight of op-eds lending their support to the potential democratisation of my country! Fuck, why would I need food when I have right-wing think tanks exploiting my plight to further advance their sickeningly didactic ideologies?

Weeee! Blame the right! They just made a massive increase in their pledge to help shitty ole Africa, but again, no good deed goes unpunished. (And yes, I feel that throwing money at the problem is likely exacerbating the situation if anything, so go ahead and blame the right).



Look, it's a serious problem, but if you think Live 8 did a god damn thing to help out other than cause about a million wicked hangovers on Monday morning, then I would have to respectfully disagree.

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Originally posted by Shakka You think there's anyone in the world who doesn't know Africa is a shithole?

You think that very many people around the world would have been motivated enough to prod the heads of G8 nations into providing debt relief for African nations without the global publicity of these concerts?

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Quit throwing billions of dollars into the void that is corrupt leadership

Right, because the impoverishment of a nation always tends to loosen the grip of the dictator over it, huh?

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and get the mighty U.N. to quit turning a blind eye to the oppression and genocide among other things.

The UN is powerless to involve itself in a situation unless a member state raises the issue and pushes for a resolution. If there is global apathy towards an international crisis, where no member of the UNSC compels the the other members resolve a crisis, what exactly is the beaurocratic shell that is the UN supposed to? Where, for instance, has the US been during these periods of "oppression and genocide"?

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Of course, if America or any other developed nations start pouring troops in and start taking assertive action to change the landscape, the whole world will revolt and say America et al. are just being the imperialistic fuckheads that they always are

The point I'm making is that even if it was morally right for the US (or any other nation, or coalition of nations) to invade African nations with the intent of installing democracy, it would be impossible to do so. Like I said, 200,000 troops and $200 billion haven't been able to bring a stable, democratic government to Iraq or Afghanistan - how the fuck would would we be able to provide such governments to the 50-odd nations of Africa?

As I said in my earlier post, this would obviously the ideal solution. What, though, are we going to do to help the starving people in the meantime?

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and they're only interested in stealing Africa's wealth. I mean, Iraq anyone? And why shouldn't America (and others) expect something in return for all of their contributions and sacrifices? Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

Haha, wow. I'm not sure why you introduced this trainwreck of an argument given its irrelevence to the topic, but I now have the mental image of a band of Vikings ransacking a remote village and saying "Hey, since we've expended so much effort in razing your houses to the ground, I think we deserve to plunder you gold and rape your women, guys...".

In all seriousness, please name me any war in history where the plundering of an invaded nation's resources by the occupying force could be morally justified?

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Weeee! Blame the right! They just made a massive increase in their pledge to help shitty ole Africa, but again, no good deed goes unpunished.

Who, exactly, is "they"? And if by "blame the right" you mean blame the right-wing think-tanks I mentioned for doing absolutely nothing but sitting back espousing the merits of an ideology that is completely unattainable in most parts of the African continent at this point in time, then yes, thank you, I shall. Fuck you, right-wing think-tanks, for your complete absense of a constructive contribution.

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(And yes, I feel that throwing money at the problem is likely exacerbating the situation if anything, so go ahead and blame the right).

Yeah, there's nothing these people need less right now than money to buy food with...

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Originally posted by Renegade Yeah, there's nothing these people need less right now than money to buy food with...

Well, when food is dropped in or aide is sent, those oppressive dictators manage to always keep it out of the hands of those who most badly need it. Would you suggest ending in armed guards and setting up a police state to ensure that aid gets allocated to the right channels? I'm sure that would be met with armed resistance by the very dictators who we would be trying to bypass. There needs to be global pressure to remove corrupt dictators from power. And by corrupt dictators, I mean every single one of them, except of course Saddam Hussein, because he was a nice guy who just got a bad rap. Remember, the humanitarian portion of the Iraq strategy relieved the most flak because it wasn't viewed as a primary rationale for the war with Iraq and could not be used as justification for removing Saddam Hussein from power. Sorry for my Iraqi tangent, but I see plenty of parallels (I realize you probably had no intention of going down that road).

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Originally posted by Renegade In all seriousness, please name me any war in history where the plundering of an invaded nation's resources by the occupying force could be morally justified?

I don't think 'plundering' was implied; more like, fiscal reponsibility for debt. and favours incurred.
It is morally right to send money, food and clothing to Africa in need; absolutely! (Nobody is suggesting that it stop altogether or I would hope not)
But what is so wrong in asking for someone to stand up for themselves after years of sticking their hands out?
At what point would we expect some kind of gesture of actual self-esteem and willingness to drudge themselves out of the hell-hole they have themselves in?
After 20 years or more, in the world we live in today, I think the question is more than justified...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I don't think 'plundering' was implied; more like, fiscal reponsibility for debt. and favours incurred.

His implication (and yours too, from what I can tell) was that an invading force has a legitimate, moral claim to the resources of the nation it's forcibly occupying. How, exactly, is this not "plunder"?

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It is morally right to send money, food and clothing to Africa in need; absolutely! (Nobody is suggesting that it stop altogether or I would hope not)

Right. So what are we arguing about then?

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But what is so wrong in asking for someone to stand up for themselves after years of sticking their hands out? At what point would we expect some kind of gesture of actual self-esteem and willingness to drudge themselves out of the hell-hole they have themselves in? After 20 years or more, in the world we live in today, I think the question is more than justified...

If you're talking about the people rising up and overthrowing despotic governments in Africa, then this happens with appalling frequency. Trouble is, those who replace the despots at the top tend to be less concerned with what is best for the people of their nation and more concerned with keeping power by violently crushing political opposition. It's a viscious circle: in nations as heavily fractured as many of those in Africa, the alternative is often as undesirable as the status quo. The regular, impoverished citizens of these nations have little say in the militant power-plays going on at the head of their countries. Even if they were to support a rebellion, the new government would likely be every bit as brutal and despotic, because that's the only way power can be maintained in a lot of these places.

So yes, I agree that we would ideally like to see responsible governments in power everywhere in Africa and that this - more than anything else - will assist Africa's plight, but the trouble is that it could be a long time in coming and the starving people that I'm talking about have absolutely no say in what's happening, nor any power to prevent it. My argument, therefore, is that they shouldn't be left to suffer in the meantime, while we wait for political stability to be brought to the continent.

lol ahhh you point-for-point guys really know how to take the fun out of a thread

Explain to me again why it is that we keep throwing money and aid into the hands of some of these people?

Andrea Mitchell bitch slapped for asking a question

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July 21, 2005 | 12:52 p.m. EDT Editor's note: NBC's Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell was involved in an "incident" this morning in Sudan, as she tried to ask a question during a meeting between U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Sudanese President Omar el-Bashir. She recounted it to this blog editor while on the phone from Darfur in western Sudan. �There is no freedom of the press here� Andrea Mitchell, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Things were not going well from the minute that Secretary Condoleezza Rice arrived in the Sudanese capital of Khartoum. Her motorcade got separated and her personal advisor, Jim Wilkinson, got slammed against a wall while he tried to bull his way into the meeting. They blocked all the other State Department officials from even attending this meeting between Rice and the president of Sudan. In fact, for the first six or seven minutes of this meeting, Rice and President el-Bashir couldn't talk because the Arabic translator was prevented from getting in. None of the other top officials ever got into the meeting, including U.S. Agency for International Development Administrator Andrew Natsios. So already there were apologies from Sudanese officials to U.S. officials. Things were not going well. And at that point, there were already problems over which reporters could go in and whether the American press corps could be part of a Sudanese press pool covering the photo opportunity. The State Department officials were insistent that the Americans be represented, as had previously been agreed to. Sudanese officials wanted to only let a camera in, but not permit any writers from newspapers or television. At one point, Sean McCormack, the assistant secretary for public affairs, said to his Sudanese counterpart, "I'll convey your desires about not permitting reporters to ask questions, but that's all I'll do. We have a free press." And his counterpart said, "There is no freedom of the press here." Which kind of told the whole story. So by the time we finally did get in, there were Sudanese officials saying, "Don't ask any questions," and American officials saying, "No agreements. No deals." And we went in, and I asked President el-Bashir why, in essence, anyone should believe his promises when his government has said repeatedly that it will stop the violence and then it continues to support the militias that are doing the killing. At which point two guys came up behind me, two of his armed security guards, and grabbed me from behind and started pulling me out the door. I tried to keep my balance so that I didn't go down. And they shoved me out the door. Rice was furious and came back as soon as we got to the airport to leave for the refugee camp. She said she was very sorry that it happened and that she had demanded an apology from the Sudanese government. Within the hour, before we landed in northern Sudan, she received a call from the foreign minister apologizing. It was the third apology from the Sudanese that day. But two of them preceded the incident, which made everyone in the American delegation think that they weren't worth very much, the apologies. One of the comments from Wilkinson was that Diplomacy 101 says you don't mistreat your guests, especially not when you're trying to get them to restore Sudan's status, remove sanctions and take the country off the terror list. All of this pales, obviously, in the context of why we're here, why Secretary Rice even came to Sudan, which is to try and do something about the horrendous killings, which the U.S. and Rice again yesterday called genocide... the displacement of two million people over the last two years, the burning of villages, the looting of livestock (which is the only means the Sudanese people have to survive). Rice is trying to focus, in this delicate balance, on the possibility for improvement, but many of the players are the bad guys who carried out these policies in the past, including President Omar el-Bashir, my new best friend.

^^^^^^

...and that's exactly my point as well.
How the hell can you deal with this kind of back-assward thinking??

I understand that there are innocent people starving but how long does this have to go on?
Philanthropy is just, but most philanthropy also goes towards finding a cure and a solution to the problem being supported, not just blinding feeding the problem itself.
It's a classic parasite and host situation. We don't want to kill the host but we don't want to feed the parasite either.
A solution must be found, but the parasite doesn't want to die either and unfortunately, in this analogy, the parasite is in control.

Re: Blow it out your ass, Bono!

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Originally posted by Shakka This guy has it right on. Live 8 was a useless boondoggle

Agree, what a blow and a waste of the world's time.


[[[smoke]]]

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