How Important is Harmonic Mixing?

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-- How Important is Harmonic Mixing?

Posted by Spirit5 on Jul-26-2005 20:28:

How Important is Harmonic Mixing?

Okay i've been reading a little bit on this forum about harmonic mixing. Now I am aware of the structure of songs I mix, and have been mixing since I was 16 (on mixmeister, then vinyl, now am going for CDs) but I have never really taken into consideration the keys of tracks as a way to mix. Sure I know that some songs just don't go together, but I have always been putting tracks together by the feel of the tracks...the BPM, Pitch, genre etc. Is Harmonic mixing really THAT important for trance/prog DJs, and how many DJs actually mix this way?

Posted by DJ_Ikronix on Jul-26-2005 20:31:

It's a factor to consider, like pitch, BPM, blah blah blah...

There's nothing wrong with shifting keys, it's just that it's a problem to layer the melodic parts of songs. Not an issue if you're mixing over a melody-free percussion section.

Posted by Spirit5 on Jul-26-2005 20:45:

Yeah I usually mix after the melodic parts or from the last breakdown of the track, but not usually combining melodies (one melody to another) as I mostly always nowadays start from the first beat of the tracks. It seems harmonic mixing would be more useful with shorter tracks or edits, or tracks that don't have long endings with percussion. If close to the end of the track is not a melody/harmony than I can't see why it's that important. Just from what I read it seemed like some people think it is...

Posted by Zild on Jul-26-2005 21:03:

Some of us don't like to wait until we get to the end of a track to start mixing. Moreover, some of us don't cue all of our tracks from the beginning (boring).

Harmonic mixing is more or less important depending on how good of a DJ you aspire to be.

Posted by Spirit5 on Jul-26-2005 21:25:

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
Some of us don't like to wait until we get to the end of a track to start mixing. Moreover, some of us don't cue all of our tracks from the beginning (boring).

Harmonic mixing is more or less important depending on how good of a DJ you aspire to be.

I understand. I occasionally mix sooner than close to the end of the track, but I prefer to play the track in almost it's entirity, and prefer mixed CDs with no (or maybe one or two) edits. I aspire to be a good DJ but am not planning to be Armin Van Buuren, but I think I could work on Harmonic Mixing once I get my CDJs.

Posted by Ste on Jul-27-2005 08:25:

people like to bang on about it because it makes them look educated and all technical, but: what it boils down to is if you do a mix and it doesnt quite sound right, like a bit out of tune, then dont do it again as it probably was the wrong keys of the tracks. the more and more you mix the more you get a keen ear for these things and learn what tracks go together well and what dont.

Posted by Zild on Jul-27-2005 09:34:

quote:
Originally posted by Ste
people like to bang on about it because it makes them look educated and all technical, but: what it boils down to is if you do a mix and it doesnt quite sound right, like a bit out of tune, then dont do it again as it probably was the wrong keys of the tracks. the more and more you mix the more you get a keen ear for these things and learn what tracks go together well and what dont.

Yeah, but that is like learning mathematics by trial and error. Sure it will work but you're taking the looooooonnnnnnggggg way. Truth be told harmonic mixing is not a very daunting task. It is quite simple to do, so it makes my life much easier.

You may have the hours to spend mixing your new tracks against the entirety of your standing collection, but I like to know what I'm mixing will sound good the first time not the third time.

Posted by Basstard on Jul-27-2005 11:52:

Posted by davemolina on Jul-27-2005 21:22:

Good work Jake (Zild) on the explanation.

It really does clean up your mixing when you do it harmonically. It really only takes 30 seconds at the most to key a track, and you can do it when you're listening to your new records.

I haven't been been DJing forever so I still have issues with sour mixes when I do it live and just grab records out of my case. Keying my tracks really helped out.

Posted by Zild on Jul-27-2005 21:55:

quote:
Originally posted by DJ_Ikronix
It's a factor to consider, like pitch, BPM, blah blah blah...

There's nothing wrong with shifting keys, it's just that it's a problem to layer the melodic parts of songs. Not an issue if you're mixing over a melody-free percussion section.

I think a common misconception here is that if you mix harmonically, then you have to stay in a certain key. Actually, you have variety of keys you can mix into, and your mix will be better if you progressively shift keys along the way to increase the "energy" of your mix, or to create certain moods that come with shifting a certain interval, etc...

It really does help you out especially if you are a relative beginner like I am because I haven't had years and years of mixing records to train my ear yet. It also opens up a way for you to shift moods or to progressively increase the energy of your sets.

I hope people don't think that mixing harmonically limits your imagination, or that we do it to look like snobs or uber DJs or whatever. It is simply a technique that can help you a lot and will help train your ear much quicker than if you don't any attention to what certain keys sound like. If anything I don't want other DJs mixing harmonically because that is more competition for me. I'm just trying to help someone out there get over a wall or breakthrough to the next step.

Posted by Fresh on Jul-27-2005 22:04:

Since I've started actually producing tunes I've realised how important it is mixing harmonically - everything syncs like it should. I look at it like this... mixing tunes out of key is similar to producing a tune with different elements out of key - the end result sounds like a horrible mish mash of sounds.

As far as I'm concerned I could never go back mixing without taking harmonics into consideration, especially as I'm noticing more and more that the dj's playing at parties I attend mix out of key all the time! Also I love the feeling knowing that the incoming tune I'm mixing will perfectly sync with the tune I'm currently playing!

Also I don't believe its just melodies in trance tunes that require knowing the key. Working on the harmonics on basslines in techno tunes makes for some interesting switches back and forth and mix progression, meaning you can build and build in your mix with amazing effect!

Posted by Fresh on Jul-27-2005 22:22:

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
I think a common misconception here is that if you mix harmonically, then you have to stay in a certain key. Actually, you have variety of keys you can mix into, and your mix will be better if you progressively shift keys along the way to increase the "energy" of your mix, or to create certain moods that come with shifting a certain interval, etc...

Yea I've noticed this misconception amongst alot of djs before, making an entire mix with all the tunes remaining in the same key would be very boring indeed!

To anyone wanting an idea of how all this works this is a little explanation:

If you were playing a track in the key of Gm you have a variety of options - you can either mix in another tune in the same key (Gm) or drop down the energy to Cm or up the energy to Dm. Another option is to shift to G#m enabling you to mix tunes in the sharp key areas afterwards (C#m, G#m or D#m)

It gives you a much better idea of where you want your mix to progress and ultimately gives you much more control in effective tune selection.

But at the end of the day, each dj to his own. I'm not trying to give off any snobbish impression with all this talk about keys and harmonics, just trying to help people realise what I did once I could hear how terrible an out-of-key mix sounds! Give it some time and effort - trust me you wont look back!

Posted by davemolina on Jul-27-2005 22:23:

True!!!

Since mixing harmonically, I've found it easier to gauge what key is currently in play. Whenever I mix with someone in tandem, I compare the song they've put on to a track I have. I see what key it is and go from there.

Kind of like..."Hey, that track sounds like this one. This track is in C minor. I can play a C minor and it won't sound off!!!"

It really does help me progress musically.

Posted by Rhue on Jul-31-2005 02:03:

A follow up Question:

There are already softwares out there which can Key a track for us (mixshare providing a free one). Now my question is that the Keys do change as the track progresses, so which one do you choose (the one being detected in the body or climax?). I know Armin writes down the bpm and keys of his records, but can't figure out how you guys decide which key defines the track as it keeps changing.

Posted by Ste on Jul-31-2005 08:55:

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
Yeah, but that is like learning mathematics by trial and error. Sure it will work but you're taking the looooooonnnnnnggggg way. Truth be told harmonic mixing is not a very daunting task. It is quite simple to do, so it makes my life much easier.

You may have the hours to spend mixing your new tracks against the entirety of your standing collection, but I like to know what I'm mixing will sound good the first time not the third time.

but you dont buy your whole collection at once, do you? it doesnt take three mixes to realise a mix sounds shit - or it shouldnt anyway. besides - mathematics is all about practice anyway

it doesnt take that long to play a lot of your records when you're starting out and as you get new records you move on and hammer them loads anyway, so you easily build up your knowledge of your tracks over time.

coz at the end of the day, an mix in key will half of the time not be good anyway due to track structures etc.

Posted by pkcRAISTLIN on Jul-31-2005 09:28:

quote:
Originally posted by Rhue
Now my question is that the Keys do change as the track progresses, so which one do you choose (the one being detected in the body or climax?). I know Armin writes down the bpm and keys of his records, but can't figure out how you guys decide which key defines the track as it keeps changing.

i might be well wrong, but most (tho not all) tracks keep the same key all the way thru. if its a song that does have a key change, id work out what the key is at the point where youd mix it in/out.

as far as general harmonic mixing goes, in my experience it makes EQing WAY WAY easier. beatmatching too. if youve got the patience to key your whole collection, do it (it can be quite fun too). if youre a newcomer id say definitely start keying your tracks, so you dont ever have to do 100+ records coz you started too late.

my 2 cents.