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U.S.-Israel Alliance

I have looked on the web for information on a lot of questions I have, pretaining to why the U.S. has come to have an entangling alliance with Israel. I have not been satisfied with the sites I tried to gather information from, so I was wondering if you guys could help explain a few things to me.

1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all, entangling alliances with none. Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance?

3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

isnt it all because Jews basically run everything in America.. you abandon your Israeli alliance you lose your next election.

The democrats and the republicans seem to only be figureheads/puppets to the Jewish regime that really runs the show.

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Originally posted by Dupz isnt it all because Jews basically run everything in America.. you abandon your Israeli alliance you lose your next election.

Such as? You do realize that the majority of Jews vote Democratic, don't you? There's a paradox.

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The democrats and the republicans seem to only be figureheads/puppets to the Jewish regime that really runs the show.

Please. This just reeks of anti-semitism. What do you have against Jews anyway?

i think its because of halocaust and the jewish right to have their own country.

Right now Israel invests largely in the american stock markets especially in NYSE, so if the alliance will be broken, its gona be a bad day on wall street.

What above is said is true about that jews hold a lot of large businesses in america and the jewish population is very big in US which equal to votes.

Jews vote both republicans and democrats, and not just democrats. A large percentage of them voted for bush

Most Jews vote Democrat (usually 60%) and around 10% vote Republican, which leaves the remaining 30% to be fought over (and baring in mind Jews mainly live in states crucial for elections like in some swing states it means they are very high up in the priorities of both parties)

Add to that somke of the largest donations to both parties come from Jews means they have to be kept sweet.

Anyway, to answer the OPs questions...

1) The US wasn't really bothered about Israel until after the 1967 and 1973 wars when Israel kicked ass and America thought "hmmm...how bout a strong ally in the middle of all that oil then?"

2) You get to be high up on the terrorists hit list, nothing much else seeing as the Cold War ended, the US is now a Middle East power in its own right rendering the strategic importance of Israel at a little above zero

3) See first two paragraphs and add loony right wing fundamentalist radical (and any other words that also describe al-Qaida) evangelical Christians that make up the Christian right which in turn make up the core Republican vote (plus look at the track record of Presidents/politicians going against Israel - aint too good!) Plus support for Israel is part of American culture, a bit like getting drunk is part of British culture

4) In order to have any kind of rational debate over the US-Israel relationship I suggest you edit that question out of your post ASAP!!!

Re: U.S.-Israel Alliance

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Originally posted by kush paintings I have looked on the web for information on a lot of questions I have, pretaining to why the U.S. has come to have an entangling alliance with Israel. I have not been satisfied with the sites I tried to gather information from, so I was wondering if you guys could help explain a few things to me.

Well its a bunch a questions - if you looked at other sources and still haven't figured it out I doubt you'll find your answers here.

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1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all, entangling alliances with none. Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

Similar the reasons the USA has an 'entangling' relationship with the UK, EU, Australia, Mexico, Canada... I don't see their relationship as anything different. Those nations simply don't expierence such intense hatered from the Arab world.

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2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance?

Many.

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3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

Its not always. There are many demos and repubs that are very strong critics and opponents of this alliance. However, many support it because they see a beseached country with the same character, values, and demorcratic principles of the USA, being attakced by forces firstly of the Cold War (USSR proxies) and now by forces of terror. Both are the USA's common enemy.

It is vital for the USA's interest not to have had a Western democracy fall to the USA just as it is vital for the USA not to allow a western democracy to fall to terror.

I wouldn't say it is necessary for selfish political reasons. However if we were to look at such Jews traditionally where overwhelmingly democract. Since Bush the lines are evening more out and more Jews are becoming Republicans due to the decline of the demo party.

The republicans have their evanglisits however.

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4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

Yes it has a right.

One might argue how comprehensive and just this right is, but it defintely has a right.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Many.

Gotta love the way you fail to name any!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Gotta love the way you fail to name any!

I've done it before in numerous thread, and as I mentioned they are many, and my time is not.

And as alluded to earliers, its like saying what benifits does the US recieve from allying with the UK?

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Originally posted by Yoepus I've done it before in numerous thread, and as I mentioned they are many, and my time is not. And as alluded to earliers, its like saying what benifits does the US recieve from allying with the UK?

Er...

They get an occupation force to take care of the South of Iraq

Edited to add:

You cant say "its like saying what benefits does the US recieve from allying with the UK" or France or anyone else for that matter cos they are completely different alliances. The US does not give the UK $5 billion every year for a start! Plus, the UK is America's poodle - we do what we are told, sir. With Israel the relationship is completely different. A great deal of people say that Israel controls American foreign policy and following the research I've just been doing on neoconservative foreign policy there is definately a good case to make for that being true. So the benefits to America for supporting Israel should be in proportion - ie America should be recieving a greater number of benefits than it does from its relationship with the UK - and can you honestly say that Israel even gives America [i]as much[i/] benefits as the UK, let alone much much much more benefits than America gets from the UK?

ehh this is bullshit you know the americans payed for the israilies to withdraw and now the israeli gov wants two billion more for the withdraw.

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Originally posted by ilya49 ... and the jewish population is very big in US which equal to votes.

i wouldnt say that's true:

US population: 295.7 million
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...r/2119rank.html

US jewish population: 6.1 million
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...l/usjewpop.html

US muslim population: 2 million to 7 million depending on study
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pu...fe/immigrat.htm

Re: U.S.-Israel Alliance

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Originally posted by kush paintings 1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all,

First mistake is this assumption -- you need to do some reading.

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Originally posted by kush paintings ...entangling alliances with none.

A Wilsonian illusion, that didn't last.

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Originally posted by kush paintings Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

The US is allied primarily with Israel in the Middle East because it feels it can identify moreso with the Israeli-Jewish experience than with that of the Arabs. Also because the Jews successfully integrated with the British and American cultures long before the problem of a state of Israel arose.

An element of racism is also to be noted, as well as common religious cause between Jew and Christian and bad blood between Christian and Muslim within the context of contention over the 'Holy Land' in the Middle Ages (we'll ignore that the Christians also went on Crusade against other Christians as well as the Jews during the Middle Ages for the purposes of this discussion).

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Originally posted by kush paintings 2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance? -- 3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

Good questions, but not politick to discuss here. You might want to browse through the mega Israeli-Palestine thread (warning: currently at 131 pages and mostly useless) for some ideas on the matter:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=247184

By way of more serious introduction, try to find a documentary called _The 50 Years War: Israel and the Arabs_ or perhaps the treatment in the CNN series _The Cold War_ at your local university AV center.

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Originally posted by kush paintings 4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

The answer will depend on the individual's religio-political perspective.

Israel's claim to the land is set on a biblical precedent and has arguments founded in the Jewish experience during the Holocaust (if you're an atheist, you will find this unconvincing).

Palestinian claim to the land is based on a Qur'anic precedent, their military conquest and residency of the area since the Middle Ages, and on the promises made to them for an autonomous country in exchange for their cooperation vis-a-vis the Nazis and the Young Turks during WWII (if you're an atheist, or of the opinion that the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence discussed nothing of the sort, you will find this unconvincing).

For a quick primer (which I have no interest in detailing further), read this thread:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=264113

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid ehh this is bullshit you know the americans payed for the israilies to withdraw and now the israeli gov wants two billion more for the withdraw.

3 billion, actually.

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Originally posted by George Smiley The US does not give the UK $5 billion every year for a start! Plus, the UK is America's poodle - we do what we are told, sir.

This is silly. The Brits are up for kicking anyone's ass whenever, just ask them to (get drunk and) show up -- they'll come with centuries of street fighting experience. The above could only be uttered by someone not alive during the reign of Iron Maggie and the Falklands. Looking at it from sheer practicality, George would be stupid not to ask the Brits to back him.

Hell George even asked Canada to back him -- we didn't go along (officially, exactly), but he did try to assemble a fraternity of complicit warmongers, and who can blame him?

What an irony it is that everyone pins the bully, imperialist, and warmongering label on the USA when the Brits have been doing it longer, more efficiently, and with more success than any Western power on the planet. The UK taught the US almost everything it knows about war; if anyone's the warmonger, it ain't the US -- it's the UK.

In fact the UK has had more years of experience in war, imperialism, managing, and modernizing foreign populations than all the years the US has been in existence. The UK is an older-brother ally to the USA, with much to teach from its pre-WWI experiences in the Empire. Half the USA's problem is that it is such a poor student.

Where Sith Lords go, the USA is the apprentice. The Sith Master is laughing in the shadows as everyone picks on the apprentice's faults and inexperience.

Calling the Brits a lapdog is beyond absurdly laughable, and demonstrates ignorance of basic modern history. If you really wanna bash warmongering and meddling in foreign affairs, if you must cast mud, for gawd's sake have some aim!

Cheers,
-N

Yea sorry, silly me, for a minute there I thought that the US didn't do whatever the UK wanted...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Yea sorry, silly me, for a minute there I thought that the US didn't do whatever the UK wanted...

No one said anything resembling the above... total irrelevance .

Small children, they will hear nothing but Pokeman and Dragon-Ball-Z.

-N

Man way to go Jews they are the reason as to why the muslims hate America. Because if it wasn't for America the jews wouldn't have the land they have now + Jerusalem. You know what I mean look at all the Israeli weapons they are mostly American plus Israels nukes are american made.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Edited to add:

I really wish you hadn't edited this post. Now I have to make a retort

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You cant say "its like saying what benefits does the US recieve from allying with the UK" or France or anyone else for that matter cos they are completely different alliances.

Yes I can and no they aren't.

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The US does not give the UK $5 billion every year for a start! Plus, the UK is America's poodle - we do what we are told, sir. With Israel the relationship is completely different.

Firstly, Israel receives only defense aid today from the USA. It receives this aid because it is the only USA ally under current threat of annihilation. In other periods of time, when the UK and France faced annihilation they recieved even greater military aid. After WWII they also recieved substantial economic assistance to allow them to restore their status to first rate economies.

Both the USA-France alliance and the USA-UK relationship are older than the state of Israel. You are indeed comparing a young-fling to a marriage.

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A great deal of people say that Israel controls American foreign policy and following the research I've just been doing on neoconservative foreign policy there is definately a good case to make for that being true.

Right

Don't forget how the British intelligene services convienced Bush of the non-existant WMD. British intelligence in Arabia was much more developed than American intelligence and they were the first to bring 'evidence' of WMD to the USA and the USA was proded by British to do something about it.

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So the benefits to America for supporting Israel should be in proportion - ie America should be recieving a greater number of benefits than it does from its relationship with the UK - and can you honestly say that Israel even gives America [i]as much[i/] benefits as the UK, let alone much much much more benefits than America gets from the UK?

An alliance is not a short term endevaour. Like a marriage you are in it during the good times and the bad. Sometimes you pull the party out of its misery, sometimes the other party pulls you out of your misery.

Just because the USA is expending several billion a year on Israel does not mean it is not receiving in turn. Israeli military research and technology development is perhaps one of the most innovative and developed in the world. The biggest client of Israel's military industry is the USA. Israel has developed many leading technologies and tactics to fight todays war. UAVs were being used by Israel since the early 80s if not earlier. They have only been adapted by the USA in the past 5 years.

Further more, Israelis high-tech industry is perhaps the most innovative in the world. Bringing you such wonders as instant messaging, the pentium chip, the celeron, integrated wifi, and more and more.

Theres a lot of trade between the two countries and a lot of co-operation. If it wasn't in the grand scheme of things a mutually benificial relationship it simply would not exist.

Just like if the UK-USA relationship wasn't mutually benificial it wouldn't exist.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Man way to go Jews they are the reason as to why the muslims hate America. Because if it wasn't for America the jews wouldn't have the land they have now + Jerusalem. You know what I mean look at all the Israeli weapons they are mostly American plus Israels nukes are american made.

Right, if only the Jews would have been exterminated the world would have no problems at all

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Man way to go Jews they are the reason as to why the muslims hate America. Because if it wasn't for America the jews wouldn't have the land they have now + Jerusalem. You know what I mean look at all the Israeli weapons they are mostly American plus Israels nukes are american made.

how bout we blame the germans (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the world) then?

there are many many serious problems in the middle east that have nothing at all to do with either america or israel. to put all blame & shame on those two countries is overly simplistic.

dont foget the good old UZIs, they were invented by Israelis, which the second weapon used by the terrorists (after ak-47)

Israel doesnt have any natural resource to export for the global trade. So what it does it uses its brains. It creates new technologies and sells it to the rest of the world. I say Israel today is the most advanced nation in the middle east.

In my opinion, I think it would be better if palestinians would put down the weapons and live in peace, maybe after that, the Israel eventially will lift the curfew and restrictions. And if palestinian works in Israel and lives there, his standards of living would be much more higher then right now.

What if palestine gets its land from Israel, then what, is it gonna be another third-world country like Syria??

Re: U.S.-Israel Alliance

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Originally posted by kush paintings I have looked on the web for information on a lot of questions I have, pretaining to why the U.S. has come to have an entangling alliance with Israel. I have not been satisfied with the sites I tried to gather information from, so I was wondering if you guys could help explain a few things to me. 1. Our country was founded and operated for a long time with the ideal of peaceful friendships with all, entangling alliances with none. Why have we developed an entangling alliance with Israel?

The Idea of Zionism arose in Great Britain in the late 1800s. The Big question back then was: How do we get rid of our Jews?(without toasting them in ovens) The Bright anwer came as: why dont we make a country for the Jews. And thus was born Zionism. As aforementioned the jews got the Cash. They had enuff of it to buy some land in palestine which they considered theirs for being their homeland 2000 such odd years ago. This whole concept was no more than an idea until the 1930s. The relocation was started by Adolf Hitler. The German jews who had enuff cash (in the millions) could get relocated to Palestine or to Africa by paying a substantial fee, an offer which Hitler didnt refuse. The rest got toasted in the ovens of the concentration camps (the ones who couldnt pay to get deported). When the allies found these camps and the survivors they felt a need to do something about the survivors. Clearly They couldnt go back to their old homes. So they looked at Zionism as an option. And they went for It. And at first it worked. And Too well. Millions of Jews wanted to go to Palestine (even ones from countries that werent at war, and for obvious reasons) So the answer was. We got to kick these guys we call "palestinians" out of some of their land and make room for all these jews. adn so it happened. And Israel was born. And all the jews rejoiced and most put all their efforts (and cash) towards the preservation of this State (And its Growth considering the flow of incoming Jews). These efforts included sementing a strong business/political military relationship thith the United States (where most of the richest Jews are anyways).

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2. What benefits do we get out of this alliance?

MONEY, OIL, PROTECTION, WEAPONS

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3. Why is this alliance so strongly supported by both Democrats and Republicans?

It's good for business.

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4. Does Israel have a right to land in the middle east?

From a Biblical standpoint yes. From a legal one no.

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Originally posted by GRinLoCK The German jews who had enuff cash (in the millions) could get relocated to Palestine or to Africa by paying a substantial fee, an offer which Hitler didnt refuse. The rest got toasted in the ovens of the concentration camps (the ones who couldnt pay to get deported).

This is a caricature.

Many Jews were German citizens, spoke German, and as mother-tongue spoke Yiddish, a predominately German, but also Slavic-French dialect of Hebrew. They owned businesses, they had families, and they considered themselves to be German people just as much as ethnic Germans. They very much looked upon Germany as their homeland, even after the anti-Jewish laws came into effect with the rise of the NSDAP.

You might find this surprising, but many Jewish families didn't want to leave Germany. Most decided to stay and weather the Nazi storm, which most ethnic Germans in the contemporary period considered stupid, laughable and a radical fad that would not last. Nazism rose due largely to German apathy, not popular support.

So Jews leaving Germany for anywhere else didn't have anything to do with "who had millions to spend" and who didn't. Primarily, no one predicted or could ever imagine what was on the horizon.

Many Jews simply didn't feel sufficient cause to leave until it was too late.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Yes I can and no they aren't.

Ok just off the top of my head using war as an example, Israel do not help out the US like the UK and France does. Its a completely one way alliance with Israel recieving the benefits

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Firstly, Israel receives only defense aid today from the USA. It receives this aid because it is the only USA ally under current threat of annihilation.

I'm sorry but that is simply rubbish. Who poses an existential threat to Israel today?! It has one of the most powerful armies in the world and is a nuclear power ffs!!

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In other periods of time, when the UK and France faced annihilation they recieved even greater military aid. After WWII they also recieved substantial economic assistance to allow them to restore their status to first rate economies.

Thats true but like I said, there hasn't been an existential threat to Israel since Yom Kippur. Also the US got so much more out of the Martial Plan. Can you imagine how much income the US recieves from European based American companies? That is a massive income and the same type of benefits the US recieves from similar examples in Israel pale into significance - Europe has 460,000,000 consumers, Israel has 6 million

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Both the USA-France alliance and the USA-UK relationship are older than the state of Israel. You are indeed comparing a young-fling to a marriage.

Yea a traditional two-way alliance

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Right

Here's a quote out of Anne Norton's book Leo Strauss and the Politics of American Empire...

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�The presumption that American interests are at one with the interests of Israel - whether for secular or religious reasons - is a corner stone of American foreign policy. The grand strategy that Paul Wolfowitz framed in the wake of 9/11 entailed a plan, announced throughout the media, for attacking not only Iraq but Syria and southern Lebanon. The United States, recognising its own power and using it wilfully, would inaugurate a new order in the Middle East. The plan was built conceptually and geographically around the centrality of Israel. Israel was democratic, hence protecting Israel was protecting democracy, however undemocratic the actions required, however undemocratic the regional consequences. States surrounding Israel, states which presented a threat to Israel, would be attacked � preemptively. This strategy could be understood as advancing American interests and security only if one saw those as identical to the interests and security of Israel.�

Also have a read of these...

Pat Buchanan - "Who's War" http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html

Tom Barry - "Douglas Feith: Portrait of a Neoconservative" http://www.antiwar.com/barry/?articleid=3545

And straight from the horses mouth - Robert Kagan & William Kristol - "A green light for Israel" http://www.newamericancentury.org/m...st-20010827.htm

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Don't forget how the British intelligene services convienced Bush of the non-existant WMD. British intelligence in Arabia was much more developed than American intelligence and they were the first to bring 'evidence' of WMD to the USA and the USA was proded by British to do something about it.

I dont think British intelliegence is more developed than America anywhere in the world!! As for the UK producing intelligence about WMDs that is true but what's all this about pushing America to do something about it?! The "dodgy dossier" was designed to win public support, not convince America to attack Iraq!!! America had already decided to attack as soon as the planes hit the Twin Towers, and Tony Blair knew he would have to be involved, so the intelligence was for the British publics benefit, not for America's

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Just because the USA is expending several billion a year on Israel does not mean it is not receiving in turn. Israeli military research and technology development is perhaps one of the most innovative and developed in the world. The biggest client of Israel's military industry is the USA. Israel has developed many leading technologies and tactics to fight todays war. UAVs were being used by Israel since the early 80s if not earlier. They have only been adapted by the USA in the past 5 years. Further more, Israelis high-tech industry is perhaps the most innovative in the world. Bringing you such wonders as instant messaging, the pentium chip, the celeron, integrated wifi, and more and more. Theres a lot of trade between the two countries and a lot of co-operation. If it wasn't in the grand scheme of things a mutually benificial relationship it simply would not exist.

What...a...load...of...crap

Its called being a modern economy, funnily enuf quite a few countries produce similar commodittees as the Israelis for America to buy, and guess what? They dont get billions in military aid because of it. Sorry but Israeli industry simply does not explain the unusual alliance. As for "a lot of trade" that doesn't explain it either. America has "a lot of trade" with quite a few countries. The EU is America's major trading partner (and Israel's) but do we get billions of military and economic aid?! No we get tariffs!!




I think you're avoiding a very significant reality and that is religion. No matter how much you rabbit on about how good Israeli industry is, it will never explain what IS a very unique alliance. The UK and France produce high-tech commodities and the alliance both of those two have with America is very different from Israels. You can say they are the same all you want but they simply are not. The UK and France's alliance is enshrined in NATO - we are equal partners. We help each other out. Israel does no such thing for America.

Israel used to serve a strategic purpose and now the Cold War is over that purpose is dead. America does not need Israel to protect oil, it is quite capable, as recently proven, of looking after Middle Eastern oil on its own. Yet the alliance is as strong as ever. Israel gives less to America than the UK or France does, yet Israel gets so much more than either of those two. Now you're gonna turn round and talk to me about this supposed existential threat - but it does not exist. That leaves us with religion. Support for Israel is inbedded in American culture because of apocolyptic evangelical Christain beliefs. 70 million evangelicals in America, thats a quarter of the population, and they form an extremely powerful bloc in American politics. They support Israel cos they think they have some kind of affinity with Jews (obviously they have little grasp over history but anyway) They need Israel for the second coming of Jesus and there are many many religious head cases in the American government who share these fundamentalist beliefs, including Bush

Kushpaintings, read Noam Chomsky's Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians . This book will contain answers to many of your questions.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Kushpaintings, read Noam Chomsky's Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians . This book will contain answers to many of your questions.

Any good is it?! I got my mum to buy it me a bit back for my dissertation but haven't read any of it!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Any good is it?! I got my mum to buy it me a bit back for my dissertation but haven't read any of it!

Oh yeah. Just check out the reviews at Amazon. I linked it in my last post.

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