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-- Recording Techniques, Vinyl Noise, Dynamic Range Compression

Recording Techniques, Vinyl Noise, Dynamic Range Compression

So my buddy records a mix, straight out of his mixer into a MD player.

I listened to the master on the MD, all the whole way through sounded great. except for that it was too quiet.

So I recorded to wav using total recorder(http://download.cnet.com/downloads/...lst-7-1.7919209).

then I normalized it with a normalizer program(http://www.neon1.net/prog/normalizer.html)

I burnt a master CD(using nero http://www.ahead.de/), took it home and tested it on my stereo, worked great.

I duped the master, gave the CDs to him, and at 52 minutes in it starts skippin!

I'm not sure where the skip was introduced, but I intend to find out, when I do this over again. my guess is my computer choked on the huge 74 minute recording.

I put this information here, both to get help, and to provide info to everyone else who wants to record goodsounding DJ mixed CDs.

he has asked me to see if I can take some of the vinyl noise out of the recording as well.

does anyone know any good tools for removing vinyl noise, that won't damage the quality of the original recording?

what about for compression (not filesize compression, the kind of compression that squeezes everything so it sounds tighter)

I want some simple, easy to install, easy to use, low resource using programs(like the normalizer one). I know that soundforge or cooledit or cubase will do these things, but I really can't install that sort of thing at work, and they are not freeware either so, I'd have to buy them

so any help?

You say you burnt a master CD and tried it at home. Was there a skip in this? If not, then it's nothing to do with the recording on the computer.

What speed did you record the copy at? You should never burn an audio CD at more than 4x. Recording CD's at any speed inevitably leads to writing errors, and the higher the speed the greater the number of errors. Data CD's can recover from this using error correction, but with audio CD's every bit on the CD is read by the CD player as music. So if one bit is wrong, and is then marked as an error and then corrected, all of this bad data is read by the CD player and sounds awful when played through the speakers. If you record at no more than 4x however, the rate of errors is very low and you rarely get any bad sectors on any given CD.

When you burn copies of the CD, try to do it from the computer rather than using a master CD. Use a burner like Feurio or Nero to create the tracksplits. If you do it from a master CD, any errors that occurred during the burn (like I talked about above) will be copied on to the new CD. Also, you are much less likely to get a buffer under-run if you burn from the HDD rather than another CD.

The best way of recording a set is to have a reasonably fast PC. Anything over 400Mhz should be perfectly fine, but your dad's old P90 laptop probably isn't going to be up to the job.

You should always (if possible) record straight from the mixer to the PC. All in-between recording (yes, even an MD) will lead to a loss in quality.

Don't bother with any vinyl noise removing utilities. All they do is remove the frequencies and patterns related to vinyl noise from the recording, and this will always remove bits of the music that you don't want taken out. The best thing to do is before you start the set, give your needles a good clean and do the same with all of the records that you intend to play during the set. Plus, the vinyl noise makes it sound authentic! Why would you want to get rid of it?

The program I use to record my sets is just Creative Wave Studio. All you need is a program that records what comes into the line in on the soundcard straight to the hard drive as a WAV. Wave Studio is a small program so it doesn't take up too much of the system resources, and does a fine job of recording the WAV. CoolEdit or Sound Forge are just overkill. Wave Studio is on the driver CD of the SoundBlaster 16 soundcard and probably others as well. If not, I'm sure you know at least one person with a soundblaster 16

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the help dude.

to answer your question, I brought the CD home, listened to it, and it seemed fine. it didn't start skipping until the 50 minute mark, I guess I didn't listen that far.

I had already listened to the entire mix about 3 times that day on my MD, I was getting sick of it.

so since I figured the master CD was fine, I just duplicated that 20 times. (I used a CD duper machine, you load it up with blanks, and it spits out copies, it writes at 4x)

and it has no tracksplits, it's one big long track, that's how he wants it.

I listened to the wav file on my computer today, it did indeed have skips in it, my computer must have hiccuped doing the recording.

so, I cleared a few gigs of space for the mix again, got back the original MD recording(yes I know that it's a bit of quality loss).

the original MD does not skip, so I still have a clean copy.

So, I am going to reboot, go for lunch, and let it record the set again while not using my computer, check for skips(doh, I have to listen to the whole thing over again), then normalize then burn the master and check for skips(listen again), then dupe.

I'm gonna forget vinyl noise reduction.. he likes the beginning where you hear him drop the needle, but he asked if I could maybe take the rest of the noise out. sounds like I won't be able to without comprimising the quality of the recording.

oh well, thanks very much for the reply dude.

DAMN! I got back from lunch, I left the recording going while I was gone so that the computer would have it's full attention on recording. i turned off anything that could screw it up, turned off system sounds, virus checker, screen saver, closed all programs etc.

the recording still starts skipping at 50 minutes in!

I have a 766Mhz computer, 5Gb of space free, 256Mb of ram, and I used total recorder to do the recording.

Anyone ever had these kinds of problems?

Hmmm... Interesting.

Does the second recording skip at exactly the same time as the first one? If so, it is definitely something to do with the minidisc. There is no way that the computer would start coughing at exactly the same place twice in a row. Are you sure you've listened to the MD all the way through?

Guys just a thought............. after owning it for a year, My sony minidisc player began to skip at the 64 minute mark. it would do it consistantly. i replaced the battery and cleaned the insides (incl. lazer) and it stopped doing it. just a day ago the battery got low and guess what? it started to skip at the 64 minute mark..................

yeah.. shit my buddy did it again, burned it to CD, it skips the whole way thru! damn!

curse you evil machines! this set was destined to be listened only to by the people present at it's recording maybe...

aghhgh!

Question and Answer:

Reusing the same Minidiscs will obviously wear them out..first, make sure your using a new disc and most importantly, use the power adapter of the md player rather than any lame battery to have a constant supply of power...minidiscs will definitely skip if your batteries/power is low...

Question: I cant seem to connect my md player straight to my mixer, i have to plug it into my stereo through the headphone jack, and when i connect it in this manner, obviously i cant monitor my set..any advice??

Well.. I just bought the minidisc player, it's practically brand new, as are are the mini discs themselves, sony brand 74minutes. they've been recorded over about 3 times at the most, they are supposed to last thousands!

the player itself didn't come with an ac adapter (cheap bastards), but I bought some 1700Ma rechargable batteries. it is supposed to play for 48 hours and record for 8 on a standard battery. with these batteries it should last even longer.

is it unreasonable to expect it to record 1/8th of the time it's advertised too?

As for your question. you need an RCA to 1/8" stereo jack, it has two RCA coming out one side, you plug these into the record out of your mixer(most decent mixers have these, if you only have a master out you will also need an RCA splitter, which does subtract a little from the signal if I am not mistake). the other end of the RCA to stereo mini plug, that goes into the input of the MD.

I'm thinking I should take this thing back. I've recorded literally hundreds of CDs using total recorder wave files mp3s various brands of blank CDs and burners, and had next to zero problems.

no, the only variable is this MD player, and it's getting all messed up. I suspect sony has some anticopyright bullshit in there that stops you from making a perfect recording.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic I suspect sony has some anticopyright bullshit in there that stops you from making a perfect recording.

No, this isn't the case. There is a copyright thing that stops you making second-generation digital copies of discs (i.e. you can't record an MD from a CD through an optical link and then record the MD to another MD through an optical link) but there is nothing to stop you doing as many analogue copies as you want.

Definitley try to get a power adapter for the MD. This will almost certainly help. You can probably pick one up at radioshack for about $5 or so.

i'll clear up some issues surrounding minidiscs...

first... they're supposed to have infinte generations, or recordings
so the minidisc shouldn't be the problem...
and i should know, i work with these things day in and day out at the radio station

as for the copyright thing or whatever... you can only record 2 slaves off one master disc

i feel myself to be somewhat an expert on this subject... prove me wrong though... i'd like to see it

anywho... anything surrounding minidiscs... feel free to ask

OK.. so, I guess I will go look for an adapter, DC in 3v it says beside so any 3volt should do then? probably a lot more for the sony brand one.

as for this copy, it just didn't work out, I think we are going to ditch the idea, erase the disks and start over..

Shockwav, you wanted questions here's a few:

-is DJTJ right when he says that the copyright stuff applies only to the digital transfer? because I am using completely analogue here.
-the various modes of compression, stereo, mono, LP4, LP2, is it worth using them?
-ATRAC in general is this a good format to be using to record DJ sets out of mixers, vinyl through amplifiers with phono preamps out the headphones etc.? and to play back into a computer, record and burn to CD? because that is what I got it for.
-Portability, mine seems to skip when i walk a bit, another thing I hoped to avoid moving to digital. do all MDs have this problem? I haven't had a chance to take it snowboarding yet, but I plan on it. that was another reason I bought it.
-New MD players, they are supposed to support digital data transfer through USB(mine was advertised to, but doesn't), do you think i should take it back and get a better one?
-and related to the previous question, is Sony really the best choice? I have skepticisim for them, being a music label, they are going to be putting anti copying stuff in my way. when using for non coyright infringing use, I don't want my audio quality changed, or invisibly watermarked in any way. do other companys make comparable or even better portable player/recorders than Sony?

by the way my buddy has this track from your sig on vinyl, Novy vs Eniac - Pumpin', awesome track!

in the streets it's gonna rock right.. :P

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic OK.. so, I guess I will go look for an adapter, DC in 3v it says beside so any 3volt should do then? probably a lot more for the sony brand one. as for this copy, it just didn't work out, I think we are going to ditch the idea, erase the disks and start over.. Shockwav, you wanted questions here's a few: -is DJTJ right when he says that the copyright stuff applies only to the digital transfer? because I am using completely analogue here. -the various modes of compression, stereo, mono, LP4, LP2, is it worth using them? -ATRAC in general is this a good format to be using to record DJ sets out of mixers, vinyl through amplifiers with phono preamps out the headphones etc.? and to play back into a computer, record and burn to CD? because that is what I got it for. -Portability, mine seems to skip when i walk a bit, another thing I hoped to avoid moving to digital. do all MDs have this problem? I haven't had a chance to take it snowboarding yet, but I plan on it. that was another reason I bought it. -New MD players, they are supposed to support digital data transfer through USB(mine was advertised to, but doesn't), do you think i should take it back and get a better one? -and related to the previous question, is Sony really the best choice? I have skepticisim for them, being a music label, they are going to be putting anti copying stuff in my way. when using for non coyright infringing use, I don't want my audio quality changed, or invisibly watermarked in any way. do other companys make comparable or even better portable player/recorders than Sony?

shockwav? anybody?

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic OK.. so, I guess I will go look for an adapter, DC in 3v it says beside so any 3volt should do then? probably a lot more for the sony brand one. as for this copy, it just didn't work out, I think we are going to ditch the idea, erase the disks and start over.. Shockwav, you wanted questions here's a few: -is DJTJ right when he says that the copyright stuff applies only to the digital transfer? because I am using completely analogue here. -the various modes of compression, stereo, mono, LP4, LP2, is it worth using them? -ATRAC in general is this a good format to be using to record DJ sets out of mixers, vinyl through amplifiers with phono preamps out the headphones etc.? and to play back into a computer, record and burn to CD? because that is what I got it for. -Portability, mine seems to skip when i walk a bit, another thing I hoped to avoid moving to digital. do all MDs have this problem? I haven't had a chance to take it snowboarding yet, but I plan on it. that was another reason I bought it. -New MD players, they are supposed to support digital data transfer through USB(mine was advertised to, but doesn't), do you think i should take it back and get a better one? -and related to the previous question, is Sony really the best choice? I have skepticisim for them, being a music label, they are going to be putting anti copying stuff in my way. when using for non coyright infringing use, I don't want my audio quality changed, or invisibly watermarked in any way. do other companys make comparable or even better portable player/recorders than Sony?

i'm currently on vacation, i'll be able to answer your questions better when i get back to the radio station

ok bro, no problem

happy new year, have a good vacation.

I just wanted to add some things to take into consideration.

About the skipping: maybe defragmenting your hdd might help. Just a guess though since Total Recorder handles huge records quite nicely.

Atrac is a psychoacoustic lossy compression scheme (like mp3) so filtering is not a good idea. Especially noise reduction using a so called noise print since it samples the frequency spectrum from a piece of pure noise and then subtracts these frequencies form the rest of the recording. But due to the masking process of the Atrac format these frequencies may be more or less present in the recording than in reality which results in too much or to little subtraction.

I suppose crackle filters which reduce those pops can still be used though (although I know of no click-and-go freeware which has good results)

I think compression (the "make-it-loud" type) can be a good thing. From my experience the volume during the transitions is much louder than a single track (except if he is good at handling the EQs). You might want to limit the signal before normalizing.

Just my 2 �-cents (Hooray! New currency!)

In response of the questions by Ravinglunatic

1) SCMS copy protection
Yes DJTJ is right. The copy protection only applies for digital transfer. It was put there, because with digital transfer it's possible to make bit to bit (=perfect) copies. Big labels don't like you to do that, so they inserted that SCMS stuff. If you make a copy of a copy of a copy... in analog transfer, each time it will add noise and the signal will get worse, so after some time it will become useless.
Pro models (the one's in studio) have an option to deactivate that protection. And some portable MD's can be tweaked so you deactivate that too.

2) compression modes
SP (normal use) works at 292 kbps. For most people that's equivalent to CD quality. Nice.
Most of the time you won't use mono play. It's more used in radio features or any other place where a mic is used.
LP2 (long play x2) works at 292/2=146kbps. Most people won't notice the difference with SP, so it's still useable. Of course there's a difference, but it's still nice enough.
LP4 (long play x4) works at 292/4=73kbps. I'm sorry to say, but the sound isn't great here, so you'll most likely forget this one.

So it looks like you'll be using SP most, followed by LP2.

3) ATRAC is good enough for recording mixtapes. Imagine that most people still record on regular tapes, with lot's of background noise and hiss. It's definately better. But you can consider recording straight to the computer, that's one step less. If your comp is close, I'd record straight into it.

4) Got the MZ-R700 from Sony myself. Hasn't skipped on me yet. Most recent MD players have pretty efficient anti-shock nowadays. Snowboarding? I'd say it'll manage if you're an experienced snowboarder

5) Well personally I got mine without the PC transfer feature. Don't need it. But if you're a person that likes to put mp3's from his comp on the MD fast, it might be useful. If you don't have the pc transfer thingy, you'll have to record it realtime through the optical or line input (if your soundcard the corresponding outputs of course)

6) As far as I heard, Sharp and Sony would be the best. It is said that the newest ATRAC of Sharp is more advanced than the one of Sony. But only audiophiles will tell the difference. Of course those two brands are not the cheapest. I have the MZ-R700 from Sony, and I'm very happy about it. Definately a recommendation. And the SCMS copy protection is in most portable MD's, not only Sony's.


If you need info about anything concerning MD's, visit www.minidisc.org They have equipment reviews/comparisons, tweaks (defeat SCMS on some models and such)...

Hope this helped,
Dj Thy

thanks man!

pretty much what i figured...

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