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Does Religion Create A More Moral Society? Not According to This Study
First off, ignore the assumptions and poor inferences from the article and stick with the statistical findings. The author tends to confuse correlation with causation. With that caveat in mind, it is interesting to note that there appears to be a definite correlation between amoral behavior and religion. Thus while we can�t say that religion causes this behavior ( yet 
? ), we can most certainly say that more religion does little to improve society.
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| The Times Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today. According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems. The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society. It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality. Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its �spiritual capital�. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills. The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: �Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world. �In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. �The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.� Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions. He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy. The study concluded that the US was the world�s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from � uniquely high� adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested. Mr Paul said: �The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.� He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added. Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. �I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,� he added. He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said. �The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. �The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.� http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...troberstonrules |
Hey,
Very interesting article, although you failed to mention another important difference b/w the US and all the other Western countries: that the other countries are all socialist, while the US staunchly anti-socialist. This also has significant repercussions.
What would happen if you had a very religious, but socialist country, such as Portugal and Ireland? Do you have any stats on those countries?
And conversely, what would happen in a secular, but highly capitalist country: like Singapore?
Pure bullocks.
How about comparing non-Christian countries?
i.e. Turkey, Morocco, Japan, India, etc.
If he did so he would find an amazing revelation that brings a correlation between democracy and judeo-Christian beliefs of 1!
It depends on how religion is taught and used. People tend to hide behind the mask of religion.. which is a common problem on today's society. You can not enforce it, but with good examples society would definetly change.
My theory is.. IF you are born and raised in a religious environment, where everything is censored to you, once you are exposed to all the things you never saw or what-not.. that will make you a rebel.. why?!?!.. Temptetion will be stronger then if you were to be tested all along while applying your own religious beliefs to whats right or wrong.
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| Originally posted by HardTranceProd Hey, Very interesting article, although you failed to mention another important difference b/w the US and all the other Western countries: that the other countries are all socialist, while the US staunchly anti-socialist. This also has significant repercussions. What would happen if you had a very religious, but socialist country, such as Portugal and Ireland? Do you have any stats on those countries? And conversely, what would happen in a secular, but highly capitalist country: like Singapore? |
Legend
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Pure bullocks. How about comparing non-Christian countries? i.e. Turkey, Morocco, Japan, India, etc. If he did so he would find an amazing revelation that brings a correlation between democracy and judeo-Christian beliefs of 1! |
There is one other crucial factor you're forgetting...
CLIMATE.
I argue that people in the Northern regions have more moderate personalities compared with the hot, flaring tempers that prevail in the Southern ones where temperatures soar and the climate is more tropical.
You can see this dichotomy even in the US, where states in New England have less crime and social problems than ones in the South (and Canada consequently even less crime). And even in Europe, the cultures with a Southern (Mediterranean) climate are marred by Mafia (e.g. Sicily) and staunch religiosity.
BTW Occrider, we really should get together for a beer sometime, since we both live in DC: I get the feeling we think alike on many topics.
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| Originally posted by occrider Well Japan is in there. |
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It wouldn't quite do to compare others because they would be 2nd or 3rd world countries. |
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But Turkey and Japan would make that correlation less than 1. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus Well perhaps next time you should cite the study in addition to a bad news article about the study |
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In addition notes like "take bible literaly" and "absolutely believe in God" (as opposed to Gods) bring bias against all non-Judeau-Christian religions. |
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Why not? If the argument is that religion causes social amorality then you have to accommodate for all other factors, government being one. |
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No, I am saying all Christian (and Jewish) nations are democracies. Therefore Christanity must cause democracy... |
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Like I said earlier: this study is bullocks. |
I have to agree with Yoepus on this one. Plus the study contradicts itself. In order for a society to be religious, they need to actually follow the teaching of that religion. If they don't, it's not a religious society. (Perhaps religious is a poor choice of terms to use here, what I mean by religious is practicing.) Just going to church/temple/mosque and believing in God doesn't make you religious. Practicing your faith does.
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| Originally posted by shaolin_Z I have to agree with Yoepus on this one. Plus the study contradicts itself. In order for a society to be religious, they need to actually follow the teaching of that religion. If they don't, it's not a religious society. (Perhaps religious is a poor choice of terms to use here, what I mean by religious is practicing.) Just going to church/temple/mosque and believing in God doesn't make you religious. Practicing your faith does. |
Let's let the more religious take over more than they have so the disease and murder and rampant debauchery they are being a part of will kill them off for us.
How bout that?
MrS
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| Originally posted by shaolin_Z I have to agree with Yoepus on this one. Plus the study contradicts itself. In order for a society to be religious, they need to actually follow the teaching of that religion. If they don't, it's not a religious society. (Perhaps religious is a poor choice of terms to use here, what I mean by religious is practicing.) Just going to church/temple/mosque and believing in God doesn't make you religious. Practicing your faith does. |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew It still proves that a country can have "morals" without being religious. Just take my own country there, top scorer in almost every graph when it comes to being as litle religious as possible, also follows the book the least. How come we can still have such a low crime rate then? No one here is saying that religions creates crime, but ppl are saying that you can have perfectly fine "morals" without being religious. |
Did anyone read what I wrote in my second post?
Occrider one more question for you
The communist regime in Soviet Russia was the most secular, godless culture you can imagine. Yet was it "moral"? Well, human life didn't count for shit, people were killed by the thousands.
If we consider one of your statistics -- the # of abortions -- Soviet Russia had an extremely high rate of abortions, which were completely socially acceptable and looked upon favorably. Same in China, abortions are popular and common, while the society is secular.
So at least one of the "results" of this "study" -- that secularism implies fewer abortions -- doesn't hold.
BTW, Soviet Russia was a fully industrialized and developed nation, with superb education and 100% literacy.
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| Originally posted by HardTranceProd Occrider one more question for you The communist regime in Soviet Russia was the most secular, godless culture you can imagine. Yet was it "moral"? Well, human life didn't count for shit, people were killed by the thousands. If we consider one of your statistics -- the # of abortions -- Soviet Russia had an extremely high rate of abortions, which were completely socially acceptable and looked upon favorably. Same in China, abortions are popular and common, while the society is secular. So at least one of the "results" of this "study" -- that secularism implies fewer abortions -- doesn't hold. BTW, Soviet Russia was a fully industrialized and developed nation, with superb education and 100% literacy. |
I see what you're saying, it's more of a satisfiability thing for the converse, rather than establishing a 'rule' per se for the orig. statement, I see
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| Originally posted by occrider Well I was unaware of the location of the article until someone requested more info ... but here you go: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html |
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Well that would only seemingly impact Japan with respect to the first question. They are monotheistic so the second question would still be applicable. |
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Because that would introduce sampling bias in that there are too many discrepenancies within the sampling group. Be focusing the study on prosperous democracies you isolate out some of the causal factors in amoral behavior such as third world conditions, dictatorial governments, corruption, etc. The idea is to make the sampling size as similar as possible in every respect except for the hypothesis being studied ... in this case secularism. However, considering how 3rd world countries are predominantly religious as well, I think it would only hurt your cause. |
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| Well that's simply a strawman. |
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The study isn't bollocks, the assumptions asserted in the article are, and I pointed that out myself. The statistical findings are valid, and my thread title points out a valid statistical inference from the study, that religiosity does not make society more moral, and the absense of religion does not result in amoral behavior much to the chagrin of televangelist's I'm certain. |
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| Originally posted by Yoepus pfff. like I'm gonna read that! |
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[13] Among the developing democracies absolute belief in God, attendance of religious services and Bible literalism vary over a dozenfold, atheists and agnostics five fold, prayer rates fourfold, and acceptance of evolution almost twofold. Japan, Scandinavia, and France are the most secular nations in the west, the United States is the only prosperous first world nation to retain rates of religiosity otherwise limited to the second and third worlds (Bishop; PEW). Prosperous democracies where religiosity is low (which excludes the U.S.) are referred to below as secular developing democracies. [14] Correlations between popular acceptance of human evolution and belief in and worship of a creator and Bible literalism are negative (Figure 1). The least religious nation, Japan, exhibits the highest agreement with the scientific theory, the lowest level of acceptance is found in the most religious developing democracy, the U.S. [15] A few hundred years ago rates of homicide were astronomical in Christian Europe and the American colonies (Beeghley; R. Lane). In all secular developing democracies a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows (Figure 2). The especially low rates in the more Catholic European states are statistical noise due to yearly fluctuations incidental to this sample, and are not consistently present in other similar tabulations (Barcley and Tavares). Despite a significant decline from a recent peak in the 1980s (Rosenfeld), the U.S. is the only prosperous democracy that retains high homicide rates, making it a strong outlier in this regard (Beeghley; Doyle, 2000). Similarly, theistic Portugal also has rates of homicides well above the secular developing democracy norm. Mass student murders in schools are rare, and have subsided somewhat since the 1990s, but the U.S. has experienced many more (National School Safety Center) than all the secular developing democracies combined. Other prosperous democracies do not significantly exceed the U.S. in rates of nonviolent and in non-lethal violent crime (Beeghley; Farrington and Langan; Neapoletan), and are often lower in this regard. The United States exhibits typical rates of youth suicide (WHO), which show little if any correlation with theistic factors in the prosperous democracies (Figure 3). The positive correlation between pro-theistic factors and juvenile mortality is remarkable, especially regarding absolute belief, and even prayer (Figure 4). Life spans tend to decrease as rates of religiosity rise (Figure 5), especially as a function of absolute belief. Denmark is the only exception. Unlike questionable small-scale epidemiological studies by Harris et al. and Koenig and Larson, higher rates of religious affiliation, attendance, and prayer do not result in lower juvenile-adult mortality rates on a cross-national basis.<6> [16] Although the late twentieth century STD epidemic has been curtailed in all prosperous democracies (Aral and Holmes; Panchaud et al.), rates of adolescent gonorrhea infection remain six to three hundred times higher in the U.S. than in less theistic, pro-evolution secular developing democracies (Figure 6). At all ages levels are higher in the U.S., albeit by less dramatic amounts. The U.S. also suffers from uniquely high adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, which are starting to rise again as the microbe�s resistance increases (Figure 7). The two main curable STDs have been nearly eliminated in strongly secular Scandinavia. Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S. (Figure 8). Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data. Early adolescent pregnancy and birth have dropped in the developing democracies (Abma et al.; Singh and Darroch), but rates are two to dozens of times higher in the U.S. where the decline has been more modest (Figure 9). Broad correlations between decreasing theism and increasing pregnancy and birth are present, with Austria and especially Ireland being partial exceptions. Darroch et al. found that age of first intercourse, number of sexual partners and similar issues among teens do not exhibit wide disparity or a consistent pattern among the prosperous democracies they sampled, including the U.S. A detailed comparison of sexual practices in France and the U.S. observed little difference except that the French tend - contrary to common impression - to be somewhat more conservative (Gagnon et al.). |
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Hmm i thought Japanese believed in many gods... Shintoism and all where "powers" live in nature. I guess I could actually read this: http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/reader/japan.html if I actually care some more... |
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Then the author should have examined: A) Counties with in a state of the union and compare and contrast those. i.e. the 254 counties of Texas, etc. B) The USA states against each other C) Canadian Proviences D) French Proviences E)... you get the idea. Compare each society to itself and then find it there is a common thread or not... of course even this could have many other factors that you can't account for but it would defintely repersent a better attempt. |
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I know it is, I made it to paradoy the conclusion made by the author of this research, |
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Again the sampling size is so small and the possibility of so many other accountable and unaccountable factors could effect the results in this study. If you are to make the statement that you hav edone in the title of this thread, then a study similar to one I outlined above would either validate or refute it. But comparing 20 something different western societies to try and find if religious participation effects morality without mitigating key factors such as GDP per cap., income disparity, culture, and so on is well, bullock. |
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Just a quick thought. I think that a religious person would be more likely to behave in an amoral way, due to a simple fact that the only person he feels he has to answer to is god, and since god has a tendancy to forgive, the consequences of that persons actions for that person at least stop after he leaves the confession booth, free of the burden of his amoral behavior.
That's an interesting thought but I don't think it's the right explanation.
Simply put, religion = hipocrisy = CORRUPTION. That's probably a much better explanation for the results.
By the way people, do you realize that the (ignorant) Americans who put "Got Jesus" bumperstickers on their cars, are not necessarily good examples of religious people? That is, people in other countries approach religion as something much deeper and more complicated than praying that your team wins in the NFL?
I still claim that a country's climate has a lot to do with it, no matter how silly this sounds. Countries with a northern climate are more moderate and secular and have less crime/social problems.
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| Originally posted by HardTranceProd I still claim that a country's climate has a lot to do with it, no matter how silly this sounds. Countries with a northern climate are more moderate and secular and have less crime/social problems. |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew I think you have a point, but there are many countries that dissaproves your point too. Russia is a very immoral country, with lots of crime, and so are lots of other former sovjet states. |
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Also some warm countries like australia is quite secular, and has a lower crime rate too. |
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| Originally posted by HardTranceProd HOWEVER... it's secular. Extremely secular even now. And BTW the former Soviet states with a lot of crime/religion are in the Southern parts. |
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