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-- how long is it before the internet is "policed" like the rest of society?
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how long is it before the internet is "policed" like the rest of society?

How long do you think the wild ways of the internet will remain? If you think about it there isn't that much control over what someone does on the internet. As much as the internet is still used for legitimate business, you can still gamble, look at porn, and download pretty much copyrighted music, television shows, software, movies, ect. Do you think that one day internet culture will be monitored to the extent of our day to day lives? Picture what it would be like if downloading a copyrighted mp3 was treated the same way as if you walked out of HMV with a cd. Spamming could be the equivalent of littering. Or how about a $50 ticket for looking at porn underage--how many poor teenage boys would go down?

Or do you think that will technology always be one step ahead of the law?

The internet is being policed as we speak, but it's a war of the nerds. Think about it, constant anti-spam, anti-download, and security featuers to keep minors out of certain sites are always being implemented, upgraded and maintained, but with millions of users there will always be loopholes through any internet-based system.
That's why for instance they always release updates for anti-viruses, no matter what kind of measures they have set up to prevent trojans and intrusions onto computers there will always be the bored surfer itching to try out a new line of code he added to the latest virus.
In regards to downloading music, bitorrent, irc, and ftp's are near impossible to shut down. The only way they'll prevent mp3's from being leaked onto the internet they need to prevent people from ripping the cds. But to do so they need to stop making programs that allow you to do so, and any person with some computer programming knowledge can do that...

Complete restraint over the internet? Probably never, but if it does happen its for our children's children to worry about. For now free axs to 1337 s3>< etc.etc.

I'm already a member of the Internet Police

quote:

Originally posted by [NFC]Wave

Hey! Easy there cowboy... calm down or ELSE!

I think one of the main things to consider with policing the internet is the fact that laws can only apply to servers/computers in the country where it resides. If someone is conducting illegal activity in one country, it may have different penalties than another (if any). For example, Sealand is a self standing country off the coast of UK which has claimed to be a data and content haven. After 9-11, they announced that the operation would block initiatives "contrary to international custom and practice." This includes Child Pornography and malicious hacking. However, there are still countless laws and regulations that do not apply if your information is stored on or activity runs through Sealand.

In North America our privacy is certainly shrinking. MP3s are a good example of this.... where people can legally search your PRIVATE space based on traffic monitored. In most cases, I think it's necessary for breaking a child porn ring or something... but then again where does it stop?? Who decides the limits of privacy? And THEN... who polices the police?

I think the only way that it can truly be policed and monitored is if the world unites and is ordered by one government. Don't skoff at the idea... it's been prophesized as the "end of times"... but then again... who wants to believe such religious drivell? Let's just have fun and not worry about scary (yet VERY possible) stuff like THAT

Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

He's already policing you...

quote:

Originally posted by Jem_hadar

Buhahahaa...


Now, as far as ISPs go... is Rogers able to monitor the EXACT files you are transfering through their network? And are they able to access your computer to "inspect" the files that you are storing on it? Maybe, maybe not... but as far as my router's firewall goes, they can kiss my ass.

(not that I have something to hide, but in case I did, I'm set)

actually a lot of countries do police the internet VERY heavily. There was recently a article in wired magazine that listed how certain countries are blocking up 90% of the internet from even entering thier country.

I'll see if I can find it online.
---------------------------
edit: Ok I just check wired magazines archieves and it hasn't been released there yet... I guess it was only in Septembers issue.

I pulled out the article and Saudi Arabia was actually the most censor crazy while China was the most prosecution crazy over breaking the law.
Saudi blocks 100% of porn sites, 92% of Gambling, 85% of drug related sites, 67% anonymizers, humour 37% and political events at 23% all at the national level.
China by comparison only blocks 39% of porn sites, but they monitor cyber cafes, requires all sites to be registered, filter all content at the national level and have strict disiplinary actions against offenders. Offenders in China of political speech even include the amnesty.org and news.bbc.co.uk! Whereas Singapore blocks 0% and has no prosecution proceedures.

what does .cn mean? (from post below)

quote:

Originally posted by nusty countries are blocking up 90% of the internet

.cn

canada also restricts free speach on the internet. Anything that the government deems as "hateful" can be prosecuted. Im sure many people in this very forum have broken canadian speech laws with some of their off colour humour and possibly racist implications. Punishment for this is a long long time in jail.

Yes its that easy!

Also Canada restricts freedom of speech in other ways. On election night it is illegal to post election results from atlantic canada in british columbia until the polls close in british columbia for example. Punishment for this can be jail.

Also there are thousands of "media bans" every year imposed on canadians with punishments that include jail time. This is why we had to go to american websites last spring to find out exactly how much our government was stealing from us! Even posting the name of the website in the US that told us information about our own government was punishable by jail!

Another famous example of our restriction of speech include the bernardo trial.

as for broadcast media, the canadian government controls what we watch and listen to via the CRTC. And no they dont just monitor for swear words. They actually decide which channels we can watch or listen to. The applications are considered right down to the format. Think we will ever get a 24 hour dance music station? Probably not since "the CTRC doesnt feel there is a market for it" unless they somehow fanagle it to be an urban top 40 station and then play dance. I know many dance music artists that are refused grants from the canadian government unless they show their category as "urban"

scary eh?

Welcome to Canada

Dont think we are such a free country because we really arent.

its already happening (korea)

quote:

Originally posted by MidnightClubber The internet is being policed as we speak, but it's a war of the nerds. Think about it, constant anti-spam, anti-download, and security featuers to keep minors out of certain sites are always being implemented, upgraded and maintained, but with millions of users there will always be loopholes through any internet-based system. That's why for instance they always release updates for anti-viruses, no matter what kind of measures they have set up to prevent trojans and intrusions onto computers there will always be the bored surfer itching to try out a new line of code he added to the latest virus. In regards to downloading music, bitorrent, irc, and ftp's are near impossible to shut down. The only way they'll prevent mp3's from being leaked onto the internet they need to prevent people from ripping the cds. But to do so they need to stop making programs that allow you to do so, and any person with some computer programming knowledge can do that... Complete restraint over the internet? Probably never, but if it does happen its for our children's children to worry about. For now free axs to 1337 s3>< etc.etc.

I don't think they'd need to start shutting things down to take control. If a law is passed all they have to do is start picking off random people and get that on the news. Then watch all illegal sharing activity go up in smoke. Nobody is going to download at the risk of fines and jail time. It's alot easier to catch someone sharing files than it is to catch someone spreading a virus. Same goes with spammers, although the gov't doesn't care about spam, at least not at this rate, it's still manageable right now.

I'm suprised nothing has been done yet about cracked/hacked software. It's not even sharing, it's pure theft.

Policed to that degree? Never, or I'd be in jail or bored of the internet entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 canada also restricts free speach on the internet. Anything that the government deems as "hateful" can be prosecuted. Im sure many people in this very forum have broken canadian speech laws with some of their off colour humour and possibly racist implications. Punishment for this is a long long time in jail. Yes its that easy! ... scary eh? Welcome to Canada Dont think we are such a free country because we really arent.

Canada has merely extended existing restrictions on cetain forms of speech to the internet realm. you don't agree that censoring hate literature is a reasonable limit on freedom of speech? Why is everything so absolute for you?

btw, punishment is *potentially* a jail term, so ease up on the paranoia, lol. Intent is a signficant determinent on what charges (if any) get laid and (if successfully prosecuted) in determining a sentence.

i.e. no one on TA is going to jail anytime soon

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT Canada has merely extended existing restrictions on cetain forms of speech to the internet realm. you don't agree that censoring hate literature is a reasonable limit on freedom of speech? Why is everything so absolute for you? btw, punishment is *potentially* a jail term, so ease up on the paranoia, lol. Intent is a signficant determinent on what charges (if any) get laid and (if successfully prosecuted) in determining a sentence. i.e. no one on TA is going to jail anytime soon

i dont agree with restricting ANY form of speech. If you wish to say the holocaust didnt happen you should be free to do so and i should be free to disagree or be disgusted by such comment.

ironically the gestapo used to arrest and put to death people in germany whos idea of the truth went against mainstream society and the government.

obviously our government doesnt go to that extreme. But whats the difference between arresting people in 1940's germany for expression of an alternate idea of belief than what we do here in canada today?

It already exists in the form of a "national firewall" in China. The commies essentially censor any site that doesn't fit the party line.

The case of China is precisely why we will never see this kind of policing in a democratic nation. Once the technology is in place for the government to decide what people can and can't look at, there is no end to how that technology can be abused. The government doesn't even need to pass a bill - they just make a call and get someone to add a couple of lines to the firewall script. Everybody knows where "internet policing" technology will lead, and nobody with half a brain would stand for it - an elected government that tried to implement such a thing would be immediately voted out of office or perhaps even impeached.

On the other hand, we don't even have the necessary resources here to enforce the CAN-SPAM act. People love to spout on about how the laws haven't kept up with the technology, and perhaps that's true to an extent, but realistically, the nature of the internet is based on freedom of information and *by design* it doesn't really allow for any meaningful level of "policing". Unless there is one central internet gateway, which would equal total disaster (not to mention destruction of the free market), there is no chance of that ever changing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 i dont agree with restricting ANY form of speech. If you wish to say the holocaust didnt happen you should be free to do so and i should be free to disagree or be disgusted by such comment. ironically the gestapo used to arrest and put to death people in germany whos idea of the truth went against mainstream society and the government. obviously our government doesnt go to that extreme. But whats the difference between arresting people in 1940's germany for expression of an alternate idea of belief than what we do here in canada today?

are you fucking kidding? that's not ironic at all...and it's completely irrelevant to this debate.

That you even mention Nazi Germany in this debate is actually quite offensive. There is no comparison between arbitrarily rounding up people based upon ethicity, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, physical health, and political ideology vs. censoring speech that incites hatred and/or violence.

Did Shadowolf hack into your account, by chance? That sounds like something he would say

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut It already exists in the form of a "national firewall" in China. The commies essentially censor any site that doesn't fit the party line. The case of China is precisely why we will never see this kind of policing in a democratic nation. Once the technology is in place for the government to decide what people can and can't look at, there is no end to how that technology can be abused. The government doesn't even need to pass a bill - they just make a call and get someone to add a couple of lines to the firewall script. Everybody knows where "internet policing" technology will lead, and nobody with half a brain would stand for it - an elected government that tried to implement such a thing would be immediately voted out of office or perhaps even impeached. On the other hand, we don't even have the necessary resources here to enforce the CAN-SPAM act. People love to spout on about how the laws haven't kept up with the technology, and perhaps that's true to an extent, but realistically, the nature of the internet is based on freedom of information and *by design* it doesn't really allow for any meaningful level of "policing". Unless there is one central internet gateway, which would equal total disaster (not to mention destruction of the free market), there is no chance of that ever changing.

I agree with that...it will never happen here. Information already flows FAR too easily here for that to even to be covertly implemented by some rogue gov't plan (at least I'd like to think that's the case!)

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT are you fucking kidding? that's not ironic at all...and it's completely irrelevant to this debate. That you even mention Nazi Germany in this debate is actually quite offensive. There is no comparison between arbitrarily rounding up people based upon ethicity, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, physical health, and political ideology vs. censoring speech that incites hatred and/or violence. Did Shadowolf hack into your account, by chance? That sounds like something he would say

why is it offensive?

Im not comparing the final outcome because obviously there is no comparing jail and deportation which happens here to outright murder which happened there. And people were not just rounded up for being a minority. Even blonde haired blue eyed german christians were arrested if they in any way said anything that went against what was to be officially believed. All you had to say was that you didnt agree with how the nazi party governed and you were finished. Many people forget this. The fact is that people were arrested for espousing beliefs that were against what the government and much of society believed which is exactly what is happening here.

you and i may not agree with what is said but that should not make it illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT There is no comparison between arbitrarily rounding up people based upon ethicity, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, physical health, and political ideology vs. censoring speech that incites hatred and/or violence.

Didn't notice this on the first pass but I think it deserves a response as well...

The trouble with the notion of "incitement" is that one never knows whether or not it "incites" violence until that violence has already happened - and even then, it's hard to definitively link cause and effect.

How does one create legislation against this without resorting to arbitrary speech codes? I think we may even be walking into Orwellian territory there. It's one of the burning philosophical questions raised by 1984 and even certain Hollywood movies like Minority Report - thought (and speech) may lead to action, but if a criminal action were to be prevented somehow (in this case by censorship), then of what significance is the mere thought? How do we know for sure that the criminal action was going to occur in the first place?

Holocaust deniers and other revisionist historians make me sick to my stomach. I think they should be ridiculed, laughed at, and generally be swept into the gutter by society at large. But society can handle that without censorship - we don't need someone in office telling us that yes, it's okay to ridicule these people because what they say is classified under "hate speech". I *KNOW* that they are full of shit, and I won't hesitate for a second to let everyone else know that they're full of shit.

So I don't agree that censorship is ever the answer, no matter how good or how necessary it may look in hindsight. We just don't know how society will be affected by words, and there is simply no objective means to classify what is "hate" speech or what might "incite" people. In my mind, AdScam should have incited a great deal of hate in Canadians, but surely no one believes that the results of the Gomery inquiry should have been censored...

quote:

Holocaust deniers and other revisionist historians make me sick to my stomach. I think they should be ridiculed, laughed at, and generally be swept into the gutter by society at large. But society can handle that without censorship - we don't need someone in office telling us that yes, it's okay to ridicule these people because what they say is classified under "hate speech". I *KNOW* that they are full of shit, and I won't hesitate for a second to let everyone else know that they're full of shit. So I don't agree that censorship is ever the answer, no matter how good or how necessary it may look in hindsight. We just don't know how society will be affected by words, and there is simply no objective means to classify what is "hate" speech or what might "incite" people. In my mind, AdScam should have incited a great deal of hate in Canadians, but surely no one believes that the results of the Gomery inquiry should have been censored...

exactly

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Didn't notice this on the first pass but I think it deserves a response as well... The trouble with the notion of "incitement" is that one never knows whether or not it "incites" violence until that violence has already happened - and even then, it's hard to definitively link cause and effect.

it is somewhat of a unique charge...but I think that even the most liberal of societies can draw a reasonable line and account for novel situations on a case by case basis unsing that line as a foundation.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut How does one create legislation against this without resorting to arbitrary speech codes? I think we may even be walking into Orwellian territory there. It's one of the burning philosophical questions raised by 1984 and even certain Hollywood movies like Minority Report - thought (and speech) may lead to action, but if a criminal action were to be prevented somehow (in this case by censorship), then of what significance is the mere thought? How do we know for sure that the criminal action was going to occur in the first place?

I think that is a bit of an unreasonable extension...we're not looking to stop crime before it happens by prosecuting solely on the basis of intent (Minority Report)...and we're not talking about privacy and freedom issues on an Orwellian level.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Holocaust deniers and other revisionist historians make me sick to my stomach. I think they should be ridiculed, laughed at, and generally be swept into the gutter by society at large. But society can handle that without censorship - we don't need someone in office telling us that yes, it's okay to ridicule these people because what they say is classified under "hate speech". I *KNOW* that they are full of shit, and I won't hesitate for a second to let everyone else know that they're full of shit. So I don't agree that censorship is ever the answer, no matter how good or how necessary it may look in hindsight. We just don't know how society will be affected by words, and there is simply no objective means to classify what is "hate" speech or what might "incite" people. In my mind, AdScam should have incited a great deal of hate in Canadians, but surely no one believes that the results of the Gomery inquiry should have been censored...

there is often no objective means to classify what is "abuse", "harassment" or "neglect" in countless cases, for example...does that mean we should not attempt to legislate against those things?

It is already policed

I know in the city I'm from in the U.S., a messageboard much like this one is policed so they can bust any renegade parties and do follow up on any mention of drugs. It's already happening.

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