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French ban hijabs (head-scarves)

France's religious intolerance amazes me. What the hell is wrong with the french? Wearing a hijab (head-scarf) isn't harming anyone. Do the french not believe in freedom of religion/expression? I guess not.

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Headscarf defeat riles French Muslims Rioting in a Paris suburb has highlighted discontent among French youths of foreign origin, many of whom define themselves through Islam. As part of a series on French Muslims, the BBC News website's Henri Astier reports on the impact of the headscarf ban. Every morning headteacher Genevieve Piniau stands guard at the gate of the Lycee Robert Doisneau in Corbeil-Essonne near Paris. She is there to ensure no rules are broken, including a ban on Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols in French state schools. Dozens of girls duly take off their hijabs as they approach the gate. But when one student tries to sneak past Ms Piniau with hers still on, the headteacher immediately spots her: "Off with it!" Despite this rare incident, Ms Piniau says the ban is now widely accepted. The collective baring of heads at the school gate testifies to that. However the acceptance is often grudging. Asma Boubker, 16, says she feels targeted as a Muslim: "Christians have crucifixes, why can't we have headscarves?" But other Muslim girls support the ban. "Some teachers would not see beyond the scarf and judge us - it's best if we have to take it off," says Siham, 15. Rama Kourouma, 18, agrees that religion should not be advertised in schools. "Faith is in the heart," she smiles. Popular The compliant students of Lycee Robert Doisneau are no exception. "All conspicuous religious signs have gone," says Marie-Louise Testenoire, the top education official for the Essonne department - which includes Corbeil-Essonne and other areas with large Muslim communities. This development is remarkable given the controversy that surrounded the introduction of the ban last year. French Muslims marched against a move that many condemned as intolerant. Many pointed out that the bill reversed court decisions that had allowed students to wear religious signs, as long as they did not amount to "proselytising". The first blow to the anti-ban campaign came in August last year - ironically at the hand of militants who abducted two French reporters in Iraq, demanding the law should be withdrawn. Protests died down, as French Muslims refused to be associated with the hostage-takers. But the key to the ban's success has been its enduring popularity. All political parties endorsed it. And a recent Pew think-tank survey indicated that secularist France was the country where restrictions on religion symbols had the strongest support - a full 75% backed the school ban. Soft approach At Robert Doisneau, Ms Piniau says that during the last academic year she secured co-operation through discussion, rather than discipline. Concentrated in poor suburbs of Paris, Lille, Lyon, Marseille and other cities Even at the height of the controversy in early 2004, when 30 girls defiantly came to school with headscarves, she never expelled anyone. "I took them into my office and explained to them what secularism meant," Ms Piniau recalls. "I said I had the deepest respect for their faith, but I did not want to know what their religion was - any more than I wanted them to know what mine was." The message was accepted by all but one of the girls - most of whom, according to Ms Piniau, had been pressured by relatives. The clearest sign that the 2004 law is now accepted is that no Muslim group is fighting for its repeal - not even the Organisation of Islamic Organisations of France (UOIF), which is closest to grass-roots opinion in the country's poorer suburbs. "The law is unfair to Muslims, but we've put it behind us," said Rachid Hamoudi, the UOIF director of a big mosque in Lille, northern France. The building also houses one of France's Muslim schools, the Lycee Averroes, which Mr Hamoudi offers as "an alternative for those who want to wear a veil". Lingering tensions But the wide acceptance of the ban does not mean the scarf issue has been settled once and for all. It remains contentious, not so much for the French Muslim community as a whole - which includes many secularists - but for youngsters with North African roots who have found a sense of identity through religion. To get an idea of the lingering tensions, it is worth looking at what happens to these young Muslims beyond secondary school. At university level, the law on religious signs does not apply. Nevertheless Teycir ben Naser, a second-year student at Creteil University near Paris, has opted for a discreet bandana. The 19-year-old feels the headscarf she wears off campus could become a liability during oral exams. Not that it would influence examiners, she says, but "they might say things or look at me in a certain way, and that would undermine my confidence". Veiled ambition The main challenge, however, will come after university. "We are studying to be able to work later," Ms ben Naser says. "And we all we know that if you wear a veil all the doors will close." She says her mother, who has a PhD in philosophy and wears a headscarf, does not have a job as a result. Sonia Benyahia, a student who wears a headscarf on campus and wants to be a schoolteacher, fears her future could be equally blocked. "I don't know if I'll be able to take off the scarf, so I think I'll remain a housewife," she says. Ambitious Muslim women will no doubt enter the French workforce in the coming years. But many will have to choose between their careers and wearing their religion proudly. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/...ope/4395934.stm Published: 2005/11/01 17:41:44 GMT � BBC MMV

Source: BBC

While I do think it's stupid to have a hijab, and agrees that it is probably harmful to the education to a little extent (at least in certain classes, such as p.e), I still think freedom of religion is more important in this case. And as you said it really hurts no one else, so why should the government care?

uh huh and in the US a few years ago some muslim women wanted to appear on her drivers lisence covered, everything but her eyes, which could be barely seen. I suppose that's fair as well?

You can practice your religion all you want, but not in public government-related institutions such as schools. There is a strict line that must be observed. In an institution like that, if you religious symbols can't be seen by anybody (such as a necklace with a cross hidden inside a shirt), that's OK, but if they can, that's a problem.

These visible symbols create a potential for conflicts and a multitude of disturbances that may interfere with teaching (in schools) and the functioning of any other government institutions.

The government and all its institutions are, and must be, strictly secular, as they are in France.

This is something Americans don't get, because the line between church and state in the US is long gone (and was tenuous at best when it existed, because most people are religious, unlike Europeans).

Its quite scary that they have to continue not wearing them after finishing school because they lose job oppurtunities. That is more of an indicator of religious intolerance than the school rule I think. One could grow to tolerate the removal of religious expression in schools but people not hiring somebody because of something they wear on their head is a bit harder to accept.

Personaly I think that church/state separation applies most to the government institutions and the employees, not neccesarily the citizens. The gov't can't back a religion but the citizens should be able to express what they personally beleive, so long as their actions can't be mistaken for government endorsement. I think that the school rule had good intentions, to limit religous conflict in public schools, but the idea that muslims must never wear veils because they will have less employment oppurtunity is just unfair and intolerant.

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Originally posted by Zombie0915 Its quite scary that they have to continue not wearing them after finishing school because they lose job oppurtunities. That is more of an indicator of religious intolerance than the school rule I think. One could grow to tolerate the removal of religious expression in schools but people not hiring somebody because of something they wear on their head is a bit harder to accept.

Well, the one example that was given was of a philosopher. These are hardly sought after commodity. In Denmark the jobless rate is extremely high for all kinds of humanists - I suspect the same is true of France.
In Denmark there are companies which forbid their employees wearing head-scarfs. Most of them because they fear customers would stay away. While I don't agree with such policies, I do think that private companies should be allowed to hire people from whatever criteria they like - after all the owners are the ones taking the financial risk, and should therefore be allowed to reduce that in whatever way they believe is best.

Excuse me guys (to all you complaining about religious intolerance)...

If one wishes to live in a different country, that offers better education, better social status and more opportunities, they MUST respect the country's laws/bans/regulations.

There was a case here in Canada about a kid wanting to bring a ceremonial knife to school everyday, laws must be respected above religious traditions that were brought with you upon arrival in a different country.

The fact that those who follow Islam can still do so in western countries is a privledge as far as I am concerned, if I were to travel to the middle east wearing a big silver christian cross around my neck demanding to set up a church and ask that my wife be given every freedom I have... I'd be lucky to even live through the ordeal. So the loss of a headscarf in schools does not seem to be a big blow to practicing Islam within a rich, prosperous and much more accepting country such as France.

I don't think this is completely unfair, I understand the followers of Islam dress a certain way according to their religion but they also choose to be in France. A state is more powerful than any religion within a state, and France is demonstrating that it has to be the one in control.

Personally, I am a practicing Christian and always have been/will be. I would be displeased with the decision by my government to lets say... Ban wearing a cross around my neck, but I value my ability to practice my religion within one of the best environments on earth, and therefore I would have to go about my daily life without a cross around my neck.

Also mentioned in the article was the fact that nobody should have to KNOW what religion you are, I agree, why stand out? Back to my chrisitan cross example, I wear one around my neck, but its tucked under my shirt as I go to school with people who are of various faiths and I have respect for both their faiths and my own. I am not exactly joined in this thinking however as there are many students at my school who wear full muslim dress, headscarfs etc... There are also those that have crosses hanging out, and those with even more peculiar outfits clearly placing them within a certain religious group.

I think it's nessecary to keep your faith, but unessecary to show it off. Showing it off causes conflict, especially in a VERY impressionable institution such as a school.

Very good post by Lopitrance (above).

Religion is private and must remain private in public places.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd Very good post by Lopitrance (above).

Not really

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Originally posted by Lopitrance Excuse me guys (to all you complaining about religious intolerance)... If one wishes to live in a different country, that offers better education, better social status and more opportunities, they MUST respect the country's laws/bans/regulations. There was a case here in Canada about a kid wanting to bring a ceremonial knife to school everyday, laws must be respected above religious traditions that were brought with you upon arrival in a different country.

Apples and oranges

A knife is slightly different to a head scarf no?

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The fact that those who follow Islam can still do so in western countries is a privledge as far as I am concerned, if I were to travel to the middle east wearing a big silver christian cross around my neck demanding to set up a church and ask that my wife be given every freedom I have... I'd be lucky to even live through the ordeal.

Maybe in Saudi Arabia but to tar the rest of the middle east with that brush is completely false and shows enourmous ignorance on your behalf. Lebanon, for example, has 40% Christians. 10% of Palestinians are Christians. In fact Christianity is practiced in the vast majority of middle east countries with no problems. In fact, it is a principle of political Islam (the ideology of al-Qaida) that Christianity and Judaism should be guaranteed the freedom to openly and safely to practice their religion as "people of the book"

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Personally, I am a practicing Christian and always have been/will be. I would be displeased with the decision by my government to lets say... Ban wearing a cross around my neck, but I value my ability to practice my religion within one of the best environments on earth, and therefore I would have to go about my daily life without a cross around my neck.

So what you sayin above then?

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Also mentioned in the article was the fact that nobody should have to KNOW what religion you are, I agree, why stand out? Back to my chrisitan cross example, I wear one around my neck, but its tucked under my shirt as I go to school with people who are of various faiths and I have respect for both their faiths and my own. I am not exactly joined in this thinking however as there are many students at my school who wear full muslim dress, headscarfs etc... There are also those that have crosses hanging out, and those with even more peculiar outfits clearly placing them within a certain religious group.

I doubt anyone in the west whatever religion will be offended by other people's religions

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I think it's nessecary to keep your faith, but unessecary to show it off. Showing it off causes conflict, especially in a VERY impressionable institution such as a school.

Causes conflict how?!


I'm not religious at all but seeing crosses or headscarfs or scull caps does not offend/annoy me in the slightest

^ That's a good post though! Good boy mr smiley

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'm not religious at all but seeing crosses or headscarfs or scull caps does not offend/annoy me in the slightest

Except if I'm behind one at a movie or similar event.

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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Except if I'm behind one at a movie or similar event.

Ban tall ppl as well!

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Ban tall ppl as well!

At 5'8", I'm with you on that one. Either that or just cut their legs down. Damn tall people.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Well, the one example that was given was of a philosopher. These are hardly sought after commodity. In Denmark the jobless rate is extremely high for all kinds of humanists - I suspect the same is true of France. In Denmark there are companies which forbid their employees wearing head-scarfs. Most of them because they fear customers would stay away. While I don't agree with such policies, I do think that private companies should be allowed to hire people from whatever criteria they like - after all the owners are the ones taking the financial risk, and should therefore be allowed to reduce that in whatever way they believe is best.

But don't you think that a tad bit discriminatory though?

^^^^^ Of course, but it's a private company, and they should be allowed to conduct business in whatever way they see fit, as long as it does not prevent others from doing the same/individuals from living their life as they want.
If I got down on the street and started handing money out to everyone I saw, except those wearing polo-shirts, I would be discriminating as well, but as it's my money I should be allowed to.

Lopitrance: Your entire argument is confusing immigrants with muslims. It's quite possible for a muslim to have been born and bred in France. Furthermore, your subargument, about the intolerance shown by more vocal muslims/ruling muslims towards people of other/no faiths, is a red herring. Just because someone else acts in a despicable manner that doesn't mean that you are justified in stooping to their level.

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Originally posted by trancaholic ^^^^^ Of course, but it's a private company, and they should be allowed to conduct business in whatever way they see fit, as long as it does not prevent others from doing the same/individuals from living their life as they want. If I got down on the street and started handing money out to everyone I saw, except those wearing polo-shirts, I would be discriminating as well, but as it's my money I should be allowed to.

I strongly disagree with your assessement. Personally I think a head scarf ban constitutes as illegal discriminatory behaviour. If your company is allowed to coduct business as they see fit (and involves a ban on headscarves) how does that not clonflict with your precondition of allowing individuals to live their lives as they see fit? True you are allowed to donate to any cause you deem worthy, but the principle behind the anti-discriminatory laws is that you avoid all invalid comparitives such as race.

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Originally posted by occrider I strongly disagree with your assessement. Personally I think a head scarf ban constitutes as illegal discriminatory behaviour.

Well, in Denmark it has been decided that it is legal for companies to discriminate in this manner when they employ people, so the legality is not really an issue here.

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Originally posted by occrider If your company is allowed to coduct business as they see fit (and involves a ban on headscarves) how does that not clonflict with your precondition of allowing individuals to live their lives as they see fit?

I don't consider a right to get a job as X at Y part of the individuals freedom to live his life as he sees fit, anymore than the individual can claim someone as his/her wife/slave/employee without their consent. It takes two to agree on starting a relationship - but only one to prevent it from being realized.

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Originally posted by occrider True you are allowed to donate to any cause you deem worthy, but the principle behind the anti-discriminatory laws is that you avoid all invalid comparitives such as race.

My stance is that prevention of invalid comparitives should not be enforced by government, but (preferably) decency in the individuals, or failing that, by the market forces. E.g. if company A refuses to hire people wearing religious symbols openly, then those who disagree with this policy can take their business elsewhere. Same goes for companies refusing to hire homosexuals, nazis, secularists, pierced people, nerds and what have we. As an example, I loathe MicroSoft and its business practices. However, I do not support the anti-trust measures against it, or think that the government should fine it, but simply don't buy or use its products, and tell others about benefits of using alternatives to MS products.

How do you, as a liberal, defend the stance that the individual wanting a job should be able to enforce the possible burden of his being there on a company run by a supposedly free individual?

i don't think this law is untolerant ...i totally agree with this law...school is a public place and we don't have to show our religions as previously said religion is private ....not only the veil but big crosses are also banned so it apply to christian and also muslim.....i don't think it's discriminatory u have to understand that here france is a secular country which means religion and state are separated....so no we can't accept to have religions signs in school and public places but yeah in law school we got these 2 girls wearing a veil but it's an university so it's different but this law had just been made to keep our tradition of secularism and i think it was necessary....

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd You can practice your religion all you want, but not in public government-related institutions such as schools. There is a strict line that must be observed. In an institution like that, if you religious symbols can't be seen by anybody (such as a necklace with a cross hidden inside a shirt), that's OK, but if they can, that's a problem.

First of all, this is not a case about "religious symbolism," it's about being allowed to practice your religion and not having secularim imposed on you.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd These visible symbols create a potential for conflicts and a multitude of disturbances that may interfere with teaching (in schools) and the functioning of any other government institutions.

Wow, schools in America can't opperate and there is constant conflict and anarchy because of Muslim women wearing their hijabs.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd The government and all its institutions are, and must be, strictly secular, as they are in France. This is something Americans don't get, because the line between church and state in the US is long gone (and was tenuous at best when it existed, because most people are religious, unlike Europeans).

No one is asking for laws or regulations to be made/enforced based on religion. Gee, I'm a stupid American because I believe I should be allowed to practice my religion, without restrictions on where I can and can't. And by doing so, I'm somehow imposing it on others.

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Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l school is a public place and we don't have to show our religions as previously said religion is private ....

Well, many Muslims women believe they HAVE to wear a hijab, so it not an ornament for display or even a "religious symbol," it's part of their belief system and identity.

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Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l not only the veil but big crosses are also banned so it apply to christian and also muslim.....i don't think it's discriminatory

Right, so it's not only discriminitary against Muslim women, but all non-secular/religious people.

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Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l u have to understand that here france is a secular country which means religion and state are separated.... but this law had just been made to keep our tradition of secularism and i think it was necessary....

You do understand what seperation of Church and State means right? It's the seperation of the legislative process from religion. Law's are not based on religion etc. Well, I'm sorry, but wearing a hijab has absolutely nothing to do with seperation of Church and State. The only thing the ban reinforces is religious intolerace. The state has no fucking right to tell me or anyone else how to practice my religion and when not to.

EDIT: America is a secular coutry too but we don't have laws which are religously intolerant/reinforce religious intolerance.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Well, many Muslims women believe they HAVE to wear a hijab, so it not an ornament for display or even a "religious symbol," it's part of their belief system and identity.

What if my religion says that I have to walk naked? Believe it or not, there are certain religions like that in the world. Imagine if this would ever fly in the "free" United States.

When you live in a certain country, you have to be acquainted with and respect the local culture. If you or your ancestors are not from this country, and your culture differs from theirs, you can keep your culture but without offending the local populace, who lets you live with them.

The local culture in France is one of strict secularity, which I agree with completely. Just like people in the US would become very upset if they saw even a glimpse of a naked body (think about what happened during the Superbowl), people in France become very upset when they see overt religious symbols.

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You do understand what seperation of Church and State means right? It's the seperation of the legislative process from religion.

It's the separation of Government from religion. Schools are government institutions. The government funds, controls, and oversees them. What don't you understand about this statement?

Besides, schoolchildren are at a very vulnerable age where potential for conflicts is great. Most French people do not believe in God and are not religious, so for French kids to suddenly witness religiosity is a wild and unusual spectacle that may cause the less tactful of them to start teasing and bullying Muslim students. Meanwhile, the schools must maintain order.

Why do you think schoolchildren in Britain and many other countries must all wear special uniforms? So that the schools can minimize any bullying or other disturbances related to the differences between students, and concentrate on normal instruction.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd What if my religion says that I have to walk naked? Believe it or not, there are certain religions like that in the world. Imagine if this would ever fly in the "free" United States. When you live in a certain country, you have to be acquainted with and respect the local culture. If you or your ancestors are not from this country, and your culture differs from theirs, you can keep your culture but without offending the local populace, who lets you live with them. The local culture in France is one of strict secularity, which I agree with completely. Just like people in the US would become very upset if they saw even a glimpse of a naked body (think about what happened during the Superbowl), people in France become very upset when they see overt religious symbols.

I agree with the double morals here, but personally I don't see anything wrong with someone walking around naked. It's their fucking problem, as well as having a hijab is their fucking problem. Whoever gets offended by a hijab can really just fuck off, so nothing to protect here imo.

And oh, I make no difference if it's religion or not. I think religious freedoms are kind of stupid, BUT freedom of expression is very important, and having a hijab is part of that, as well as being allowed to dress however you want to for unreligious puposes.

^^ No society in the world will ever give you a 100% "freedom of expression." Stop kidding yourself.

You can express yourself so long as you don't offend others.

It just so happens that Americans aren't offended by public religion, they welcome it. They're much more offended by a nude breast.

Well, the French welcome the nude breast, but they're very offended by public religion.

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd ^^ No society in the world will ever give you a 100% "freedom of expression." Stop kidding yourself. You can express yourself so long as you don't offend others. It just so happens that Americans aren't offended by public religion, they welcome it. They're much more offended by a nude nipple. Well, the French welcome the nude nipple, but they're very offended by public religion.

In Sweden for example, it is not illegal to be naked in public, neither is it illegal to wear a hijab.

100% freedom of expression can be reached. The only reason why it's seen bad in America to be nude is because ppl think so, there is really no logical reason behind it. If ppl changed their minds it could be reached. Same if ppl could change their minds about hijabs in France.

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