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music for the educated LOL

On monday night i came to the conclusion that the whole 'educated' music thing is crap.

Digweed was mad, he had masses of people eating from the palm of his hand - yet everyone claims that most of the masses are not very well versed in dance music atm.

Listening to his set i realised (for about the 150,000th time in my life) that prog runs on exactly the same principals as trance. So why does it seem that half trance fans love prog, but the other half find it boring?

Its not musical education or complexity. LOL - it makes me laugh that some prog fans go on about how trance is just build up breakdown music, and then praise djs' who play tracks with 15 minute build ups and breakdowns.

I know Digweed and Sasha and those guys dont play the kool mcgool super amazing always changing top of the line prog stuff that gets the elitests in a tizz - but trance is constantly judged on tiesto and pvd, so prog will be judged on digweed and sasha.

The music may be more slightly (and i stress slightly) more subtle than the trance of today and the aesthitics might be a little different, but in all honesty its the same shit - going for the same result.

I dunno i had a point somewhere here, and its my lunchbreak, so im in a rush - but i did ponder on this one for quite a while and came to the conclusion that its all context. Put a n00b into a trance room for 8 hours theyd be in love with trance, do the same with prog and youd get the same result.

- still it leaves me with the one unanswered question -

why does it seem that once a trance fan gets jaded and goes to prog, they dont turn back ---i thought this one through - and i think it might be more about the fact that u grow up and the higher bpms dont do it for u as much as when u are younger, and the obviousness of melody beigns to be a bit boring ---But this doesnt make it any more intelligent just different.

*so yeah i had a point, but lost it. :/

well said


i dont think the music is any more intelligent necessarily, but i think the listeners as they grow and age get an opinion which is more refined, as they know what they like and what they dont like.


its unfortunate when loved ones grow older and they no longer like the music they used too... *sigh*

like ishkur says:

trance got so sweet it threw up on itself.

And I imagine e-tarded trance lovers have similar experiences before going to prog.

Actually, I tend to think of it as people realize there's more to EDM than the 'happy hands in the air' feel that uplifting trance provides. Progressive is an offshoot of classic trance [pre-99] the same way uplifting trance is, but they have different tones and moods associated with them, and it is the greater variation in the those elements that draw people away from trance.

I mean, when you listen to a good progressive set, and I mean really good, it can take you through all types of moods and tones, whereas uplifting trance is generally limited in that way. If you look at the success of Sasha and Digweed as a duo, and listen to their sets, they are probably the best example of using the depth of the progressive style to take the audience on a trip through whatever amount of hours they perform for. It's not that progressive is more 'intellegent', it's just that it has more depth in that way IMO.

true slyguy i get what ur saying there.

hmmz - the thing is there is enough good trance around of varying emotion to be able to do the same with trance....joof, mike and lawrence can do it - hence their great respect from people who know about trance i guess.

i guess u may be right there - but hmm - i think there is enough varience in trance for it to be done there as well - there are a few local boys starting to do it - and sasha and digweed used to do it with trance 8 or so years ago i guess

dunno guess it'd be good to see more big names do it.

(it is a hard thing to do tho')

This should so go in the MD, see what some of the prog-elitist-knobs in there have to say about it.

I have you agree with ya JPL.

i think it all lies in predictability aspect of trance.


most ppl assuming unpredictability == intelligence.


a prog track progression sometimes makes you think 'where do we go from here?' instead of 'follow the leader' (read: synths) .. i think this is why prog is more interesting compared with most trance track out there today..

quote:

Originally posted by tachyon a prog track progression sometimes makes you think 'where do we go from here?'

main word in there being "sometimes".

Sometimes trance does that too. And sometimes prog doesn't, its as predictable as a shit after indian food a good proportion of the time.

*cue idiot who doesnt know anything about music*

*enters pkc!*

why is predictability a problem? for me, i think its one of the best parts of music. most stuff thats unpredictable (say, classic classical) sounds fvcking terrible.

quote:

why does it seem that once a trance fan gets jaded and goes to prog, they dont turn back ---i thought this one through - and i think it might be more about the fact that u grow up and the higher bpms dont do it for u as much as when u are younger, and the obviousness of melody beigns to be a bit boring ---But this doesnt make it any more intelligent just different

i reckon its coz what got you into trance can only keep you there for so long. even pkc, the useless euphoric-loving moron finds most stuff released today to be truly awful. i can only imagine what you pre 2000 experts feel like. i doubt its got anything to do with 'growing up' so to speak.

hahaha most of the people who buy records dont even have an education.

quote:

Originally posted by Anomyst hahaha most of the people who buy records dont even have an education.

har har har

we're are qualified in the art of life history

art of mong?

quote:

Originally posted by Light The Fuse true slyguy i get what ur saying there. hmmz - the thing is there is enough good trance around of varying emotion to be able to do the same with trance....joof, mike and lawrence can do it - hence their great respect from people who know about trance i guess. i guess u may be right there - but hmm - i think there is enough varience in trance for it to be done there as well - there are a few local boys starting to do it - and sasha and digweed used to do it with trance 8 or so years ago i guess dunno guess it'd be good to see more big names do it. (it is a hard thing to do tho')

I agree, but I'm speaking more on a general term. DJs like J00F, Orkidea, or Lawrence do play trance with a lot of depth, but on the whole, there are few DJs who play the way they do. Depth is possible, but because uplifting trance has become so popular, that is unfortunately the predominant sound in many trance DJs sets, which leads to amany nights where it's all hands in the air.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why is predictability a problem? for me, i think its one of the best parts of music. most stuff thats unpredictable (say, classic classical) sounds fvcking terrible. i reckon its coz what got you into trance can only keep you there for so long. even pkc, the useless euphoric-loving moron finds most stuff released today to be truly awful. i can only imagine what you pre 2000 experts feel like. i doubt its got anything to do with 'growing up' so to speak.

it may not have anything to do with growing up, but to me, a good set is more than just one sound or musical idea done 30 different ways. EDM by nature is already predictable in it's beat structure, it's breakdowns and buildups, so to me, by necessity the moods and tones should be emphasized in their differences.

As for the oldschoolers, a lot of them complain about the decreasing quality of dance music, and often times, the lack of variations and ingenuity in the sets put out these days are their most prominant complaints. And only after I had really listened to some older sets of DJs did I understand excatly what they were talking about. Forget the age of the tracks, or whether you like them or not, listen to the set, listen to the sounds, listen to the pace, mood, and overall feel of each track. You'll find a much much wider variety on display in those sets, something that is woefully missing these days. And this isn't just for trance DJs, but all DJs.

Jules tries to think too much, but to no avail.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why is predictability a problem? for me, i think its one of the best parts of music.

As a relatively new member to this forum and someone who has only recently discovered trance, I'm inclined to agree with pkc here. I've found that while the first listen of a lot of the live sets downloaded from this site has been good, and surprising, I have enjoyed the music a LOT more when I know what's comming up and have a feeling for where it's going to go next. Especially when dancing to it.

Although I haven't ever listened to 'prog' (and in all honesty don't really know what any of you are talking about), but hit me with some and I could probably be used as a tranceaddict guinea pig of sorts.

yeah jules ANALyses the music too much. he knows it =)

quote:

Originally posted by 00soups00 i dont think the music is any more intelligent necessarily, but i think the listeners as they grow and age get an opinion which is more refined, as they know what they like and what they dont like.

True dat.

But don't we get more intelligent as we get older.

Imagine what the "educated" elite would asy to this thread on ITM

quote:

Originally posted by Sly_Guy As for the oldschoolers, a lot of them complain about the decreasing quality of dance music, and often times, the lack of variations and ingenuity in the sets put out these days are their most prominant complaints.

Could this be because as each genre matures and evolves it becomes more refined and its sound more unique. Example: Sasha and Digweeds - The Mix Collection takes you through a variety of genres, "moods", and "feelings" but each song has that similar "raw" feel in terms of production quality and sound effects used thus allowing mixing from one genre to another more seamless.

I don't know if i was capable of explaining the above correctly oh well it makes sense in my head

quote:

And only after I had really listened to some older sets of DJs did I understand excatly what they were talking about.

Yeah i found out this when i listened to Sasha and Digweeds Northern Exposure Tour 1997 on JJJ Mixup; compare it to trance sets nowadays and you'll definately notice that ingenuity and variation is lacking today :/

I like music which has energy and which has the right blend of familiarity & innovation. I really need a melody to hold my attention- If it's too rhythmic I'll drift off somewhere else (zzzzz). I prefer music to have an element of 'story' which is why epic minor melodies grab me the most.

I absolutely love some progressive, but on the whole I feel that much of the prog I come across these days falls short in the 'energy' department, and whether I enjoy particular proggy tracks or not will depend heavily on my mood at the time.

By contrast, I can have trance for breakfast lunch and tea. I believe that there is ample variety within the genre of trance, and I have found personally that the more familiar I become with a genre, the more capable I become of perceiving uniquenesses and distinguishing between various subcategories.

So it may be that when a trance-hater says "it all sounds the same", a more elightended version of the same statement might go "I'm not familiar enough with this genre to distinguish between and appreciate the variety that there is within it". My guess is that these people have not been fortunate enough to have been exposed to (or inspired enough to seek out) the same varitey (within said genre) that I have.

I don't agree that age necessarily has anything to do with it, but I do notice the trend you are talking about. I can attest personally, that the older I get, the more I enjoy more pumping (faster bpm) trance. I also know that genre's are constantly evolving and meshing together so you never know what you might end up liking down the track!!!

Pryda - aftermath

Digweed played this, awesome tune.


But really, compare it to a trance tune and it is VERY similar.

Big break down, massive kick back in. THe crowd reaction is the same as it is with a massive trance track.


But yea Jules, I agree, which is probably why I like prog & trance the same these days. Electro/tech quirky stuff is my main style now, but i still like and play the prog and trancey stuff

1's 32 beats
1's 64 beats

trace is short mixes
progressive is long mixes

trance is fuck off obvious cheesy hands in the air every 3.4 minutes breakdown
progressive is a bit more restrained, not so 'bright/loud/obvious/cheesy' melody every 5 minutes

trance is faster
progressive is slower

Trance is Educated to Happy Hardcore
Progressive is Edudated to Trance
Techno/Minimal is Edudated Progressive.

Trance is generally faster, and brighter more obvious.

Progressive takes longer to get into, as it's more subtle. subtle = educated.

Jake: I was going 2 write a nice long essay but what's the point, people only read or listen to what they want.

--djway

quote:

Originally posted by muli Pryda - aftermath Digweed played this, awesome tune.

See, now I actually just bought this vinyl, and I rate The Gift more than Aftermath, which all the prog lovers have been jizzing themselves over.


I guess thats off topic, but maybe djway can tell me how subtle = educated?
Theres no reason for saying this. Its just one group of people who reckon they are superior labelling their style as educated, and then making all these claims such as subtle = educated. I'm sorry, it doesn't work without a REASON. Maybe the more obvious melodies of trance are more educated, becaus they are more complex. It works both ways.


And I like both.

quote:

Originally posted by marsh I prefer music to have an element of 'story' which is why epic minor melodies grab me the most.

word!

the main reason i dont like much prog is that the melodies are too subtle for me. or something. i dunno. they just dont follow that predictable (for me) pattern epic trance does. i love love love a song that i can hear where its going before it goes there, coz it makes melodic sense (to me).

which is why i hate so much trance being released at the moment; you hear it and wonder wtf the producer was thinking. theres no delivery on the promise.

so im now going to go explore prog house/trance and see if i cant find some epic trance tunes hidden inside them

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so im now going to go explore prog house/trance and see if i cant find some epic trance tunes hidden inside them

Andrew K dude... jump on his forums and go into the Sets section

i agree that progressive is more subtle which generally lends itself to being enjoyed by the more "educated". like a fine wine for example, as time goes by your taste changes. when you're a kid you like lollies, when you are older you may enjoy blue cheese (eck!)
but really there is no argument, everyone is different and everyone likes different things

hi all, interesting thread i thought i'd jump on the bandwagon...
the discussion of prog over trance will always recieved mixed responses.
personally i really enjoy both.
I really beleive that music in general comes down to the building and releasing of emotion (i'm placing energy in the same basket) and that is particularly evident in dance music. Thats why its so great to just escape into the music some days. I always enjoy a set that ANY dj does that simply builds and releases emotion, so with broad boundries like that one can select anything from prog to driving trance and still achieve a strong conection with the punters on the floor. I always enjoy the notion of a journey from one point to another, those that have any of my promo mixed cd's may see thats what i aim at achieving.
I believe that trance is overtly emotive, the build and release is generally huge. Prog achieves that in a subtler way yet still can be very powerful the work of Junkie XL or Gabriel & Dresden for example... many say that prog is boring, but i say a trance song that doesn't build and release emotion is boring also... granted you may have a driving M.I.K.E tune that seems less melodic but you're still building emotion, more for the overall set than the indivdual tune.

When it comes to the "...educated..." i think people will always want to feel V.I.P or elite but when it comes down to the core connection that anyone will have with a song they enjoy it's still on the emotional level.

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