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Anyone use headphones for producing versus monitors?

Im to broke to buy a decent set of monitors, but I could afford another set of headphones.
I was thinking about the sennheiser hd-280s , I used to be pretty big into headphones and I remember everyone saying these had a very flat response(I also had a pair for about a week). So is anyone else too broke or cheap to buy good monitors? What are your thoughts on this?

you can't mix on headphones...sorry but plain and simple it doesn't work, theres to many reasons to list why not, simpley type "why can't i record with headphones" or something similar in google and you'll find some answers...it sucks not being able to afford good monitors, but the only recommendation is to save that money until you can.

You can IF you have good ones. But below 200$ you won't find some :-) and do not take sony because the bass replay is not very well there. Sennheiser e.g. are fine (but only HD 560 or better...)
It just takes some weeks to get into them, but if you are you can mix and master.

Take a TV to control your master. Good trick if you master with headphones.

At the main studio, My partner and I use Sennheiser and AKG Headphones to "pre-Mix" on a track ... For the simple use, we know how the frequncies respond on our phones, so we mix to suite, gives us a pretty damn decent sound ... but we also have Alesis monitors for when we mix something we want to sound superb ... so don't worry dood, get some decent phones, sennheisers or the whatnot and get to doing your thing, but also save on the side for some monitors ... because even though we mix alot under phones, It still has the final process of going through the monitors we have before it's released out of the studio ...

imo it is not possible to create a track with headphones only, but thats my opinion, ive tried: the song i created with headphones was superb... until i put it on monitors/home stereo the next day, terrible!!!!

and dont say my headphones are probably cheap shit: Beyerdyamic DT 770 pro

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Originally posted by djbruuen you can't mix on headphones...sorry but plain and simple it doesn't work

Yes, you can.

It helps to have a decent pair of speakers to cross-reference, but they don't need to be expensive studio monitors. Regular speakers (not the cheap $20 computer speakers) and a good pair of studio headphones are perfectly fine.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Yes, you can. It helps to have a decent pair of speakers to cross-reference, but they don't need to be expensive studio monitors. Regular speakers (not the cheap $20 computer speakers) and a good pair of studio headphones are perfectly fine.

I agree. I've produced plenty of decent sounding mixes with some nice $150 sonys and normal speakers. I'm looking into getting some monitors though. saving up

long-term usage of headphones (on high volume) damages your ears way more than the same volume on speakers. So be carefull.

I use only headphones for producing. Pretty good ones though, it's a pair of sennheiser 580p.

I have some monitors too, but never use them

If the track you are working on seems to lack energy on your speakers, you might be tempted to push up the volume, thus giving you the illusion of energy in the track. This happened to me quite a lot. On headphones, you can't really push up the volume without destroying your ears so it's a goot energy test IMO. I don't find it so hard to mix on headphones either, if you have some good ones

i usually premaster on my headphones (20$), and then finetune it afterwards using my Tannoy Reveal Active. The reason for this is my mother HATING trance and anything that plays above 20 dB, but i still seem to get a decent sound.

and dont say my headphones are probably cheap shit: Beyerdyamic DT 770 pro [/QUOTE]

Highly recommended these to anyone thinking of buying a pair.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Yes, you can. It helps to have a decent pair of speakers to cross-reference, but they don't need to be expensive studio monitors. Regular speakers (not the cheap $20 computer speakers) and a good pair of studio headphones are perfectly fine.

i'll admit myself that i use headphones from time to time, maybe when messing around with a vst or something...but when its ready to serious audio finalizing...NO, put them aside and my event tr-6 monitors take over the job. why?...

1. headphones are right beside your ears, you'll hear transients to loud, not enough in the bass section etc (changes can vary from phones)...then u switch to monitors and are like wtf? i think its bullshit to say a pair of headphones are compeletly flat. (well not even monitors are half the time anyways, but you get a pair thats really close)

2. the whole point to mixing with monitors is to be in the centre of your mix. how can you be in the centre when one channel is going to one ear and one to the other? you're supposed to hear how signals blend together, and how exactly are you going to do that on headphones? do you ever see ppl setting up their monitors with one facing the left ear and the other facing the right? thats what i thought.

these other things...but point two is a huge point for why i'd never do it.

Point 2. True, to some extent...

Good headphones have a good soundstage, in particular open ones. While the sound may be different to some degree, lots of people won't even have the monitors set up right or have the right room acoustics to have such sonic advantages, headphones are pretty much an out of box monitor solution, and when you get to knowhowthey sound you'll be able to pull of really clean mixes.

And since the stereo seperation is far more noticable, in actual fact, you can prevent your self from over doing it in terms of panning, with monitors you may over pan certain things, and this could cause problems later further down the path.

No they aint perfect, but neither are any monitors or home studio's for that matter. It's about working with what stuff you got.

And btw... Sony's are good providing you don't go for the dj models which suck.

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do you ever see ppl setting up their monitors with one facing the left ear and the other facing the right?

Yes. Last time Sasha came his requested setup had the monitors just like that.

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Originally posted by djbruuen 1. headphones are right beside your ears, you'll hear transients to loud, not enough in the bass section etc (changes can vary from phones)...then u switch to monitors and are like wtf? i think its bullshit to say a pair of headphones are compeletly flat. (well not even monitors are half the time anyways, but you get a pair thats really close)

No.

quote:

2. the whole point to mixing with monitors is to be in the centre of your mix. how can you be in the centre when one channel is going to one ear and one to the other? you're supposed to hear how signals blend together, and how exactly are you going to do that on headphones? do you ever see ppl setting up their monitors with one facing the left ear and the other facing the right? thats what i thought.

Partially true, but mostly specious reasoning. The "stereo vs. binaural" debate has little to no practical significance, since sounds blend together in one's auditory perception anyway (if a sound is panned 30% left and a copy of the sound is panned 30% right, you perceive it as coming from the center, not as two separate copies coming from different places).

By your logic, technically you should be using a minimum of 4 monitors to truly be in "the centre" of a mix. But it doesn't really make a difference, because either way you need to try to recreate the environment of your listeners when mastering, which means listening on as many different sound systems as possible. Most of your listeners won't have studio monitors!

i'm not convinced guys, i've listened through numerous high end headphones, and although they sound nice as a listener, as a producer they can't lay out a true representation of the sound to make it a worthy source for production. something else to add, and this a huge thing 'EAR FATIGUE' when i produce, i go for hours (ususally with intermissions to refresh my ears) on headphones, having a speaker right on you ear is going to kill your ears, you will keep turns the volume up, shifting things you shouldn't be shifting, and then when you listen to what you did on a proper set of speakers, its like WTF?


--> to prevent this discussion from going around in circles though, this is what my experience has been and it does not work for me, if u guys are capable of producing a #1 smash through headphones, then cheers to you! personally speaking though, theres no subsitute to real monitors, and anyone who produces seriously should eventually make this purchase.

I use a pair of Technics RPF-350 gold for producing, they are quite decent. I have to use them as I have shitty desktop speakers and a sub .

yes you can.

for sure it will always be better if you have a nice pair of flat-response active monitors. but that's not cheap. Since this is an amateur forum i'm sure many of the people who read this can't afford such a pair of hardware. if you are serious about producing, some good monitors should be a must in your shopping plans. in the meanwhile you can mix with headphones, use cd-rw and try variations (of the mix) of your recording in some different sound systems (hifi stereos) at moderate and high volume just to be sure that the music sounds just the way u want it, remember that usually this kind of music is played at loud in clubs and sound systems (pa).

i want to point here that mixing is one of the most difficult process to dominate and the skills to do it has nothing to do with the monitors. i suggest to learn to mix properly with headphones (dj headphones is ok) then move to mix with monitors.

if u want to try mixing with monitors right now, get a friend who owns a pair, what are friends for? lol

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Originally posted by djbruuen i'm not convinced guys, i've listened through numerous high end headphones, and although they sound nice as a listener, as a producer they can't lay out a true representation of the sound to make it a worthy source for production.

My headphones don't sound nice at all as a listener. That's the whole reason I bought them. The AKG K240 has been the industry standard studio headphone for some 20 years because of its accurate sound reproduction.

You can get shitty studio monitors too. If the headphones you tested were the crummy ones that some people here love like the Sennheiser HD25 or HD280 then I can understand why you hold this opinion, but you haven't been listening to the right headphones in that case.

Even so, I'm going back to the original point here which is that no matter how accurate the reproduction is on your headphones/monitors, you haven't done your job as a producer properly until you've tested it out on systems which *don't* have accurate sound reproduction. Your listeners will not have studio monitors/headphones! You need to listen on a regular stereo, car stereo, cheap-ass PC speakers, even Dolby Pro Logic quasi-surround receivers. That's the whole point of the mastering process - to make sure it sounds good on every system, not just your own producing system.

quote:

Originally posted by djbruuen --> to prevent this discussion from going around in circles though, this is what my experience has been and it does not work for me, if u guys are capable of producing a #1 smash through headphones, then cheers to you! personally speaking though, theres no subsitute to real monitors, and anyone who produces seriously should eventually make this purchase.

yup. use headphones if you have to; but I wouldn't suggest it. I use them to fine tune my spatial relationships between sounds.

however, get a good pair... and save up for monitors, because without a high quality pair of flat-response monitors, well, you're in the dark.

oh, one last thing... the mixes you make on your headphones and studio monitors aren't going to be what your song sounds like! Listen to your music on your cheapo computer speakers, your car stereo, your friends' speakers, that cheap walkman you have in the closet, etc etc

Cross reference and know your sound.

The reason people might recommend flat studio monitors over headphones, your car stereo, etc?

Because it allows you to pick up small errors that you wouldn't notice in other systems. It defines the sounds between frequencies very well.

If you're serious about wanting a professional sound, then start saving. If you don't like it, then you can make indie music.

speaking about monitors, which monitors do you guys recommend? Something in the lower price range please.

I bought myself a decent pair of studio monitors 2 years ago, but before that i used my headphones extensively.
Now i find myself going back to the good 'ol headphones on several occasions.
If the mix starts to sound too muddy, and i can't seem to make out the problem using my Monitors , i grab my headphones and it's a matter of minutes before i find the problem.


Also about playing music too loud on your headphones. It's the same with Monitors dude, i live in the city and there is a lot of noise all the time (don't have a sound proof studio setup) so i tend to turn up de volume of my Monitors way up by the end of a long mixing day.
On headphones I get ear fatigue much sooner, so it actually protects my ears from long time overexposure.

quote:

Originally posted by superddman speaking about monitors, which monitors do you guys recommend? Something in the lower price range please.

mine are on the lower price tag of 'GOOD' monitors, and i've been boosting the hell out of them because i love how accurate they are and the detail to the mix i hear...i'm using Event TR-6, and would definately recommend them...i've tested them against all the popular ones like behringer truth, krk, samson's, m-audios, etc. in that category, nothing compared to the events. (that being said, you NEED to audition them for yourself..i don't understand how some ppl can drop the cash for monitors without listening to them? no matter how many good recommendations there are, your ears have to make the final decision.


as diginut mentioned, unfortuantely it is only sennhiesers i have used among a few other brands, so i can't disagree with him since i have no experience with those headphones, i know akg makes quality stuff, as i had a friend how had a stunning pair of headphones, although never thoroughly listened to them myself (i just remember the pair he had was phenominal for the sound not leaking). my biggest beef was ear fatigue as mentioned. and by the time you take them off and use normal speakers, things sound disoriented.


edit...to diginut: i just checked out the headphones you use...whats the difference between the k240, k240m and k240s? i might actually consider looking into a pair, unlikely that i'd use them to mix my music, but since i still live with parents, i can't always have speakers loud.

If I remember right the reason why most headphones cause ear fatigue isn't because of the headphones themselves but the op-amp that is used in the amplifier for the headphones. I believe headfi.com has plenty of info on this, Ill go read up on it later tonight.

Anyone ever try out a pair of stax head phones? I used to own a pair and WOW, you hear things you have never heard on a recording before.

a good pair of cans do not cause significantly more ear fatigue than monitors do.

cans are perfectly adequate for mixing purposes. the only thing you need to think about is that the stereo image on headphones is different to that of monitors. so yea, either way, you will need to cross reference the results on various soundsystems, both high end and low end to get a better idea of what it really sounds like.

the difference with headphones and monitors lies partly in how we perceive direction of sound - as the difference in time it takes for the sound to reach the left and right ear.

this is why it is possible to create (sometimes bizaare) spatial, stereo positioning by delaying (in milliseconds) one or both channels in a stereo pair to varying degrees. this will change the time it takes for a sound to reach your ear and change its perceived place in the mix. this is partly how widening tricks are done. on headphones, a stereo mix will always be perceived as wider than it is on monitors because of the proximity of the driver to the ear. the distance between the sound source and the ear is greatly reduced, thus the time it takes for the sound to reach both ears is reduced. thus headphone monitoring will give you a different sense of space in your mix to that of monitors. especially if you use stereo widening effects or delaying channels in stereo pairs.

and if you are doing that, you should really be testing your mixes on lots of different soundsystems (your hifi, your crappy sony ear bud headphones and your car soundsystem) with professional tracks as references to make sure you get it right. because it can sound very weird if you do it wrong - amongst other things, whole instruments could be disappearing in the mix as a result of destructive phasing. you could be left with a great big gaping hole in the middle of your mix if you widen a sound too much. etc.

so in a roundabout way, ive just taken 10 times longer to explain pretty much what has already been said in this thread :\ its not about x versus y and neither is better. they just give you 2 different versions of what your mix will sound like and you should really use both (and then some) to make sure it sounds as good as possible on all of them. listening on crap soundsystems also helps you to isolate stuff that is blatently wrong with your mix. my sony hifi speakers are bassy as hell (with very little midrange) but ive never listened to a professional track that shakes the driver to the point where you think its going to rip. so when this happens in my tunes (and it has) i just know ive put my basslines through too many valves and i need to seriously cut some low end.

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