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-- Clavia Nord Lead diss thread. Yeah, it sucks.

Clavia Nord Lead diss thread. Yeah, it sucks.

After many years and earnest tries to appreciate Nord, I finally give up and claim the following:

NORD LEAD SUCKS!

Yes, you heard it here. After many attempts to find something likeable about this synth, I found only frustration and disapointment.

I had all models:

Nord Rack (NL1)
Nord 2 Keys
Nord 2x Keys
Nord 3 Keys
Nord 3 Rack

The only one that induced some kind of emotion out of me was Nord 2x - it had few pretty cool and agressive leads, some phat pads and saws. The rest, might as well have not existed.

I loved the NL 3 interface - one of the best designs... but engine completely lackluster. It had no personality or any kind of character that would destinguish it in the mix.

Some synths - you can tell right away. I can tell a virus in the mix. Or I can hear some old analogs and tell it apart in the mix.

Nord - is completely generic, does not really have a predominant frequency where it excells and no ammount of external FX makes it sound any better. The original was actually OK and had some personality to it - but just like all the rest of nords, it lacked bottom end and it sounded thin no matter what you tried.

So, after frustrating attempts to like it - I am finally getting rid of my NL3 rack.

Just thought I'd share some opinions and perhaps invoke some thoughtful replies.

quote:

Yes, you heard it here. After many attempts to find something likeable about this synth, I found only frustration and disapointment.

this happens alot but if you let it get to you then thats a shame. a synth is like any instrument - it is only limited by the ability of the musician that is playing it. synths dont just sit well in the mix by default, nor is it the hallmark of a good synth. the virus is certainly no exception because, quite the opposite of the nord lead, it is difficult to get very bright sounds out of it - the raw waveforms have very little top end. thats not to say it isnt possible - it is (for instance, by using FM and tuning the 2nd oscillator up/saturating the filter pretty hard/using rectified or digital distortion/lots of filter resonance with the cutoff very high/using the 3 band EQ on the virus c/post processing/or a combination of some or all of the above). but it takes a little more effort and a little more thought. thats the work that you as a producer should do. if you fail to achieve this, it is not because of something inherantly wrong in the instrument. it is a failure on your part to make anything happen using that instrument.

my advice - try harder. try some things differently. if you spent this much time and money it would be a shame to see all of that go to waste. and maybe this will be reassuring, but most of us have been through periods where we just cannot build any sounds we seem to like. part of being a good producer and a good musician is trying to overcome these barriers. many people here would be ecstatic to own a nord lead. i can think of quite a few people around here who could really build some amazing things on it. having played on a nord lead 2x myself and having heard too many records to mention that have put this instrument to good use, you will have to excuse me for believing that you are flat out wrong.

just one question though. out of curiousity. why did you (at various points) decide to buy all the nord lead models? including both rack and keyboard versions?

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative this happens alot but if you let it get to you then thats a shame. a synth is like any instrument - it is only limited by the ability of the musician that is playing it. synths dont just sit well in the mix by default, nor is it the hallmark of a good synth. the virus is certainly no exception because, quite the opposite of the nord lead, it is difficult to get very bright sounds out of it - the raw waveforms have very little top end. thats not to say it isnt possible - it is (for instance, by using FM and tuning the 2nd oscillator up/saturating the filter pretty hard/using rectified or digital distortion/lots of filter resonance with the cutoff very high/using the 3 band EQ on the virus c/post processing/or a combination of some or all of the above). but it takes a little more effort and a little more thought. thats the work that you as a producer should do. if you fail to achieve this, it is not because of something inherantly wrong in the instrument. it is a failure on your part to make anything happen using that instrument. my advice - try harder. try some things differently. if you spent this much time and money it would be a shame to see all of that go to waste. and maybe this will be reassuring, but most of us have been through periods where we just cannot build any sounds we seem to like. part of being a good producer and a good musician is trying to overcome these barriers. many people here would be ecstatic to own a nord lead. i can think of quite a few people around here who could really build some amazing things on it. having played on a nord lead 2x myself and having heard too many records to mention that have put this instrument to good use, you will have to excuse me for believing that you are flat out wrong. just one question though. out of curiousity. why did you (at various points) decide to buy all the nord lead models? including both rack and keyboard versions?

First of all, thanks for rational reply and not jumping out with flaming. I would agree with you that instrument is only limited by artist's imagination or lack thereof. However, some instruments have more or better presense than others. It all depends on application, right? I mean if I wanted to write a pure "death-metal" tune, I would not use a violin as an exclusive instrument to create it with.

I am sure you agree that on a basic level, every instrument has some sort of characteristic and certain limitations. Sure, they may be virtually endless but without examining each sound on a microscopic level, I am sure we can deduce that each synth has a particular sound and application where it excells.

Let's not throw away baby with bath water but at the same time I should clarify my statement. For my musical application, I found Nord synths dull. Perhaps for someone else this will be just the ticket. Sure, my initial comments were based on more of an emotional response to technology (heh! BT, eat your heart out!).

Hence my disapointment with Nord. It just failed to "wow" me.

To further prove my point about instrument and application, let's do a quick test. I name instrument, you think of association - e.g. what would you associate it with. My thoughts are included below.

Example: Electric Guitar - Rock

So, let's go:

Moog - Bass, leads
303 - Bass, acid lines
Jupiter 8 - "Rio" arp, spacey pads, lush basses
JP8080 - Supersaw


and....

Nord Lead - ......... er... mmm...

Sorry, can't really think of any example, perhaps short of "Solar Stone - 7th City", for "that guitar" sound (which, ironically got me interested in Nord in the first place).

Oh, and to answer your question about nords, why did I have all models at different times? Simple - trying out different ideas, to see what worked.

Started initially with Nord Lead 3 Kbd. Didn't like it too much - had no built in FX and I was a beginner then. Didn't really appreciate the flexibility of synth (vs. rompler). Returned to the store virtually the same day.

Then, I picked up a 2x - that one actually got me quite interested but filters were too cold and too harsh for my ears. So, on e-bay it went.

I then traded some obscure gear for original rack version of Nord - as it got rave reviews from trance producers. I had the 12voice version. I liked it but it was just sounded too damn thin in the mix and compared to my arsenal of Analogs - it just didn't stand out. So, I sold it.

Right after I sold it I had a great deal offered to me to pick up NL3 rack. Figuring it's been 3 years since I tried NL3 and now that I have a decent external FX unit - this could be the freshness I was looking for. Plus I was looking for some decent EP/Wurlie type sounds. Well, I was actually more impressed with NL1 than NL3 in that area.

so, that's the reason for my critique.

But positives are:
1. Styling
2. Pitchstick and Mod wheels
3. Size
4. NL3 design - to die for.

It is a cool instrument but I just have a love-hate relationship with it and it turned more towards dislike lately.

oh, and I am not a synth novice - I don't rely on patches for anything more than demo of synth range and capability.

I "roll my own" ;-).

well with regards to my question...i cant see why anyone would buy a nord lead 3 keyboard, take it back the same day, then buy a nord rack 3 which is the same synth minus the keyboard, pitch stick and mod wheel.

i also dont see how you can really get deep into a synth having only used it for a day before returning it.

it took me about a year to start getting to grips with my virus b. enough that i was starting to build sounds on it from scratch which i liked. a whole year.

you must be a millionair spending (and wasting) your money that easy

I can imagine what your posts would look like on automobile forums: 'I bought a Ferrari yesterday but i didnt like the braking pedal, it's to wide, so I sold it on Ebay. The next day i bought a lamborghini, but then I realised I hate yellow, so I sold it.'

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 First of all, thanks for rational reply and not jumping out with flaming. I would agree with you that instrument is only limited by artist's imagination or lack thereof. However, some instruments have more or better presense than others. It all depends on application, right? I mean if I wanted to write a pure "death-metal" tune, I would not use a violin as an exclusive instrument to create it with. Example: Electric Guitar - Rock So, let's go: Moog - Bass, leads 303 - Bass, acid lines Jupiter 8 - "Rio" arp, spacey pads, lush basses JP8080 - Supersaw and.... Nord Modular - PSYTRANCE Sorry, can't really think of any example, perhaps short of "Solar Stone - 7th City", for "that guitar" sound (which, ironically got me interested in Nord in the first place).

Thought you said guitar was for rock?

What?? No violins in death metal? JP8080 only makes you think of supersaw?

Think outside the box.

Not sure what you produced but Its very subjective. Each synth does have characteristics and as you even said "t - but just like all the rest of nords, it lacked bottom end and it sounded thin no matter what you tried."
The fact that you thought it lacked bottom end and was thin, simply confirms that you acknowledge that it has a personality of its own, of which that you don't like. IMO, the nord sound is distinguishable when we're talking VAs. Its bright and bold and very "upfront". It sounds like it can be harsh at times too. To me for instance, the virus has a wide sound.. almost like its always panned to each side.To me, nord's oscillators have good depth to them and sound round when comparing VAs.

"Certain synths are good at doing a limited of things.
Jupiter 8 - "Rio" arp, spacey pads, lush basses
JP8080 - Supersaw"

I agree here.... Yes, you have many possibilities and usually you can get many different sounds off one little synth, but usually, despite what the manufactures want us to believe, they are limited.. specifically to their timbre or "sound" as we might call it. Thats why you got people who seek synths specifically for their character or to play a specific role in their mix. As you had your list going:


""So, let's go:"""

Moog - Bass, leads
303 - Bass, acid lines
Jupiter 8 - "Rio" arp, spacey pads, lush basses
JP8080 - Supersaw


and....

Nord Lead - sharp cutting edge leads .......think Nine inch nails, crystal method, prodigy, etc.


Again, much of this is subjective, but hopefully it can help you understand why these are sought after synthesizers for a variety of genres.

Correct me if im wrong, but didn't the NL2 rock the hell out of the psytrance scene around 96? Those plastic low-passed sweeps, qweeks and tweaks! The Nordlead actually defined psytrance at that time...

Anyways, like someone said; "think out of the box"
If you can't use it for what you thought you would, use it for what you can instead and maybe you'll discover/learn to like a whole new sound.

And if i don't remember wrong, whilst i was floinking with it in a music store... i just got amazed by that lush distorstion unit it had, very crisp and sweet... sure it will be defined in a tune, without a doubt as long as you don't process it further with external effects... as nowdays it's popular to colour your sound with diffrent analogue filters...

I think you can make some pretty spaced out plucks and leads with the Lead! Tune upp the dist, use squares and lowpass put on some sweet delay, compression and long tailed reverb.... you'll probably hear it's a Lead-lead/pluck

Oh, and don't forget... sounding "thin" alone isn't always "thin" in a mix!

the nord lead 2 *still* rocks the hell out of psytrance.

every second psytrance tune these days has a nord lead and/or a 303 (or 303 emu) in it.

Hmf. Lots of good thoughts. I guess to each their own. I guess I am spoiled when it comes to synths.

I had owned most of the VAs you can imagine and for some reason Nord is the most memorable. For me - it was in a negative way. So, the poster above is right - it does have a character. Just not what I'd consider desirable for the sounds I am looking for.

I kid you not, there are very few synths out there that I haven't owned or used. Nord was probably the one of the few pieces of kit that impressed me the least. Especially at the price point??

Take Matrix 1000 - for $200, even without any external tweakability - that synth is a monster!!!! For the same price you would shell out on new Nord Rack, you can pick up 7 Matrix 1000's (for 42 voice poly) and have some money left for MIDI controller.

Perhaps you are right - for particular soundscape, such as goa/psy - this is the ticket. For lush pads, trancey leads, bleh bleh bleh - it just didn't cut it.

Not to say that the instrument is useless or not good. Just a personal point of view.

I'm sure that some people could say that Ferrari is awesome and there are some folks who would say it sucks. So, to each their own.

Some of the gear I owned or still own:

Akai AX80
Alesis Andromeda
Alesis Ion
Access Virus A
Access Virus B
Access Virus Kb
Access Virus kC
Access Virus Indigo Redback
Clavia Nord Lead 1
Nord Lead 2
Nord Lead 2x
Nord Lead 3
Cheetah MS6
Emu XL-7, PX-7, Vintage Archives modules
Future Retro Revolution
Future Retro 777
Kawai XD-5
Kawai K5000s
Novation supernova II (rack/kbd)
Novation drumstation
Novation KStation
Korg Triton Studio
Korg Triton Rack
Korg MS2000
Korg Z1
Korg Ex-8000
Korg Wavestation
Oberheim Matrix 1000
Oberheim Matrix 12
Roland system 101
Roland Jupiter 8
Roland Jupiter 6
Roland MKS-80
Roland MKS-70
Roland TB-303
Roland TR-909
Roland TR-808
Roland JD-800
Roland Juno 106
Roland JP-8080
Roland XP-60
Roland XV-5080
Roland A-70
SCI Prophet VS
Yamaha AN1x
Yamaha AN200
Yamaha DX200
Yamaha Motif

i hate to say it but you have owned (or still own) far too much gear.

you cant have touced on even a hundredth. even a thousandth of what just a handful of those synths are capable of.

and that really is a shame.

it took me about more than 18 months until I got some decent sounds
of my nord rack 2. Right at this time I had already sold the damn thing on ebay but I hadn't sent it away yet. What an irony


When I bought it, I felt a great disappointment. I bought for the creation of uplifiting trance sounds, fat pads and phat chrystal clear
lead sounds --> I should have tested more before buying.
It took me a very long time until I could make that sounds with the nord lead...lots of tweaking and eqing.

The only thing I liked was that agressive sound if you played with the
LFOs and Unisono, and also making some acid sounds using an external distortion device. For Psy it might be good somehow, but I felt very disappointed since I had bought it for uplifting trance.

I bought a Virus Powercore then. At first I missed the harsh heights of the Nord Rack 2 (thought it sounded more analog). But I never regretted selling the nord rack.

emc^2, I really disagree with you. Nord Lead 2 has a great sound and NL3 has a great sound plus creative design. Nord Lead is suitable for any kind of music, including uplifting trance. In fact, Chicane has two NL2 synths and his sound is very uplifting! A lot of trance producers uses NL2. And NL3 is suitable to get similar sounds to JP80x0's supersaw, much more than Supernova 2 and Virus could get (I have both, I know that!). I use NL3 samples loaded on my EXS24/Logic all the time, because I love the NL3 sound (unfortunately, I cannot buy a NL3 now...)
If Gabriel & Dresden (Motorcycle) could get trance sounds only from ES1 (Logic), do you think it's impossible to get the similar sounds from Clavia NL? Ah, nowadays I know it's possible make any kind of music using any piece of hadrware or software. So, please...

The nl3 makes some amazing violin sounds and plucked sounds but overall i dont like the sound of the filters or the osc...

i like the 4 pole filter on the nord lead 2x. i didnt like the 2 pole filter though because using resonance on it makes the sound awfully awfully thin and quiet.

but the oscillators rock. although im a virus b user so its pretty much the opposite way around. alot of the bright sounds that require meticulous saturation and FM syncing/ring modulation on the virus are straight up and no fu/cking around on the nord lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative i like the 4 pole filter on the nord lead 2x. i didnt like the 2 pole filter though because using resonance on it makes the sound awfully awfully thin and quiet. but the oscillators rock. although im a virus b user so its pretty much the opposite way around. alot of the bright sounds that require meticulous saturation and FM syncing/ring modulation on the virus are straight up and no fu/cking around on the nord lead.

Yeah i really wish they would rewrite the virus osc and give it some sort of model of a discrete osc(moog modular, jp8 etc) those osc's are really powerfull that + the good filters on the virus =

Re: Clavia Nord Lead diss thread. Yeah, it sucks.

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 I had all models: Nord Rack (NL1) Nord 2 Keys Nord 2x Keys Nord 3 Keys Nord 3 Rack The only one that induced some kind of emotion out of me was Nord 2x - it had few pretty cool and agressive leads, some phat pads and saws. The rest, might as well have not existed.

Christ man, where did you get the cash to get all these synths? And if you say it had a few good leads and pads it sounds like you used presets only:O

If you had the cash to buy 5 synths your best bet would probably have been to use a Nord 3 in combination with a Virus TI. And trying to program them yourself from an init before judging it.

kind regards,

Charlie D

Back in the day when i bought my Virus A i had to choose between it and the Nord Lead 2.
As said before the pure wave forms of the Nord Lead are more clear than the virus but i still went for the Virus because the Nord Lead lacks any kind of onboard FX , no Delay even. Since i already owned a JP8080 i went for the virus.

If NL's had FX onboard i think i would have gone for it.

quote:

Originally posted by groundzero74 As said before the pure wave forms of the Nord Lead are more clear than the virus If NL's had FX onboard i think i would have gone for it.

Yes that is what I like about the Nords. INdeed, the oscillator are more round and the waveforms are more pronounced and it sounds more defined than the virus. It gives it a very upfront sound to it.., which is good sometimes, but not all the time. To me, it's that in particular that set it apart from other VAs, and worth getting, especially for what an used Nord 2 runs for nowadays 400-500. I wouldn't worry to much about the onboard FX if you own a virus. Virus FX are probably the best onboard FX i've heard on a VA, and you could easily use the virus as an external fx box (thats how good they sound IMO). Or as an alternative, since you can pick up an used nord, you can always buy a decent external reverb fx module for about 200 (m-one from T.C. electronic), or go an extra notch up to a lexicon mpx1 (300-350). I don't believe in using to cheap of an fx module (e.g. lexicon mpx-110) as it would defeat the purpose of running a good sound source (nord) to cheap fx box. And of course, lastly or first, you can always use plugins for the FX, but of course you can only apply the effects to wave files, given that your recording things to wave.

I personally don't like the sound of the Nord 3 to much. Sounds kinda digital and reminds me a little bit of the waldorf sound.

quote:

If NL's had FX onboard i think i would have gone for it.

i actually think the nord is better for having no effects on it. the only effect on it is the distortion unit and although its more limited than the virus distortion, in my opinion it sounds 10 times more pleasant and its more usable.

the delay on the virus isnt really that hot. only a 0.5ms delay time and its not global and cannot be used with reverb. id rather use fruity delay/delay 2 to be honest :\

the virus reverb im sorry to say is quite simply OWNED by SIR 1.008 + lexicon PCM91 hall responses. and the latter is all free.

the chorus is ok though - i use that one regularly and it does sound better than fruity chorus and is really good at adding just that little extra grit to a massive pad type patch.

the phaser is pretty awesome if you keep the stages low and use it subtly (its great for adding a little extra movement to a sound, especially, if you mix it in at low level and set it as a destination for random oscillation or use one of the wavetables as a source)

distortion i dont really know what to think of. i dislike the sound of all of them except for rectification which behaves entirely differently to all the other distortion types on the virus, and probably only because i dont have a software rectifier.

for tube saturation i would rather use the freeware greastetube. for digital distortion i would rather use the freeware SC_Overdrive. for high/band/low pass analogue distortion i would rather use the freeware plugin - tridirt.

quote:

If you had the cash to buy 5 synths your best bet would probably have been to use a Nord 3 in combination with a Virus TI. And trying to program them yourself from an init before judging it.

in my humble opinion nobody needs more than 1 virtual analogue synth.

for the price of those 2 - thats about 2.5 to 3 grand you could get a real analogue polysynth (like a roland juno-60 for �400 used) a classic analogue mono synth (sequential pro-one for �450 used), a digital wavetable monster (waldorf microwave xt rack for about �300 used), an awesome virtual analogue workhorse synth (virus b or nl 2x rack for about �350 used), a decent midi keyboard and NI Kontakt to meet all your sampling needs on your PC.

obviously it would be a REALLY bad idea to buy all that in one go though since it would be as confusing as hell. but with that 2.5 grand i would easily stick 2.1 of it in a high interest savings account. buy one of those awesome synths. spend a year using it and getting familiar with it, then taking out another 400 or so to buy another one once you have mastered the instrument you already have.

and you will undoubtedly have chump change left afterwards in interest to buy ice cream.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative the virus reverb im sorry to say is quite simply OWNED by SIR 1.008 + lexicon PCM91 hall responses. and the latter is all free.

Interesting... didnt know there were lexicon impulses available. I'm checking out now.

do you have the Nordish By Nature Nordlead 3 Soundset?



If so, can I PM you?

That's nice as hell.

quote:

Originally posted by bachatu Interesting... didnt know there were lexicon impulses available. I'm checking out now.

you can get them from www.noisevault.com.

theres a tonne of PCM91 reverbs including the plates. they are sampled from the actual unit and whoever did it, did a very good job.

as long as you can put up with the 8960 sample delay that comes with SIR (or you have latency compensation in your host), then that is pretty much the best reverb you will ever get for free.

and it beats the living shit out of most DSP reverb effects.

Re: Re: Clavia Nord Lead diss thread. Yeah, it sucks.

quote:

Originally posted by nhibberd Christ man, where did you get the cash to get all these synths? And if you say it had a few good leads and pads it sounds like you used presets only:O If you had the cash to buy 5 synths your best bet would probably have been to use a Nord 3 in combination with a Virus TI. And trying to program them yourself from an init before judging it. kind regards, Charlie D

Charlie, as I said in that post - I don't own all of them now, I just listed all the synths I had at one point or another. Right now my collection is rather small... "ONLY" 14 Synths...

I don't just buy for production - for me it's a hobby and sometimes if I see a good deal, I'd buy something - play with it and sell it (most of the time) at profit. Actually, come to think of it - some purchases paid for more than itself when sold. Like a Jupe 8 I bought for $2K and sold for $4K (yes... really). That paid for Prophet VS, Supernova II, and several other synths. So, while I went through many different pieces of gear - there are few that I hold dear to my heart.

Nord lead was a promissing synth and actually 2x is probably the best of the bunch.

To make a judgement about my synth programming skills simply based on your own opinion is rather haste. I spent a considerable amount learning the synths basics on crappy synths before moving into more complex ones. Also, if you know anything about different synths - each has its own personality and sound. But the defining source of synth "timbre" is the sound generation and shaping engine. If that's weak, nothing will help you.

Each synth has a finite raw block of sound that can be further shaped into what you want to hear. Once you reach that limit, you either need to use external methods to change the sound or... pick another synth.

For example, MATRIX 1000 has awesome pads and some of the most magical sounds - but most of them won't be discovered, unless you transpose into lower octaves. This is especially true for brass sounds. Also, regardless of how well you program M1K, you can't force it to have snappy basses or force it to do agressive saw bases - it just can't do it, it's a limitation of the circuitry. You can, however, try to compress it or run it through plug-ins to achieve that with distortion and some other tools - but natively you're SOL.

Hence my assesment of Nord. It's not meant to berate it as a useful instrument or say that it is a bad piece of kit - I'm just exposing the limitations of the synth for the benefit of those who may be looking to plunge their hard earned cash on this rather lavish but underpowered instrument. Just like 303 has it's neiche, I'm sure nord does too. I just didn't like it and it is in no way should be translated as my thoughts about owners of this instrument.

Some will love it and some may agree with me. So, just some info for random absorbtion and sharing.

fair enough?

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