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Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

You won't read this in your corn-fed sterile American press, that's for sure.

Enjoy this live-on-the-scene article by the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/st...1637213,00.html

quote:

'We hate France and France hates us' � Rioters vent anger at government and police � Curfews imposed under law used in Algerian war Jon Henley in Sevran They are gathered, as every night, on the edge of the car park at the foot of the block. Far enough into the shadows not to be easily seen; close enough to the stairwell to leg it inside if the police come near. Sylla, Sossa, Karim, Rachid, Mounir and Samir are the names they give. The oldest is 21, the youngest 15. One is an apprentice plumber; another is on work experience as a cook at a cafe in nearby Aulnay-sous-Bois; one is claiming benefit; two are (sort of) at school. Three are "known to the police". This estate, the Rougemont in Sevran, about 15 miles north of Paris, was one of the first to flare in France's outbreak of rolling urban violence, which has lasted 12 nights and in which nearly 6,000 cars have gone up in flames, dozens of schools, community centres and shops have been wrecked, and 1,500 people arrested. There are many reasons for the violence. "Because we hate, because we're mad, because we've had it up to here," said Rachid, parka hood up against the cold. "Look around you. This place is shit, it's a dump. We have nothing here. There's nothing for us." Sylla, 18, has a more specific target for his rage. "Les keufs, man, the cops. They're Sarkozy's and Sarkozy must go, he has to shut his mouth, say sorry or just fuck off. He shows no respect. He calls us animals, he says he'll clean the cit�s with a power hose. He's made it worse, man. Every car that goes up, that's one more message for him." The interior minister's forces, of which there are some 9,500 on duty around the country, are loathed. "They harass you, they hassle you, they insult you the whole time, ID checks now, scooter checks next. They call you ****** names," said Karim, 17. "I got caught the other week smoking on the train. OK, you shouldn't smoke on the train. But we get to Aulnay station, there are six cops waiting for us, three cars. They did the whole body search, they had me with my hands on the roof of the car. One said: 'Go back home, Arab. Screw your race'." The prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, said yesterday that France would "guarantee public order to all its citizens", although the violence might take "some time" to quell. The government approved emergency measures announced on Monday, imposing curfews at local authorities' discretion. The penalty for those who violate them could be two months in jail. On the streets after midnight on Monday, the measure provoked disbelief. "It's bad, it's really serious," said Djaoued, 21, a couple of miles down the road near the Ch�ne-Pointu estate in Clichy-sous-Bois, where the riots began on October 27. "On the radio they said the last time they used that law was in the Algerian war. Is that stupid or what? Ninety percent of the people who live here are Arabs. What does that tell them? Fifty years later, you're still different? We're not allowed outside, and everyone else is?" Back in Sevran, someone was attempting to set fire to George-Brassens college. Sirens wailed as half a dozen police cars and fire engines screamed along the Avenue Andr� Rousseau. "It's so easy," said Ali, 16. "You need a beer bottle, a bit of petrol or white spirit, a strip of rag and a lighter. Cars are better, though, when the tank goes. One of you smashes a window, the other lobs the bottle." Ali's friend was an Arsenal fan: "Thierry Henry, man! But he never scores for France." Does he feel French? "We hate France and France hates us," he spat, refusing to give even his first name. "I don't know what I am. Here's not home; my gran's in Algeria. But in any case France is just fucking with us. We're like mad dogs, you know? We bite everything we see. Go back to Paris, man." Sylla summed it up. "We burn because it's the only way to make ourselves heard, because it's solidarity with the rest of the non-citizens in this country, with this whole underclass. Because it feels good to do something with your rage," he said. "The guys whose cars get torched, they understand. OK, sometimes they do. We have to do this. Our parents, they should understand. They did nothing, they suffered in silence. We don't have a choice. We're sinking in shit, and France is standing on our heads. One way or another we're heading for prison. It might as well be for actually doing something."

So they're angry because they're criminals and because Sarkozy says he'll clean the streets of them? I'm sure if you'd have interviewed Al Capone he could rationalize his actions better than these jerks.

Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd You won't read this in your corn-fed sterile American press, that's for sure.

Which part of this is it that you think will be left out of the American press?

While I do understand that the situation in France is a bit more complicated and involves certain economic hardships and open-door immigrant policies, these kids must have to realize that their destructive behavior does them and the rest of their country much more harm than good in getting their point across.

Unfortunately they are young, stupid, and quite impressionable. Change will not occur by their violent actions.

Re: Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Which part of this is it that you think will be left out of the American press?

Yea I'm wondering that too. I pretty much heard the same arguments from kids they interviewed on NPR. The only difference is that the kids NPR interviewed were much more articulate and rational.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 these kids must have to realize that their destructive behavior does them and the rest of their country much more harm than good in getting their point across.

While that is true in most countries, In France ppl pretty often do violent things to protest the government by creating chaos. Like the farmers that pretty much blocks whole towns if they dont get as they want to. And usually that is seen as something good. But this is seen as a catostrophy, even by the French. So imo, it is kinda silly that most dont realise the problems behind these "attacks".

I guess this is more destructive though, but still, violence as a way of protesting is nothing that uncommon in France. That said I do think these ppl deserve to get jailed for a long time. I just think they should treat other protesters the same. Never heard Nicolas Sarkozy call farmers scum after a short time of their protests. I mean the farmers would probably go nuts as well if they were told that by protesting in their French way.

It's very obvious why the riots occured after reading this article (ofcourse it not a good thing). But the underlying reason are equally deplorable. And cops treating people like shit (especially minorities), isn't such a big surprise eigther (and neighter is racism). Come on guys. I'm not excusing them of all the damage they've done or the people who were hurt in the process, but France (atleast the govermnt and other institutions) are also largely responsible.

Re: Re: Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yea I'm wondering that too. I pretty much heard the same arguments from kids they interviewed on NPR. The only difference is that the kids NPR interviewed were much more articulate and rational.

When you hear "articulate" and "rational" comments from older youths, it's hard to understand the rage and desperation of the majority.

But when you hear strongly worded anger like "We hate France. We've had it up to here. Look around you. This place is shit. It's a dump. There's nothing for us here" - then you begin to get a glimpse of the real outrage.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd When you hear "articulate" and "rational" comments from older youths, it's hard to understand the rage and desperation of the majority. But when you hear strongly worded anger like "We hate France. We've had it up to here. Look around you. This place is shit. It's a dump. There's nothing for us here" - then you begin to get a glimpse of the real outrage.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not excusing them of [...], but France (atleast the govermnt and other institutions) are also largely responsible.

That's a contradiction in terms. Shifting parts of blame from party A to party B *is* excusing party A. At least I can't come up with any other meaning for the word "excuse".

And, come to think of it, what is it in this report that constitutes the smoking gun? As far as I can see there's nothing new here. Nothing that hasn't been stated by the riot-apologists over and over before.
As to the horrific example of the youth (sounds much better than "rioter" btw.) getting caught breaking the law on smoking, I fail to see why this should cause such an outrage. I have a friend who were thrown in jail, because he refused to give up his name to a police officer, who refused to show my friend his badge. I've been yelled at for riding with no lights on my bike. Cops are assholes sometimes. Get over it - they're people too.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic That's a contradiction in terms. Shifting parts of blame from party A to party B *is* excusing party A. At least I can't come up with any other meaning for the word "excuse".

No it isn't. Pointing out the mistakes of each party involded doesn't constitute shifting blame from party A to B or vice-vers, it's simply acknowledging what each party has done wrong. Trancaholic, you're a smart guy. You should understand better than anybody. In most cases if two parties are in conflict, it is usually not the case that either party is entirely free of blame or entirely guilty. Although this situation sucks, I don't think it's unusuall for a desperate and discontent group anywhere (especially one that isn't receiving equal treatment/is discriminated against), regardelss of what group it is, to reach a point where they just won't take it anymore and voice their frustration whichever way they can.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic And, come to think of it, what is it in this report that constitutes the smoking gun? As far as I can see there's nothing new here. Nothing that hasn't been stated by the riot-apologists over and over before.

I'm not an apologist. If there's a serious imbalance when a certain situation is being assessed and analyzed (especially when one group is unfairly being largely blamed for it), I view it a responsibility to balance the scale. The reason why the "apologists" are repeating the same thing over and over again is because people are ignoring or not giving due consideration to different aspects of the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic As to the horrific example of the youth (sounds much better than "rioter" btw.) getting caught breaking the law on smoking, I fail to see why this should cause such an outrage. I have a friend who were thrown in jail, because he refused to give up his name to a police officer, who refused to show my friend his badge. I've been yelled at for riding with no lights on my bike. Cops are assholes sometimes. Get over it - they're people too.

I think you really missed the point here. You're focusing on micros instead of understanding the macro. The gist of the arcticle isn't a few incidences of unfair treatment, it's a repetitive pattern of unjust and unequall treatemnet. Ask a black man in the US how cops hasstle them and even arrest them for no reason (yes, this still happens). Quoting the article:

quote:

Sylla, 18, has a more specific target for his rage. "Les keufs, man, the cops. They're Sarkozy's and Sarkozy must go, he has to shut his mouth, say sorry or just fuck off. He shows no respect. He calls us animals, he says he'll clean the cit�s with a power hose. He's made it worse, man. Every car that goes up, that's one more message for him." The interior minister's forces, of which there are some 9,500 on duty around the country, are loathed. "They harass you, they hassle you, they insult you the whole time, ID checks now, scooter checks next. They call you ****** names," said Karim, 17. "I got caught the other week smoking on the train. OK, you shouldn't smoke on the train. But we get to Aulnay station, there are six cops waiting for us, three cars. They did the whole body search, they had me with my hands on the roof of the car. One said: 'Go back home, Arab. Screw your race'.

If someone where treated in this way consistanly, I wouldnt say "get over it." It's a fairly serious issue that needs to be addressed. What do you not understand about that?

P.S I'm not angry or mad. Now I'm responding very directly instead of trying to be very diplomatic and beating around the bush.

There is NO justification for the riots whatsoever, end of story.

Is really CNN a news channel?


Actually, I can understand the point of view of these youths, they are not only dumb drug dealers, some post-graduated have been involved in these events (I don't really like "riots").
The urban policy is a catastroph since 50 years, the politicians don't pay attention to the squalid council flat. Moreover, the unemployement rate is near 40% in these suburbs. Trust me, Fox is better than the USSR TV to say bullshit...
So the fire spreads on with these dumb words of Sarkozy, he mixed the dealers with the others.
As the suffering was there, they react against Sarkozy, but break a shop window or burn a car is stupid imo. Violence settles nothing.

yeah CNN should be ashamed to show such a map .....
anyways nothing excuse the behavior of these people ....to me
i've been told this quote " violence is the weapon of the weaks"....

quote:

Originally posted by h0tsweetbabyd0l yeah CNN should be ashamed to show such a map .....

Is it CNN's fault or Google's? Or both? But yeah--a pretty pathetic map either way.

Edit: I do agree. CNN should check the validity of everything they put on TV. They seem to be going for the "It's on the Internet so it's correct" method.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka CNN should check the validity of everything they put on TV. They seem to be going for the "It's on the Internet so it's correct" method.

CNN is the TV equivalent of American food. Bland, artificial, boring.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

lol at the map Strasbourg seems to be all the way in Slovenia. Anyway...

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd When you hear "articulate" and "rational" comments from older youths, it's hard to understand the rage and desperation of the majority. But when you hear strongly worded anger like "We hate France. We've had it up to here. Look around you. This place is shit. It's a dump. There's nothing for us here" - then you begin to get a glimpse of the real outrage.

Yeah but outrage at what exactly? Just look at the people who are outraging. 3 are known criminals, 2 are "sort of" at school, whatever that means, and 1 is recieving welfare. What the hell are they complaining about? Especially the welfare guy?? He's getting money from the state for doing absolutely nothing except mugging people and selling drugs it seems, and he's still not happy! The only thing that can be done in such neighbourhoods is to increase the police patrols and get the scum off the streets, which seems to be exactly what Sarkozy is doing.

As for the police opressing them and taking them into stations for minor reasons, well, when you have a population whose 50% seems to have a criminal record (judging from the 3/6 ratio of the interviewing rioters) you can't really act the same as if you're patrolling somewhere in North Dakota. There's a big chance that the guy you bring in is guilty for something, it's just a matter of fidning out what.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Yeah but outrage at what exactly?

It's questions like yours that any sane person would ask if he were listening to NPR and the bland American networks.

If life was pretty grim, though liveable, I'd also have to ask: Outrage at what, exactly?

The answer to your question is that there's a lot, apparently, to be outraged about, otherwise the situation would be nowhere as heated as it is now.

And you might glimpse the answers by reading articles that are frank, uncensored, and preferably foreign.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd It's questions like yours that any sane person would ask if he were listening to NPR and the bland American networks. If life was pretty grim, though liveable, I'd also have to ask: Outrage at what, exactly? The answer to your question is that there's a lot, apparently, to be outraged about, otherwise the situation would be nowhere as heated as it is now. And you might glimpse the answers by reading articles that are frank, uncensored, and preferably foreign.

Yeah well except that I don't live in the US and therefore get most of my news from those foreign and uncensored networks.

People don't always outrage at something because they are right. Sometimes they outrage because they just think they're right.

...and this is why you don't depend on the government for handouts and solutions to everything folks...

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z It's very obvious why the riots occured after reading this article

...
...
...

Ummmmm, I dont know what to say. Perhaps you have researched more sources, kept up on the issue through multiple avenues of information, and this one article has triggered the epiphany that you put in this statement.
Because I really hope you didnt just categorize the whole situation in France and make up your mind after reading one article posted on the internet. I really hope so.

Also I dont care how you reply to this because only you know whether or not you took this article as the basis for your judgements and little or nothing else.

edit: After reading the other Riots in France thread it would appear that you did not base everything you think about France on this one article, but intead of retracting my statement please word phrases like the one I quoted better next time. Statements like that throw up so many red flags that its hard to move on sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 While I do understand that the situation in France is a bit more complicated and involves certain economic hardships and open-door immigrant policies, these kids must have to realize that their destructive behavior does them and the rest of their country much more harm than good in getting their point across.

Isn't this the general pattern though?

Doesn't a "successful" Islamic terrorist make life more difficult for all the law abiding muslims than it does for the rest of us?

Do Islamic "insurgents" in Iraq make life more difficult for the people of Iraq or for american soldiers?

Jyhad isn't a war fought by muslims agains the west. Jyhad is a war fought by muslims against themselves. Just so happens that attacking the west is the most efficient way of doing it...

quote:

Originally posted by Synthesia There is NO justification for the riots whatsoever, end of story.

Exactly!

quote:

Originally posted by jonSun Exactly!

+1

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No it isn't. Pointing out the mistakes of each party involded doesn't constitute shifting blame from party A to B or vice-vers, it's simply acknowledging what each party has done wrong.

I'd like to hear what you consider shifting blame. Just a few concrete examples would be nice. As I read your reasoning here, there can be no such thing as shifting blame. Furthermore, you didn't really say what you mean by "excusing". What does it mean to excuse to you? How would one go about excusing the rioters (since you're suuposedly not doing it)?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Trancaholic, you're a smart guy. You should understand better than anybody. In most cases if two parties are in conflict, it is usually not the case that either party is entirely free of blame or entirely guilty.

Well, two things. First of all you're using induction here, and even from a generalization of previous conflicts ("usually"). Personally I have been in conflicts where I did nothing wrong (didn't know the aggressor at all), invalidating the universality of the generalization, so I hesitate to accept your argument.
Second, you are failing to realize that this is *not* a conflict between two parties. If we for the moment being accept as truth that employers and police officers are discriminating against these people, then we would have a conflict of at least eight parties: the rioters, the large group of people being discriminated against, the shop-owners, the discriminating employers, the discriminating police officers, police officers, innocent people, and the French government. The simplistic dichotomy does not apply here. Maybe you've been listening to your president for too long.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Although this situation sucks, I don't think it's unusuall for a desperate and discontent group anywhere (especially one that isn't receiving equal treatment/is discriminated against), regardelss of what group it is, to reach a point where they just won't take it anymore and voice their frustration whichever way they can.

Please be concrete: What injustice is it that these people have been denied? It's all very vague to me, and the groundbreaking article that this thread started with does nothing to rectify that situation.
If the whole shebang is the razzias by the police, there are safety measures build into modern democracies that the people feeling mistreated should use. Fine, they might not all be sufficiently educated to use these, but as has been mentioned before, they do have among them people with quite good educations, and they do have a obviously well-functioning network and sense of organization. So the lack of education/stupidy is not an excuse for not doing so. Furthermore, if these people think that there is some sort of racial motivation behind the police actions, they should be able to document this from police reports. My guess is that once you condition on age, precinct, and time of day, you'll find that all races are stopped and harassed equally often.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not an apologist. If there's a serious imbalance when a certain situation is being assessed and analyzed (especially when one group is unfairly being largely blamed for it), I view it a responsibility to balance the scale. The reason why the "apologists" are repeating the same thing over and over again is because people are ignoring or not giving due consideration to different aspects of the issue.

If we start directing our attention away from the riots and onto the troubles of stupid people in France, then we have shown the rioters that riots work. Same thing with giving in to a kidnapper/terrorist. Moreover, I fail to see the rational reason why "due consideration" should be raised for an issue, because of something like this? Either the issue is worth investigating, or it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I think you really missed the point here. You're focusing on micros instead of understanding the macro. The gist of the arcticle isn't a few incidences of unfair treatment, it's a repetitive pattern of unjust and unequall treatemnet. Ask a black man in the US how cops hasstle them and even arrest them for no reason (yes, this still happens). Quoting the article: If someone where treated in this way consistanly, I wouldnt say "get over it." It's a fairly serious issue that needs to be addressed. What do you not understand about that?

Ok, you want to talk macro. How's this?
Are you aware that you are concluding based on a few first or second hand tales? What kind of evidence do you have for concluding that horrific levels of discrimination/injustice is taking place? That kind of adoption of beliefs is exactly the way racial prejudices become accepted. Do you *want* to believe that the French mistreats its immigrants?
If there's any truth to the "mistreatment", then be concrete: What, where, and how much. Then we can start talking about it.

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