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European's find evidence of secret prisions

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Probe backs CIA prison allegations PARIS, France -- European investigators say they have evidence that supports allegations the CIA "abducted and transferred" people between countries and temporarily held them "without any judicial involvement." "The information gathered to date has reinforced the credibility of the allegations concerning the transfer and temporary detention of individuals without any judicial involvement in European countries," Swiss Senator Dick Marty said in a report Tuesday. "Legal proceedings in progress in certain countries seemed to indicate that individuals had been abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal standards." The report by Marty, who heads the Council of Europe investigation, noted the allegations had never been formally denied by the United States. It did not specify which countries were involved. "It's still too early to say if there has been any involvement or complicity of member states in illegal actions," Marty said in the report to the human rights committee of the 46-nation council in Paris. "The seriousness of the allegations and the consistency of the information gathered to date justifies an in-depth inquiry," he said. "If the allegations proved correct, the member states would stand accused of having seriously breached their human rights obligations to the Council of Europe." During a news conference Tuesday, Marty said he believed the United States was no longer holding prisoners secretly in Europe, The Associated Press reported. Marty said he believed the detainees were moved to North Africa in early November, when reports about secret U.S. prisons first emerged in The Washington Post. He did not provide any other details, AP said. Poland and Romania have been identified by the New York-based Human Rights watch as sites of possible CIA secret prisons. But both countries have denied any involvement. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice faced repeated questions about the allegations during her recent trip to Europe but denied that the United States used European airspace or airports to transport detainees to countries where officials believed they would be tortured. Rice also denied that U.S. personnel engaged in torture, saying that U.S. interrogators abided by the Geneva Conventions. The U.S. State Department contended as recently as last week that suspected terrorists are not protected by the Geneva Conventions because they are not prisoners of war. However, a department spokesman said the United States applies the conventions to those suspected terrorists anyway. In the past, the Bush Administration has said the conventions do not apply to Americans working outside U.S. borders. Find this article at: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/e...rope/index.html

the plot thickens

While I despise the Bush adminstration with every fiber of my being, this is perhaps the most overhyped story on this planet, well Europe anyway. I read a lot of news from there and all I keep hearing is this story. What exactly do they want, the U.S. is scum, overbearing, polluters of the world. Many in Europe now views us as the enemy moreso than even the terrorists any longer. Odds are these events did happen, is the U.S. going to be referred to the ICC or something, what exactly is the purpose of this on Europe's part.

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan What exactly do they want

Undeniable accountability that would require serious changes to Bush administration policy & methods. Its difficult because the administration is very good at spinning things. Rice has admitted, yes we do fly prisoners abroad but no they're not torched...

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what exactly is the purpose of this on Europe's part.

Punishment for those that aided the US. If you're going to be in the Europe club you can't help the US carry out policies the club disagrees with.

We also want:

Human Rights.

Right to a fair trial.

Right to Justice / Defence.

US has abused physically and mentally prisoners in Iraq in past.

And it does the same in these secret prisons.

Otherwise their was no need for 'secret prisons'.

'Secret Prisons' are torture labs, they are concentration camps of modern era.

Fair enough then, I feel bad for those countries that harbor any support for the U.S. in Europe then. Odds are it is the Poland's, Romania's of Europe that will be singled out especially by Western Europe for sanctions or entry into E.U. in Romania's case.

LOL@people who think wars are EVER fought fairly or "nicely".

The Terrorists are in it to win...and in case you haven't noticed, they'll do ANYTHING to get there.

I don't think a little simple questioning would or will EVER get a Terrorist to talk.........but I'll bet some good old fashioned torturing would do the trick...it's worked throughout history.

I wonder would you be as open minded about torture if there were any us troops held captive and tortured on the daily basis by the other side, or would you be screaming blood murder then and try to unite the world agains those inhumane barbarians who dont give a fuck about the Geneva conventions.

Also note, if torture does help a little to open their mouths, then the 25.000 to 30.000 civilian casualties helps alot in cemmenting their mouth shut.

Americans have been tortured in every war I can think of since WW2 at least. Like I said, it happens in every war. It's not going to stop. There will never be one side that won't employ it. Human beings won't change. You have to fight back with the same visciounsness, or you won't win. I could care less about Al Quida being tortured...

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Americans have been tortured in every war I can think of since WW2 at least. Like I said, it happens in every war. It's not going to stop. There will never be one side that won't employ it. Human beings won't change. You have to fight back with the same visciounsness, or you won't win. I could care less about Al Quida being tortured...

Taken aside of the fact that it breaks just about every international treaty written on torture, from a "moral" standpoint, what is the sense of justice as we know it if we employ the same tactics as the very same shitheads that we are attempting to eliminate? By employing the very same evil tactics as our enemy, please tell me how we can be morally superior than the enemy itself.

Wait, I know, we don't torture the innocent, right? So all those individuals whom we've released from Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, and the other detention centers whom we have willfully tortured in efforts to obtain intelligence are not innocent, even though we let them go free, right? They deserved the torture given to them, despite the fact that they were innocent and had no intelligence to give whatsoever, right?

But wait, I know, we are fighting a war on terrorism, and we must, MUSt tell others to do as we say, not as we do, right? Because God forbid, if someone else were to employ the same tactics as us to prisoners, well gee, what the fuck then?:

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An Iraqi government search of a detention center in Baghdad operated by Interior Ministry special commandos found 13 prisoners who had suffered abuse serious enough to require medical treatment, U.S. and Iraqi officials said Sunday night. An Iraqi official with firsthand knowledge of the search said that at least 12 of the 13 prisoners had been subjected to "severe torture," including sessions of electric shock and episodes that left them with broken bones. "Two of them showed me their nails, and they were gone," the official said on condition of anonymity because of security concerns. . . . U.S. troops found the first site last month when they entered an Interior Ministry building in central Baghdad to look for a Sunni Arab teenager they believed had been detained, officers said at the time. Several prisoners at that site appeared to have suffered beatings, and many were emaciated, U.S. and Iraqi officials and witnesses said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1101002_pf.html

Ahh, we teachers have certainly taught the students well, haven't we?

But intelligence given through torture is always reliable, ain't it? It's always "worked throughout history", right?:

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[Bush Administration] officials said the captive, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, provided his most specific and elaborate accounts about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda only after he was secretly handed over to Egypt by the United States in January 2002, in a process known as rendition. The new disclosure provides the first public evidence that bad intelligence on Iraq may have resulted partly from the administration's heavy reliance on third countries to carry out interrogations of Qaeda members and others detained as part of American counterterrorism efforts. The Bush administration used Mr. Libi's accounts as the basis for its prewar claims, now discredited, that ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda included training in explosives and chemical weapons. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/p...artner=homepage

This isn't surprising at all:

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Remarkably, of the nation's major newspapers, only the Wall Street Journal has editorialized in support of torture as a useful tool of American intelligence policy. Regrettably, that position does a huge disservice to the nation and its soldiers. There are really only three issues in this debate, and the Journal carefully turned a blind eye to all three: (1) is torture reliable, (2) is it consistent with America's values and Constitution, and (3) does it best serve our national interests? No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives. Exhibit A is the torture-extracted confession of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al Qaeda captive who told the CIA in 2001, having been "rendered" to the tender mercies of Egypt, that Saddam Hussein had trained al Qaeda to use WMD. It appears that this confession was the only information upon which, in late 2002, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state repeatedly claimed that "credible evidence" supported that claim, even though a now-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report from February 2002 questioned the reliability of the confession because it was likely obtained under torture. In January 2004, al-Libi recanted his "confession," and a month later, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements. Exhibit B is the case of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi deemed a "high-value" target by the CIA. After being beaten to an extent that he had several broken ribs, he was subjected to a form of crucifixion known as "Palestinian hanging." Forty-five minutes later, he was dead, never having revealed whatever vital, ticking-bomb information his American interrogator was seeking. If there is reliable evidence that torture has, in fact, interrupted ticking time bombs and saved lives, the gravity of the crisis created by the administration's free-wheeling torture policy demands straight answers which can be weighed and evaluated by a bipartisan, blue-ribbon commission whose membership might include interrogators, jurists, theologians, national security specialists, military leaders, and political leaders. The damage to our national interests and the dismal record of war candor by this administration has made "trust us" an insufficient justification for such a profound change in American law and moral values....... http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

There's more to this article from the website. Now granted, that's a libral website, but get a load of the guy's credentials who wrote it:

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Brigadier General David R. Irvine is a retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School. He currently practices law in Salt Lake City, Utah.

So he kinda seems to know what the fuck he's talking about. There are other means of interrogation that are more effective and reliable which are at our military's disposal.

Our actions to torture are not justified, not legally, morally, nor strategically. And your plea for its continuance is quite uncompelling.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Taken aside of the fact that it breaks just about every international treaty written on torture, from a "moral" standpoint, what is the sense of justice as we know it if we employ the same tactics as the very same shitheads that we are attempting to eliminate? By employing the very same evil tactics as our enemy, please tell me how we can be morally superior than the enemy itself.

I don't see any religious extremists from this country flying planes in to buildings full of innocent people in Baghdad...but I'm sure some clever poster in here will say that by defination, the whole U.S. military machine has a conflicting religion to the muslim one at it's core, and by default, when that machine kills Iraqi civilians, then it is a form of state sponsored Terrorism.

Are we morally superior to our enemies? I think we are not perfect, but I think that we are superior in our beliefs and our sense of inherent rights to religious and social freedoms. So from that stand-point, I think that when it comes to employing torture tactics, we're still on the moral high-ground when all is said and done. I don't know about you, but I want to win this war on Terror, as bad as the Terrorists want to wipe us off the face of the earth. It's a war of anihilation, this one...the Terrorsist are not willing to comprimise.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco I don't see any religious extremists from this country flying planes in to buildings full of innocent people in Baghdad...but I'm sure some clever poster in here will say that by defination, the whole U.S. military machine has a conflicting religion to the muslim one at it's core, and by default, when that machine kills Iraqi civilians, then it is a form of state sponsored Terrorism.

That's a bit of a stretch, but extremism by any measure must be carefully avoided. Of course no religious extremist in this country dare goes to such a measure, but some extremists have been known to murder doctors that perform abortions, which last I checked, is still legal. Some have also blown themselves up along with innocent (albeit brainwashed) children (Waco). Some have also called upon the assassination of another sovereign countries' leader (Roberts), as well as blame the entire 9/11 fiasco on homosexuals. Some religious extremists in my own backyard go out and protest at funerals of soldiers laid to rest, stomping on the American flag in the process.

Are these as severe as flying in a building full of innocent people? No, but it's hard to argue just how much further they have to go to the extremist corner.

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Are we morally superior to our enemies? I think we are not perfect, but I think that we are superior in our beliefs and our sense of inherent rights to religious and social freedoms.

Agreed.

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So from that stand-point, I think that when it comes to employing torture tactics, we're still on the moral high-ground when all is said and done.

No.

Holding those moral and ethical values so dear does not make exceptions, otherwise you are compromising those very same morals we hold so tightly.

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I don't know about you, but I want to win this war on Terror, as bad as the Terrorists want to wipe us off the face of the earth. It's a war of anihilation, this one...the Terrorsist are not willing to comprimise.

Compromising does not = stop torture

Where did you come up with that equation? We can obtain reliable intelligence by other means that does not include torture (which I have yet to see anything that indicates intelligence gained from torture is reliable - perhaps you have some?). We can still obtain the moral highground, but not through these current means.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco I don't see any religious extremists from this country flying planes in to buildings full of innocent people in Baghdad...but I'm sure some clever poster in here will say that by defination, the whole U.S. military machine has a conflicting religion to the muslim one at it's core, and by default, when that machine kills Iraqi civilians, then it is a form of state sponsored Terrorism.

No I haven't seen religious extremists from this country flying planes into buildings. What I have seen are US sponsored and trained para-military groups conducting terrorism operations against innocent civilians and legitimately, democratically elected governments, under the full discretion and understanding of the President of the United States of America. Sure it's not religion but it's geopolitical beliefs. Be careful how you characterize state sponsored terrorism.

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Are we morally superior to our enemies? I think we are not perfect, but I think that we are superior in our beliefs and our sense of inherent rights to religious and social freedoms. So from that stand-point, I think that when it comes to employing torture tactics, we're still on the moral high-ground when all is said and done. I don't know about you, but I want to win this war on Terror, as bad as the Terrorists want to wipe us off the face of the earth. It's a war of anihilation, this one...the Terrorsist are not willing to comprimise.

Oh ok ... so fuck the whole concept of principles ... we're a little bit better than our enemies so we occupy the moral high ground and therefore we are moral??? Furthermore, if we're so respectful of social freedoms, and the principles of democracy and the majority in Iraq want us to leave ... WHY ARE WE STILL THERE??? Oh, you mean we know what's best for them?? We're the intellectual elite that can speak for the masses??? Jesus fucking christ you're a goddamned democrat! The older conservatives know exactly what I'm talking about. Are you really a conservative??? Do you know what a conservative is, or would you care to accurately recharacterize yourself as a republican? (Hint: A conservative != a republican and has NEVER been a Republican circa 1999)

Yeesh! Down boy! Down! occrider heel! Down! *whip* *whip*

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Originally posted by donnybrasco I don't see any religious extremists from this country flying planes in to buildings full of innocent people in Baghdad...

So, how many Iraqies flew planes into buildings on 9/11?

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Are we morally superior to our enemies? I think we are not perfect, but I think that we are superior in our beliefs and our sense of inherent rights to religious and social freedoms. So from that stand-point, I think that when it comes to employing torture tactics, we're still on the moral high-ground when all is said and done. I don't know about you, but I want to win this war on Terror, as bad as the Terrorists want to wipe us off the face of the earth. It's a war of anihilation, this one...the Terrorsist are not willing to comprimise.

Tell me does your mind work like this?







Becouse that is the only way i can figure out how one would support torture and still be convinced that he has the moral high ground. I mean fuck, there are some things you just dont do, especialy if you consider yourself to be a civilised nation, and torture cant be considered just a few points off when coparing yourself to anyone. Its more like game over, you have lost all your points, please try to do better nest time.

And if you keep this shit up, you may find that it isnt just the terrorist anymore that want you off the face of the earth. Torturing people does not get you any friends.


EDIT: I just thought of something

A while ago there was a story here that was preety big, it was about 3 highschoolers. Now these three were probably what every parent would want thir child to be. They were good sportsmen, top in every class, popular, hard working and their parents were wery well off too(i dont know many people that got a 40k � car for their 18th birthday). Like i said, everybody thought they were perfect.
That is until one day they were stopped by a random traffic check and an officer found a dead cat in their trunk which was apparently tortured to death. Doesnt seem like much? Well as it were, it was found out that these boys have been at it for quite some time, torturing nearly 50 cats and numerous other animals to death.

Are they bad people? I mean on every other point, these boys were as close to perfect as one has come, they only have one slight problem. They like torturing animals to death. Are they still better than me becouse i dont do sports anymore, becouse im not that good of a student or becouse im not as well off as they are, or does their little hobby move them from high society to scum of society?

yikes, can't beleive somebody is actually in here trying to justify torture. Being rich or smart or popular doesn't justify torture, neither do extra freedoms. I wonder how this stuff that our gov't does affects how we are treated when we travel to other countries, I don't think I can pass myself off as canadian unfortunately, my speaking sounds too obvious.

Who would you have us vote for, how can we get them to win when such a huge chunk of the population is in hysteria and willing to do anything to fight off the terror. I hope McCain runs in 2008 against Hillary and kicks her ass, that would be sweet. I just hate that such a huge population of the civilized world has such hostile feelings towards us, I really like most of you kids who live abroad.

I think curruption in business is the root cause of most of todays problems in the USA, corporations have more of an influence in the gov't these days than the voters do, the real democracy happens in your wallet, which businesses one chooses to support. We need to stop giving power to greedy bastards hell bent on exploiting all that they can exploit in order to have their way. If only more honest and benevolent people could get rich, that would balance things out, the current system is desinged to protect existing rich people at the expense of allowing new people to elevate themselves to that status. We need strategic boytcotts, alternatives to the dinosaur indutrial lords who buy laws from the representatives, and we need representatives who cannot be bought. Business interests have really taken over everything in this country, everything and everyone seems to be negotiable, I feel like alot of people these days are selling their souls, tossing their values aside in order to get more money, it is really sad.

I am not trying to place all the blame on the US, I realize there is also a whole load of ppl who wish nothing more to destroy us and not because of our recent selling out of ourselves but because of stuff in history that we cannot go back and fix. I dont think we should be torturing them because of that though, we should definately defend ourselves. But there is no opposing army to fight, these people are decentralized, bound together only by ideology, their attacks are not battles but rather one-off bombings, more like statements and less like wars. A war will only make their statements bolder and more frequent. Hopefully the Iraq gov't will stabalize, then maybe the people can rid themselves of violent Islam, but this torture stuff is only going to make that less likely to happen.

LOL...man, I love controversy.

OK, where to start?

Look, I'm only telling the truth as I believe it to be in terms of what really goes on in all wars on both sides. When you're down there in the middle of the fighting, up close and personal, you're not going to be an arm-chair warrior, like many of you are here, talking in "theory" about torture and how awful it is...no, you're going to be concerned with getting you and your friends out of their alive! And if it means employing torture to get intel, then you're going to do it! Do you really think you or any soldier out there is willing to die for a social barrier? This happens in all wars. WW2 would be a perfect example. And would anyone argue that in the end, the U.S. and it's Allies were NOT on the higher moral ground? At least when it's over, you get to live your life as you see fit in this country with some sense of freedom and a legal system that backs it up...life under Hitler or Mussolni wouldn't have been nearly the same....so I say; We're on the higher moral ground for that reason. We're not repressing women, or forcing one religion on anyone, or blowing up ancient ruins because they offend Ala, etc...

As far as Iraq goes, the Terrorists are blowing up civilians over there every day. I'd say the war on Terrorism is quite obvious at this point, so there's your link as far as that area goes. Are we better than the Iraqi's and know what's right for them? I doubt it. But Saddam had to go for a lot of reasons, and I feel no pitty there, nor does most of the world. In the long run, I still believe Iraq will be better off without him in power, no matter how trying times currently are.



And BTW Moongoose; The cats are obviously completely innocent...where-as the prisoners we're talking about most likely are not...so these boys were totally wrong...apples and oranges.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco LOL...man, I love controversy. OK, where to start? Look, I'm only telling the truth as I believe it to be in terms of what really goes on in all wars on both sides.

So, basically you're saying that you support state terrorism so long as it's aimed at those who our current administration deems a threat, despite the fact that they haven't even been proven guilty in a court of law. Is that correct?

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Asymmetric warfare and terrorism Asymmetric warfare is not synonymous with terrorism. Rather, terrorism is sometimes used as a tactic by the weaker side in an asymmetric conflict. Terrorism is sometimes called asymmetric warfare by advocates for partisans using terrorist methods to avoid the pejorative connotations of the word; likewise, occupying powers often label partisans "terrorists" as part of propaganda campaigns to maintain support in the occupying power's home country, and to win over the occupied people so as to cut off the partisans' principal support base. This is the root of the phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymme...e_and_terrorism

Maybe you're right, though. Maybe we all should just give in and support our government's illegal and immoral ways. After all, it's worked for us up until this point. Really though, as most people don't even realize that's exactly how we kept South America from falling under the influence of those damn Commie bastards back in the 1970's!

I also forgot to mention that whether you realize it or not (presumably not), our actions often come back to haunt us.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco LOL@people who think wars are EVER fought fairly or "nicely". The Terrorists are in it to win...and in case you haven't noticed, they'll do ANYTHING to get there. I don't think a little simple questioning would or will EVER get a Terrorist to talk.........but I'll bet some good old fashioned torturing would do the trick...it's worked throughout history.

plus unoooooo.

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Originally posted by Lepanto plus unoooooo.

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Great minds think alike. Fools seldom differ.

I'm thinking the latter at this point.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X I'm thinking the latter at this point.

plus unoooooo.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X [color=#33ccff]So, basically you're saying that you support state terrorism...

I said some OTHERS may see it as Terrorism, I personally don't. Do you think the Terrorists call what they're doing "Terrorism"? They're calling it "The will of Ala", so I suppose it's all relative.

Our government tried the higher-than-thou road when Clinton was President. He banned the CIA from using known killers, terrorists and criminals as informants, all on the principal that it cheapens us. Well, by all accounts, that is a BIG part of what lead to us being so blind about 9-11!

You can't play the game like a pussy and expect to win is all I'm saying. There is no "higher road" in war...it's ugly, nasty business...and you're playing to win!

You play everygame to win, and in every game there are rules to follow, even in war.

^^^If your life was at stake because you couldn't get a prisoner (whom you knew had the information to save you) wouldn't talk, and contemporary interrogation methods weren't working, I wonder how long it would take you before you were trying something a little more stringent? Remember; Your LIFE is at stake...it's you or him.

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