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RCMP launch a criminal investigation against Liberals (Yet another scandal)

So yet another scandal involving the Liberals. Of course innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence mounting by some very credible sources is not looking promising for the Liberals.

Apparently they tipped off some well connected friends in advance of an announcement on income trusts resulting in profits being made from insider trading.

And people still want to vote Liberal? Why????

What you dont understand that in case Conservatives win,we're all going back ot "ice age" . its not about their agenda or something ,its about how they deal with problems,and i'm pretty much sure that you will be the first one to whine about new rules regarding clubs and bars that might come in if conservatives win.

Re: RCMP launch a criminal investigation against Liberals (Yet another scandal)

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 So yet another scandal involving the Liberals. Of course innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence mounting by some very credible sources is not looking promising for the Liberals. Apparently they tipped off some well connected friends in advance of an announcement on income trusts resulting in profits being made from insider trading. And people still want to vote Liberal? Why????

Again, it is important to note that generalization of "Liberals" is only being used by media and other anti-Liberal individuals, I'm sure if you read the actual press releases by RCMP you'll find that the ALLEGATIONS are being made against particular individuals of the Liberal party. If we really wanted to generalize like that, we can say Mulroney was part of the conservatives and they'll never change after him... which is obviously not the case.

Its sad that the Conservatives are only able to critisize the Liberals based on items that are irrelevant to the current election and have no future effect on Canada, but I guess you really can't expect more than that from this party.

Re: RCMP launch a criminal investigation against Liberals (Yet another scandal)

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 the evidence mounting by some very credible sources is not looking promising for the Liberals.

so... the RCMP are conducting an investigation into a possible inside trading info leak , and they are making the evidence collected public knowledge as they get it?

is there anywhere you have found yet that outlines the details of this evidence?

Apparently (according to Liberal inside sources) it should be Martin being investigated...
[there are several links within the article, you may want to click the source link]

quote:

December 30, 2005 The Income Trust Scandal: The Mounties should start by asking Paul Martin some questions Angry in T.O. at 08:14 AM In the case of the Income Trust Scandal, the focus has been on Ralph Goodale and his office. Senior Ottawa Liberals are telling me the focus is misplaced. First, check out these quotes captured from the CTV newscast tonight at M K Braaten: * Don Drummond, VP/Chief Economist: CTV said that Drummond told them he first heard about the announcement via email, 4 hours in advance of announcement. Also, stated that Liberal strategists in Ottawa were the source of email. CTV quoted Drummond as saying "Alot of people seemed to know there was an announcement coming and a few people seemed to know what it was." * Jim Leech, Teachers pension fund - CTV said that Leech received emails at about 2 pm stating that the announcement was guaranteed. CTV Quoted Leech "I got a bunch of emails around 2pm saying for sure Goodale was making an announcement after the close." * Sandy Mcintyre, Sentry Select Capital: CTV reported he sent the following email: "There is a strong rumor out of Ottwa that Goodale is going to pronounce after the close today his trust solution�hope my sources are right!" Mcintyre said his sources were quoting 'well connected Liberals'. Note that the source is ill-defined. Just well-connected Liberals. Not well-connected finance ministry officials. Just well-connected Liberals. Recall that Ralph Goodale's original plan was to announce the decision in January. Suddenly the timeline was moved up. By Ralph Goodale? Mr. Goodale said in September that the government would consult with a variety of industry and stock market players before announcing any policy change. Industry observers immediately began speculating that the government might consider reducing taxes on corporate dividends as a way of levelling the playing field with income trusts. On Tuesday, Nov. 22, Mr. Goodale indicated that he would provide direction on the income trust issue because of the impending collapse of the government, effectively ending the consultation process. That night, department officials began discussing the possibility of taxing income trust, sources have said. The next day, Mr. Goodale's office confirmed that he would be making an announcement and just moments before his scheduled news conference, his parliamentary secretary, Toronto MP John McKay, gave a television interview suggesting the government planned to levy a modest tax on income trusts. Shortly after 5 p.m., Mr. Goodale said there would be no tax on income trusts and that dividend tax credits would be increased starting in 2006. Pat Breton, a spokesman for Mr. Goodale, said yesterday that Finance officials met on the night of Nov. 22 for two or three hours and came up with the plan that became the next day's announcement on income trusts. He also said that the Prime Minister's Office was told after that Nov. 22 meeting � either later that night, or the next day � about the decision. The policy development was �entirely an internal Finance� effort, he added. However the media is reporting today that the focus is starting to shift (via Bourque): Aides to the Prime Minister were told about a taxation change for income trusts "some time immediately before" Mr. Goodale made the announcement after markets had closed on Nov. 23, Pat Breton, a spokesman for Mr. Goodale, said yesterday. While it is not unusual for the PMO to be informed of high-profile policy announcements, this indicates that the list of officials who had advance knowledge of the pending change went beyond the Finance Department and Mr. Goodale's office. Well, I know some well-connected Liberals as well, and they've let me know what really happened. As reported in the Globe and Mail, Paul Martin's aides are insisting that Paul Martin was told "some time immediately before" November 23. It's getting closer to the truth, but still not quite there. It has the date wrong. It also has the direction of the decision-making reversed. The decision to close of the consultations and deliver the good news not to tax income trusts, probably in response to an election campaign that imminent, was made not by Ralph Goodale, who by all accounts is too honest to be making decisions like this based on election calculations, and who intended to stick to his timetable of accepting submissions on tax policy until December 31. It was not an entirely internal effort, as spokesperson Pat Breton insists. The major decisions were being taken outside of the finance department. The decision was made by Paul Martin himself. Paul Martin told Ralph Goodale on Friday, November 18 to bring the consultations to a close and to make an announcement on income tax trusts. Paul Martin and his immediate PMO staff would have known for five days prior to the announcement how the decision was shaping up. Paul Martin and his staff were dictating the pace of the work, and possibly the decision itself. Paul Martin and his immediate PMO staff are as likely suspects as the source for the leak as Ralph Goodale and his office. When Ralph Goodale stresses that Paul Martin knew nothing, you know he's trying a bit too hard to deflect attention from where the attention should be. When I read about John McKay's flub on November 23, I wonder whether the finance department was really in the loop. It helps explain McKay's confusion if the PMO was more deeply involved in the decision making. Where you see Paul Martin standing by Ralph Goodale, I see Paul Marting standing behind Ralph Goodale, keeping him up front and centre not out of a commitment to his minister and a firm belief in his basic honesty and his innocence, but in order to have a shield to hide behind. Paul Martin made the call on Friday, November 18, not Ralph Goodale on November 22...that's the way it happened, or so well-connected Liberals are telling me.

>>Source<<

this isn't new...and didn't the RCMP already exonerate Goodale and are now investigating others?

Funny that the other parties were/are calling for him to step down, simply because there is an investigation...innocent until proven guilty, indeed

we don't allow circumstantial evidence in court...but it seems to be sufficient for the other parties to call for people's resignations...lame. Investigate the shit out of this, THEN let the appropriate heads roll.

This so called source happens to be a blogger running his mouth off of hear say.... Not to mention this site is an anti-Liberal site.

quote:

that's the way it happened, or so well-connected Liberals are telling me.

Perhaps when someone is confident enough in their allegation to name names, we'll take their statements with some merit.

what a dumb comment from Harper too (from today's Toronto Star):

quote:

Any explanation is possible, but quite frankly this government, with its record of scandal, corruption, its attitude of entitlement, its failure to accept accountability, ... has not earned the right to the benefit of the doubt," Harper said.

sorry dumbass, but that right is not "earned"...it's a *RIGHT*.

yes, I know he's more making a point than explicitly meaning what he's saying, but perhaps he should more carefully choose his words and focus on the facts before opening his mouth.

If someone is implicated, they should be fired (and prosecuted, if warranted). Until then, Harper should STFU and let the RCMP do their job.

quote:

Originally posted by Scot @ SJIRadio This so called source happens to be a blogger running his mouth off of hear say.... Not to mention this site is an anti-Liberal site. Perhaps when someone is confident enough in their allegation to name names, we'll take their statements with some merit.

A blog with some actual merit you mean...


I seriously doubt one becomes a finalist by 'running ones mouth off'; any dolt could do that.

The fact that it's anti-Liberal was besides the point anyways.

Chew on this then from CTV if right-wing websites 'bother' you.
>>CTV News Report<<


The very fact that the RCMP concluded that there was reasonable grounds to even start an investigation should be enough for Goodale to step down at least while the investigation is in progress and concluded.
Anything Goodale does from this point on can be used against him; he's better off just to back away.

Re: Re: RCMP launch a criminal investigation against Liberals (Yet another scandal)

quote:

Originally posted by Scot @ SJIRadio Again, it is important to note that generalization of "Liberals" is only being used by media and other anti-Liberal individuals, I'm sure if you read the actual press releases by RCMP you'll find that the ALLEGATIONS are being made against particular individuals of the Liberal party. If we really wanted to generalize like that, we can say Mulroney was part of the conservatives and they'll never change after him... which is obviously not the case. Its sad that the Conservatives are only able to critisize the Liberals based on items that are irrelevant to the current election and have no future effect on Canada, but I guess you really can't expect more than that from this party.

yes only against the finance dept headed by the finance minister who happens to be second in charge.

How is this irrelevent and how does this have no effect on canada? Do you even realize what you are saying???

If our top financial institution cant be trusted by investors we are in BIG BIG trouble.

its amazing how even after scandal after scandal, people will still defend these guys.

Has no one ever heard the term "where there is smoke there is fire"?

And the conservatives will not make clubs close early. Those are things that provincial and city governments have control over. AND it was the harris conservatives that increased last call from 1am to 2 am.

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Originally posted by Transmotion What you dont understand that in case Conservatives win,we're all going back ot "ice age".

Uh... what?

quote:

its not about their agenda or something ,its about how they deal with problems,and i'm pretty much sure that you will be the first one to whine about new rules regarding clubs and bars that might come in if conservatives win.

Wow, talk about FUD. This isn't in the CPC's agenda anywhere. What in the world are you basing this on?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Uh... what? Wow, talk about FUD. This isn't in the CPC's agenda anywhere. What in the world are you basing this on?

misguided rhetoric.


Listen guys, the liberal party seems to think that they can get away with anything. And right now id say they are pretty much correct in that assertion. We need to hold them accountable for their actions and we can only do this at the ballot box.

Hardly anyone has been punished for all the theft and corruption that has gone on yet we are supposed to believe that these guys have learned their lesson? As this latest scandal shows us, clearly they have not and wont until voters show them the door.

Again, if investors and businesses cant trust the nation's highest financial institution when it comes to fair trade and accountability we are all in BIG BIG trouble.

My family (in Regina) has known Ralph Goodale for decades and he is easily one of the most ethical politicians in Ottawa.

If he says he was not personally involved - I believe him.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker My family (in Regina) has known Ralph Goodale for decades and he is easily one of the most ethical politicians in Ottawa. If he says he was not personally involved - I believe him.

But as the head of the ministry he should still step down until the ministry has been cleared. And if there are allegations of wrongdoing, he should resign even if not directly involved. Being the head of an organization means taking responsibility for everything that happens under your watch.

Im sure he is a good man, which is exactly why he should step down.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r A blog with some actual merit you mean... I seriously doubt one becomes a finalist by 'running ones mouth off'; any dolt could do that. The fact that it's anti-Liberal was besides the point anyways. Chew on this then from CTV if right-wing websites 'bother' you. >>CTV News Report<< The very fact that the RCMP concluded that there was reasonable grounds to even start an investigation should be enough for Goodale to step down at least while the investigation is in progress and concluded. Anything Goodale does from this point on can be used against him; he's better off just to back away.

does it really matter if Liberals go on a killing spree everyone will still think it's ok lol

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Being the head of an organization means taking responsibility for everything that happens under your watch.

It is impossible and unreasonable for Ralph to monitor every single email sent from MoF.

Ralph should show that he is taking responsibility by finding out if it actually happened (and if so who did it, how to prevent it in the future).

Ralph should NOT take responsibility by stepping down.

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Originally posted by MarkT this isn't new...and didn't the RCMP already exonerate Goodale and are now investigating others?

No. Maybe you're thinking of one of the 3 other scandals this year...

quote:

Funny that the other parties were/are calling for him to step down, simply because there is an investigation...innocent until proven guilty, indeed

It's not a question of innocence or guilt, though. It's the same reason Klander was forced to step down - Goodale is in a position of public trust, and when you hold a public trust, it's your responsibility to do what it takes to preserve the public trust, even at a personal loss. If that trust is lost, either within the government or between the voters and the government, it creates instability.

If he did step aside, and the evidence exonerated him, surely the media would be all over it and Paul Martin would not hesitate to reinstate him - right?

Personally, I think Ralph is (more or less) innocent and Paul Martin is to blame for all this. Nevertheless, Goodale has a responsibility here - the longer he stays put, the more it hurts the Liberal campaign. For that reason I'd love to see him stay - but what he's doing is not good for the party or for the country in general.

So why are we discussing (currently) pure speculation?

Lets wait until the OSC is done with this..

quote:

Originally posted by psychosomatica So why are we discussing (currently) pure speculation? Lets wait until the OSC is done with this..

The RCMP doesn't investigate these things on a whim. If they found probable cause to launch a formal investigation, it's a pretty good indication that something is up.

It's not even a question of whether or not there was insider trading - the statistics and trading patterns prove that almost beyond a shadow of a doubt (massive spikes in income trust traffic all over the map just before the announcement that flatlined back to zero after the announcement). The only question is who is responsible.

quote:

Originally posted by psychosomatica So why are we discussing (currently) pure speculation? Lets wait until the OSC is done with this..

I guess you missed the memo...the part where the Bay Street traders are asking for the TSE CEO's head too after making a cool $100,000 in that one day before the announcement...

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 But as the head of the ministry he should still step down until the ministry has been cleared. And if there are allegations of wrongdoing, he should resign even if not directly involved. Being the head of an organization means taking responsibility for everything that happens under your watch. Im sure he is a good man, which is exactly why he should step down.

Kinda hard to blame Goodale for everything that goes on his ministry. Remember, he doesn't appoint a lot of guys working there; many have been there for a looooong time.

Yes, he should be ultimately responsible for what goes on. But he's one man in a complex bureaucracy. Bigger the organization is, less the top guy knows about what's going on.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut The RCMP doesn't investigate these things on a whim. If they found probable cause to launch a formal investigation, it's a pretty good indication that something is up. It's not even a question of whether or not there was insider trading - the statistics and trading patterns prove that almost beyond a shadow of a doubt (massive spikes in income trust traffic all over the map just before the announcement that flatlined back to zero after the announcement). The only question is who is responsible.

you are essentially advocating for guilty until proven innocent, given previous alleged wrongdoing?!? that is sketchier than anything I've seen on the dancefloor at Guv

if they found cause to investigate, it means something is up? That's ridiculous!

It could be a *major* scandal in the Liberal party that results in a Conservative win...but it could be mere mudslinging.

Like I said...conduct a full investigation. It is so unproductive to discuss right now, from our standpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT you are essentially advocating for guilty until proven innocent, given previous alleged wrongdoing?!? that is sketchier than anything I've seen on the dancefloor at Guv if they found cause to investigate, it means something is up? That's ridiculous! It could be a *major* scandal in the Liberal party that results in a Conservative win...but it could be mere mudslinging. Like I said...conduct a full investigation. It is so unproductive to discuss right now, from our standpoint.

take a chill pill

I didn't start the thread...I'm quite relaxed about the whole thing...just quite dismayed that people are calling for a resignation when nothing has been proven.

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