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Harmonic Mixing Question --help--

I posted a thread not to long ago asking for advice about how to mix better live! My beat matching and phrase matching ability were questioned along with harmonic mixing. The beats and phrases were mixed fine , but it wasnt until i read up on harmonic mixing that i knew what my problem was.

I would try to mix 2 records together off key- the conclusion - One shitty transition ! I took Nems advice and read up on it , and decided its somthing definetly worth learning. One of NEMS quotes that stood out to me was :

--Harmonic mixing is the scientific side of picking the right tune for the right moment or part of it at lest. It is one of the things that really determins if you should play a track or not.
If you don't harmonically mix and you pick records that aren't in key you stand a good chance of killing energy in a place.

I know some of you don't beleive me but trust me when I say this, it is one of the major skills that separates the successful DJs from the guys who may play the local club but never get any further. It's all a question of how good you want to be?


After reading the guide to harmonic mixing I have a few questions i need anwsered. First of all I was wondering if any other programs like acid pro or such would work like mix meister. I really would like to label my vinyl for future mixes!

My next question is I was wondering if someone could give me a less scientific version of Harmonic Mixing .. The guide was great , but i do not have a good background when it comes to music.. I usually just find mixes that sound good together ..

Thanks for the time,
NICK

firstly, i strongly suggest you learn how to key tunes yourself. these programs arent as reliable as your ears. its really quite simple. like anything, just a lil bit of practice and you should be fine. all you need is a keyboard; cheap & shitty is fine.

could you elaborate on what you mean re the scientifics? have you gone thru the entire harmonics sticky? that basically contains everything you need to know...

I agree with using just your ears , but what i dont understand is if i get a key board, Yea i could match the key with the sound of the keyboards keys , but how am i going to know if it's A,C, C minor and so on....I did read the hole sticky threas about harmnic mixing , but its sometimes hard to picture it. I somewhat understand the sub-dominant and dominant so i think i could figure out once i fgure out how to key the records. Isnt dominant like mixing a Cm into an F minor , or am i all mixed up ?????????????

hey im going to figure this out... its my new goal for the new year

So does A minor start on one side of the key board and makes its way up to A#?? I know this might sound like a dumbass ?, but i'm really trying to get a little knoledge of it before i go into the music shop and make an ass of myself asking these questions. When reading the harmonic mixing guide i couldnt get the example pics to come up could that be a prob! I did search for keys but all it did was confuse me more.. I need DJ terms i guess.. If possible!!

Thanks
Nick

Dont worry your not alone...all what I read in the sticky went right over my head!. I just cant for the life of me understand how I go about keying my tracks.

Also isnt writing the key of a track on a vinyls cover pointless if the key is affected by pitch?

If you look at a keyboard there are two sets of black keys that repeat up and down the length of the instrument. They are in either groups of two or three. Find any group of two black keys and the white key to the immediate left of them is C. Then the white keys just follow the alphabet. C D E F G A B, then they repeat again.

Give this link a try, I know it's a little basic but it will tell you where the notes are on the keyboard. And if you carry on with continue the lesson it evolves a little.

As I said, it starts pretty basic but keep going.

http://cs.hiram.edu/~pliskowb/cpsc222/tutorial_01a.html

Basically when you are listening to the intro of a track you will find one key in particular that will fit more than the others... this is most likely the root of the key. After that you start applying chords but that's the next step.

Cheers
Nem

say you hit the 1st black key on the keyboard between C & D would it be considered Cm or D# or D minor C#..My guess is it would be the second one .. Hey Nem , thanks a lot i've been looking for a basic link like this for hours... Basic was just what i needed..The only links i have found were a bunch of complex piano junk that didnt apply to what i was lookin for..

-Nick-

quote:

Originally posted by Nbrablec9 say you hit the 1st black key on the keyboard between C & D would it be considered Cm or D# or D minor C#..My guess is it would be the second one .. Hey Nem , thanks a lot i've been looking for a basic link like this for hours... Basic was just what i needed..The only links i have found were a bunch of complex piano junk that didnt apply to what i was lookin for.. -Nick-

Between C & D becomes either C# (C Sharp) or Db (D flat) although they are both the same note on the keyboard, I say choose one and stick with it but just be prepared that someone else may call the same thing something different. It's not really that important for harmonic mixing. It's something you may choose to get into if you start producing and even then it's questionable how useful it would be. It basically depends on the scale that you are using. But as I said, it's not worth confusing yourself with now.

The Major and the Minor is a different thing all together as it relates to the chord and not any single note.

Cheers
Nem

Im at work right now so i dont have a keyboard to get the vinyl keyed up, but to find the key for the record, should i just hit the keyboard key one at a time until i find the one the goes best with the flow! If possible when i do it could you test it out the same record to see if i have the hole idea down.. If your not cool with that it's ok , but I'm hoping we might have a couple of the same vinyl!

another ?- So is the first half the key board minor or somthin -- then the other half major-- or do I just make no sense with this one ?

Thanks,
Nick

quote:

Originally posted by Nbrablec9 another ?- So is the first half the key board minor or somthin -- then the other half major-- or do I just make no sense with this one ? Thanks, Nick

hehe, no. major & minor refer to keys (or chords?) ie a combination of 3 notes together (i think, hehe). theres a link in the sticky (and possibly the link nem posted here) that gives you all the keys and which notes to press for each. ie if you press a & c & e you get an 8A (i think thats an A minor), and if you move your finger from the C to the little black note (c#), you get an 11B (a major i think?).

it might seem daunting at first but its all pretty simple. forget all that dominant and sub dominant rubbish. that just complicates things for those of us without any music training.

edit: changed keys coz im retarded

hey it was a good guess.. anyway can soome one explain to me in easy to learn terms how to know which 2 keys make it minor or major.. The harmonic mixing thread is great, but for someone like me its a bit confusing ..

Thanks

Going to bed now, but will get on the case for you tomorrow.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Going to bed now, but will get on the case for you tomorrow. Cheers Nem

thats fair. you have been DJing longer than most TAs have been alive [checks other thread]. you must be pretty old, sorry i mean tired

quote:

Originally posted by Nbrablec9 hey it was a good guess.. anyway can soome one explain to me in easy to learn terms how to know which 2 keys make it minor or major.. The harmonic mixing thread is great, but for someone like me its a bit confusing .. Thanks

sorry, i cant help you. i dont know what the rules are, i have all the keys + notes you must press written down at home. i tried google for ya but couldnt find the original site. im sure theres a link in the sticky, if you can be bothered. but all (most??) notes are part of both major & minor chords.

just go and find an article or a flash playing keyboard that tells you what the keys are and which notes make up each key. after a while youll pick up the patterns that make each key. hint: there are 12 minor & 12 major keys in dance music (apparently).

you could go HERE for starters so you can learn the names of the chords, and then go look them up to see how they are made up.

but you could also just wait for nem, im sure he has all the answers

age has finally caught up on the harmonic guru

Check out this treadhttp://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=298275
It is long winded but may help you understand chords, and what major and minor are.

There are a heap of tutorials on this site covering many topics, go through them and pick out what is relevant to you...

try this site:

LINK

its a bit more complicated than the one i learnt from, but it should do.

note: leave the chords part selected. dont touch the scale! i got thoroughly lost and just choose between minor & major, dont touch the other ones youll just get confused as i have just now

eventually youll be able to play along with your songs & even work out harmonies by ear. just practice and youll pick it up. infinitely easier than beatmatching imo!

I didnt realy read the whole thread (lazy me)
Try www.pianonanny.com
its very helpfull with piano unless your already a pro.

Thanks for the advice , I'll check it out and see what i can make of it .. I might have a few more questions tommorow , as i will be in bed soon, i have to be at work at 8:00 am

How accurate is MixShare? I've used it to key tunes and I have no idea if that program is accurately keying my tunes. Considering I don't own a keyboard right now I am lost, but I am still learning to properly beatmatch right now anyways (I haven't been as serious about it as I am starting to be now). When you do key your tunes how do you key tunes with a synth note as the first note that is hard (to me at least) to make out what note it is without having a synth on hand? Like something that sounds really electronic, not more natural sounding like a piano? or can you use the first note in the breakdown of a track as a way to key your tune?

i, for instance, clearly understood the whole harmonic mixing trick, but i dont feel like digging thru hundreds of my tracks again just to figure out their keys. i prefer the hear-it-yourself method. i feel more comfortable just launching the cued track intro (first 32-64 beat) into the playing track in my headphones and see if it sounds good or not. i think if a little practice will do the job...

OK, i just tried explaining music theory in two paragraphs a second ago. and it didn't work. it's ridiculously hard to try to teach someone basic theory without a keyboard in front of you and the student.

....

A KEY is a tonal system consisting of seven notes in a fixed relationship with each other. it is THE BASIS of music theory and is the MOST IMPORTANT part learning to create music, as well as mixing harmonically.

A SCALE is a collection of notes of increasing or decreasing pitch.. determined by a set interval.

An INTERVAL is the difference in pitch between two notes... I.E. there is ONE semitone between C and D (C#).

A SEMITONE is the smallest interval on a keyboard. for example, the white key and the black key directly next to it.

MINOR is a type of SCALE. instead of going into the details, let's just say that MINOR SCALES sound sad, dreary, and tragic.

listen to the harmonic minor scale here

MAJOR is a type of SCALE. instead of going into the details, let's just say that MAJOR SCALES sound happy, uplifting, and pleasing to the ear.

listen to a major scale here


Honestly, MAJOR and MINOR really make very little difference in harmonic mixing. A lot of the times, you can mix a minor track into a major one and vice versa with some interesting results.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF HARMONIC MIXING IS KNOWING WHAT KEY YOUR TUNES ARE IN.


.........


The easiest way to harmonically mix is to find two tracks that have the same KEY at the same BPM. use the list in the forums or figure it out yourself. then mix the two tracks together. Since they both have the same key, their melodies and basslines share the same notes as each other. Because of the similarities between the two, the two tracks almost sound like they were meant for each other.

For example, let's say Three Drives - Greece 2000 is in the key of C at 130BPM. Let's also say that Kamaya Painters - Far From Over is in the key of C at 130BPM. according to the above formula, the tracks will PROBABLY sound good together, because they are both in the key of C.

Now, let's say Greece 2000 is in the key of C at 130BPM. and let's say Narcotik - Blue is in the key of Gb at 130BPM. these two songs PROBABLY wouldn't sound good together, because they aren't in the same key (C & Gb).

there's way more to harmonic mixing than just mixing two tracks of the same key, but i don't want your head to 'splode.


...


How do you find the key of a track?? the simple answer is, use your ear, and sooner or later it'll come to you. that's not what you wanted to hear though.

Bust out your keyboard or guitar (make sure it's in standard tuning) and play your favorite track at 0% pitch. once you hear the bassline, listen for the LOWEST SOUNDING recurring note. A lot of the time, the lowest pitched recurring note of a bassline is the root of the key.

Also, USUALLY the FIRST NOTE of the bassline is the ROOT NOTE of the key. Therefore, if the first note of a certain bassline is C.. most likely, the key of the tune is C. so play your piano keys until you hear the same note from the piano as you do from the bassline.

of course, this is not always the case.

for example. play chicane - halcyon at 0% pitch. listen for the bass to come in. you can hear the recurring note occur over and over and over.. so start pressing keys on your piano and listening to hear if the note you're playing on the piano, is the same as the note that the bass is playing in the tune. C#? noooo... to high-pitched. C? still... doesn't sound right. B? nope... A? yeah... that's the same note.

listen to halcyon with a keyboard, finding the key

How about Schiller - Das Glockenspiel (humate remix?) listen for the bassline. listen for that recurring note. start playing random keys and you'll find it. C? no, too high. B? nope.. A? no... even lower. E? yup. it fits with the song.

listen to humate with a keyboard, finding the key

and there you have it. the key for the tune. write it down, lather, rinse and repeat. this is the best i can explain it without talking to you in person. i hope you found the samples helpful. your turn, nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nbrablec9 another ?- So is the first half the key board minor or somthin -- then the other half major-- or do I just make no sense with this one ? Thanks, Nick

nope..

the keyboard has EVERY single note on it. MAJOR and MINOR are types of scales, which is defined by my previous post above.

For example, C MAJOR scale is all of the white keys from C to C.

C D E F G A B C.

D MAJOR is D E Gb G A B C# D

you know what.. you should just forget about major and minor scales if you're just DJing. realize that major sounds happy, minor sounds sad, and the fact that you'll utilize scales the most if you're producing.


...


In my opinion, the best way to key your tracks is to write down the key for all of your songs in one specific BPM, ie key all of your tracks to say, 130BPM. not at 0%. write down what key they're in at that certain pitch, and you'll know which tracks go well together when mixed at the same BPM instead of fucking around with trying to transpose them.

for example, let's say..

Greece 2000 @ 130 BPM = C
In Silence @ 130 BPM = C
Cosmic String @ 130 BPM = D#
Aftermath @ 130 BPM = C
95th Street @ 130 BPM = Ab
Messy Textures @ 130 BPM = Fb
Dangerous Music @ 130 BPM = Fb

so with this list, you can reasonably deduct that Greece 2000, In Silence, and Aftermath will all sound good with each other if mixed at the same time (C). You can also reasonably assume that Messy Textures and Dangerous music will sound with each other (Fb). Finally, you can assume that Cosmic String (D#) probably won't sound good with any of these tunes, as well as 95th Street (Ab).

no matter how fast or slow you play the vinyl, these tracks will still sound good with each other. as you slow down the platter to match the two tracks together, they both transpose... yielding the same harmonic equivalent, just a different note name. and who really needs to memorize note names, if you just know that the tracks will sound good with each other?


otherwise, if you key the tunes at their original BPM...

Greece 2000 @ 0% (134BPM) = C#
In Silence @ 0% (140BPM) = Fb
Another Way @ 0% (127BPM) = B

well what key is "another way" at 134 BPM? well, lemme bust out the calculator, the pencil and paper, let me write down the quadratic equation of pi, bring down the 1.... subtract 7 from 18... and... it's too much bullshit, imo.

I have a real quick question about harmonic mixing. i know if u speed a record up 5.612...% it goes up a key. So if i had 2 records both in C and 100BPM, however one was pitched to 105BPM and the other was 106BPM, they would be in different keys right? I know they wouldnt be beatmatched just using a bad example. Sorry if confusing.

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