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Poll - What is a Liberal?

Since some people like to call everyone that doesn't agree with them "Liberals" then I'd like to see them define the word. I'll start.

Being progressive. Finding new ways to tackle issues & problems for improving society.

Poll? Yet there is no poll...I wanna vote god dammit!

Being progressive does not make someone a liberal but having some stupid ideas is definatly a factor in being a liberal seeing as how they DO NOT think realistically but rather wonder off to some utopian version of this world.

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Originally posted by Lepanto Being progressive does not make someone a liberal but having some stupid ideas is definatly a factor in being a liberal seeing as how they DO NOT think realistically but rather wonder off to some utopian version of this world.

But hasn't Bush & alot of Conservatives done alot of stupid things, or had alot of stupid ideas also. So that stupidity can be a trait of both sides, especially in their extreme forms. That is why democracy is so important, so that when the country goes too far in one direction the people can reverse it, and is likely the reason the U.S. has been so successful as a country.

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Originally posted by Kapedan Poll? Yet there is no poll...I wanna vote god dammit!

Weirdest. Poll. Ever.
You mean I get to make my own poll?
How are these results going to work I wonder...

from a southern republican, here is my definition of a liberal.
a direct opposite of the conservative.
mind u, in addition to my right-wing bias, i have been studying the french revolution,
and that pushes me to the farrrrr right.
can u see me ??
hi.

A liberal is someone who lives by the following rule: "Any man should be free to do exactly as he pleases as long as he does not prevent others from doing the same".

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Originally posted by trancaholic A liberal is someone who lives by the following rule: "Any man should be free to do exactly as he pleases as long as he does not prevent others from doing the same".

I'd say that is more libertarian than liberal, at least in the current American political system's definition of liberal.

I think that liberal is big government (welfare state-esque), politically correct to a fault, Robin Hood's disciples (steal from the rich, give to the poor) and "free thinkers" (abortion, minority rights, drugs, etc.).

That's just my two cents.

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Originally posted by Lepanto Being progressive does not make someone a liberal but having some stupid ideas is definatly a factor in being a liberal seeing as how they DO NOT think realistically but rather wonder off to some utopian version of this world.

You mean by spreading the American version of "Democracy" throughout the Middle East by invading countries there one by one, all under the guise of fighting a "war on terrorism" and trying to connect each country invaded to the bastards that actually attacked us while likely manipulating intelligence on their supposed WMD stockpiles, not to mention deliberately bankrupting our own government and thrift spending to buy all of your parties' toys that you've ever so desired, and effectively creating the biggest government ever recorded?

And speaking of big governments, what kind of "liberal" presidents have created the bigger governments over the last 25 years, all as a means of "protecting" us little children and "knowing what's best" in terms of spending our tax dollars - the Bill Clinton types, or the Ronald Reagan/George Bush Sr./George Bush Jr. types?

(hint, it's not the former).

Yeah, I guess liberals like these are really the utopian type after all.

Liberals are those that ascribe to the ideology of liberalism. Liberals seek states enshrining freedom of thought, individual liberty, a minimal role for the state, limitations on the power of religious institutions, predomonance of the rule of law, market enconomies, private property rights, and democratic government.

Unfortunately, most people today focus only on the individual liberty aspect of this and thus paties of the left have been described as liberal when they are actually classical conservative or socialist. Liberalism is a rightward leaning ideology. The US Republican Party is actually a liberal party.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Yeah, I guess liberals like these are really the utopian type after all.

crearly you're the perfect candidate for president with your superb skills of hindsight and knowing the ins and outs of government and economy and being able to suggest relative options for the real world.


At Shamen, i've previously said that neither the "conservatives" nor the "liberals" are the best for governing this or any other nation.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Liberals are those that ascribe to the ideology of liberalism. Liberals seek states enshrining freedom of thought, individual liberty, a minimal role for the state, limitations on the power of religious institutions, predomonance of the rule of law, market enconomies, private property rights, and democratic government. Unfortunately, most people today focus only on the individual liberty aspect of this and thus paties of the left have been described as liberal when they are actually classical conservative or socialist. Liberalism is a rightward leaning ideology. The US Republican Party is actually a liberal party.

Quite right, the US misuse of "liberal" must be resisted.

Anyways, I'm curious why you say that liberals are "to the right". How do you define "being more to the right"? I'd have claimed that the traditionally overused left-right dichotomy makes no sense once one applies such a high resolution worldview that one is capable of distinguishing ideologies such as liberalism and socialism.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 And speaking of big governments, what kind of "liberal" presidents have created the bigger governments over the last 25 years, all as a means of "protecting" us little children and "knowing what's best" in terms of spending our tax dollars - the Bill Clinton types, or the Ronald Reagan/George Bush Sr./George Bush Jr. types? (hint, it's not the former). Yeah, I guess liberals like these are really the utopian type after all.

You may consider it a question of semantics, but I think we're confusing the way Republicans and Democrats have run the country over the last 20-30 years and the way conservatives and liberals believe it should be run. Conservatives, as a whole, and perhaps as part of their identity, favor a smaller, less obtrusive government, whereas liberals generally lean to a more socialist view of a government's interaction with the people. How well Republicans and Democrats have stuck to their respective ideologies in the past years is another matter. I would have no problem saying that in today's modern political environment the difference between Republicans and Democrats is mere rhetoric. We have a one party system. This means that neither party is strictly devoted to its "core" beliefs anymore, at least in practice.

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Originally posted by Lepanto crearly you're the perfect candidate for president with your superb skills of hindsight and knowing the ins and outs of government and economy and being able to suggest relative options for the real world.

That was actually a rebuttal?

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At Shamen, i've previously said that neither the "conservatives" nor the "liberals" are the best for governing this or any other nation.

Well someone has to do it. Clearly each party has their negatives along with their positives. The question to be asked is especially in regards to modern times, which one is doing a better job, and more specifically to the question that has come up here a few times - which one runs a smaller government?

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Originally posted by NeoPhono You may consider it a question of semantics, but I think we're confusing the way Republicans and Democrats have run the country over the last 20-30 years and the way conservatives and liberals believe it should be run. Conservatives, as a whole, and perhaps as part of their identity, favor a smaller, less obtrusive government, whereas liberals generally lean to a more socialist view of a government's interaction with the people. How well Republicans and Democrats have stuck to their respective ideologies in the past years is another matter. I would have no problem saying that in today's modern political environment the difference between Republicans and Democrats is mere rhetoric. We have a one party system. This means that neither party is strictly devoted to its "core" beliefs anymore, at least in practice.

I'd definitely agree with that, however I'd also state that it it's not merely the parties that change in philosophical viewpoints through time - both ideologies have undergone some restructering and tinkering of their own over as time moves on as well. Maybe not as much as the parties themselves, but both ideologies have evolved in certain ways, for better or for worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Liberals are those that ascribe to the ideology of liberalism. Liberals seek states enshrining freedom of thought, individual liberty, a minimal role for the state, limitations on the power of religious institutions, predomonance of the rule of law, market enconomies, private property rights, and democratic government. Unfortunately, most people today focus only on the individual liberty aspect of this and thus paties of the left have been described as liberal when they are actually classical conservative or socialist. Liberalism is a rightward leaning ideology. The US Republican Party is actually a liberal party.

*claps hands* exactly! good to see there are people on here that know america didnt create liberal nor conservative. and that the two arent nearly as opposite as people tend to believe.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 That was actually a rebuttal?

clearly wit is not your strong suit.


second of all republican, democratc, liberal all go way back however this thread is about what it means today and not what right/left meant during the post-French revolution days in France or elsewhere in Europe.

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Originally posted by Lepanto second of all republican, democratc, liberal all go way back however this thread is about what it means today and not what right/left meant during the post-French revolution days in France or elsewhere in Europe.

yeah, what you mean is what they mean in the US today. you dont have a monopoly on those terms you know. and if you dont have a monopoly on the terms, im gonna stick with their traditional definitions coz theyre still more than accurate.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, what you mean is what they mean in the US today. you dont have a monopoly on those terms you know. and if you dont have a monopoly on the terms, im gonna stick with their traditional definitions coz theyre still more than accurate.

how are they accurate if the majority of the people you'll talk to live and hear and learn those words in a modern context...?

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Originally posted by Lepanto how are they accurate if the majority of the people you'll talk to live and hear and learn those words in a modern context...?

so what youre saying is i should alter my understanding of the terms coz some morons confuse liberalism with the australian federal government, or conservativism with the republican party. riiiight. a misunderstanding of the definitions of words does not change that definition. it merely confuses it. and when you say \"the majority\" you mean the americans which have tried to hi-jack the terms in their boring polar clashes *yawn*

both ideologies are static and merely applied to modern times; those modern times being virtually identical in most aspects asides from technological advances. you know, the right to own property, to exploit that property, to vote, to work, a dedication to small govt etc etc. there is no \"modern context\" that you speak of. it remains the same.

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Originally posted by Lepanto clearly wit is not your strong suit.

Hmmm, okay, that was a rebuttal, right?

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second of all republican, democratc, liberal all go way back however this thread is about what it means today and not what right/left meant during the post-French revolution days in France or elsewhere in Europe.

Where did that come from?

Regardless, I more or less agreed with the sentiment of evolving ideological philosophies when I stated this to Neophono:

quote:

quote: Originally posted by NeoPhono You may consider it a question of semantics, but I think we're confusing the way Republicans and Democrats have run the country over the last 20-30 years and the way conservatives and liberals believe it should be run. Conservatives, as a whole, and perhaps as part of their identity, favor a smaller, less obtrusive government, whereas liberals generally lean to a more socialist view of a government's interaction with the people. How well Republicans and Democrats have stuck to their respective ideologies in the past years is another matter. I would have no problem saying that in today's modern political environment the difference between Republicans and Democrats is mere rhetoric. We have a one party system. This means that neither party is strictly devoted to its "core" beliefs anymore, at least in practice. I'd definitely agree with that, however I'd also state that it it's not merely the parties that change in philosophical viewpoints through time - both ideologies have undergone some restructering and tinkering of their own over as time moves on as well. Maybe not as much as the parties themselves, but both ideologies have evolved in certain ways, for better or for worse.

Is reading, or perhaps comprehension one of your particular strengths?

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 both ideologies have undergone some restructering and tinkering of their own over as time moves on as well. Maybe not as much as the parties themselves, but both ideologies have evolved in certain ways, for better or for worse.

true, but i hardly see \"tinkering\" or \"restructuring\" as anything more than minor changes in bodies of thought hundreds of years old. to me, their basic tenets are the same whether youre reading locke or rawls?

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Originally posted by trancaholic Quite right, the US misuse of "liberal" must be resisted. Anyways, I'm curious why you say that liberals are "to the right". How do you define "being more to the right"? I'd have claimed that the traditionally overused left-right dichotomy makes no sense once one applies such a high resolution worldview that one is capable of distinguishing ideologies such as liberalism and socialism.

When evaluating where on the political spectrum lies one must look at the prevailing political culture of the state and use that as your centre. The US was founded by liberals (if "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" isn't the most blatent rip off of John Locke's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of property" then I don't know what is), however, it has shifted from that pure liberalism to a quasi mix of liberalism and conservatism. Subsequently, the centre of the spectrum in the US lies between the two and liberal becomes right of centre while conservative is left of centre (the opposite of what those unaware of ideology would have one believe). Canada was founded by conservatives (the "peace, order, and good government" preable to our constitution is a pretty clear rip from Hobbes). Over time the domonate political culture has shifted from conservatism toward socialism with the vast majority of Canadians identifying with a mix of the two. As a result Conservatism is a slightly right wing ideology here and liberalism is further down the right. The spectrum changes depending on what state you are looking at, what's on the right in one state may be the left in another.

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Originally posted by Lepanto how are they accurate if the majority of the people you'll talk to live and hear and learn those words in a modern context...?

Not the majority of people, the majority of Americans. Besides, if people misuse the terms then it really is up to those of us that understand them to correct the ill-informed. Failure to do so just results in a watering down of the language to fit the lowest common denomonator. Now, the US has allowed this to happen for several hundred years (colour becomes color, light becomes lite, dumb goes from meaning one cannot speak to meaning one is not intellegent) but every other English speaking society has at least tried to prevent this from happening. Please, excuse us if we have a better understanding of the language and incist on employing proper diction rather then pandering to those poor unfortunate Americans that have fallen victim to a couple of hundred years of illiterate ancestors.

Now, getting away from my rant.... we're talking in a political context here. In terms of politics liberal and conservative have somewhat opposite meanings to their meanings as common adjectives. If one is engaged in a discussion about political ideology then it only stands to reason that the terms liberal and conservative would only be employed per their ideological definitions.

liberal is a word that conservative republicans use once someone doesnt agree with their views and the world liberal is also a bad reputation to have as well for some reason

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