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intelligently designed fish
Lets see what you evolutionary extremist think of this. Proof our intelligent designer created a creature that could go from water to land. BAM, bye bye evolutionary theory, hello intelligent design.
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Missing link crawls out of muck Newly found species fills evolutionary gap between fish and land animals By Steve Bradt FAS Communications Paleontologists have discovered fossils of a species that provides the missing evolutionary link between fish and the first animals that walked out of water onto land about 375 million years ago. The newly found species, Tiktaalik roseae, has a skull, a neck, ribs, and parts of the limbs that are similar to four-legged animals known as tetrapods, as well as fishlike features such as a primitive jaw, fins, and scales. These fossils, found on Ellesmere Island in Arctic Canada, are the most compelling examples yet of an animal that was at the cusp of the fish-tetrapod transition. The new find is described by scientists at Harvard University, the University of Chicago, and the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia in two related research articles highlighted on the cover of the April 6 issue of Nature. "This previously unknown, extinct animal represents the beginning of the emergence of fish onto land, and the evolutionary transformation of fins into limbs," says Farish A. Jenkins Jr., Alexander Agassiz Professor of Zoology at Harvard and curator of mammalogy and vertebrate paleontology at Harvard's Museum of Comparative Zoology. "The skeletal material is three-dimensional and exquisitely preserved; most material this old tends to be flattened or otherwise distorted. The geometry of the limb joints clearly indicates that segments of the fin could move independently. The 'shoulder' and 'elbow' could flex, and the 'wrist' could extend, converting the fin into postures appropriate to support the body from below and propel the animal on land." "Tiktaalik blurs the boundary between fish and land-living animal both in terms of its anatomy and its way of life," says Neil Shubin, professor and chairman of organismal biology at the University of Chicago. Tiktaalik was a predator with sharp teeth, a crocodilelike head, and a flattened body. The well-preserved skeletal material from several specimens, ranging from 4 to 9 feet long, enabled the researchers to study the mosaic pattern of evolutionary change in different parts of the skeleton as fish evolved into land animals. "Human comprehension of the history of life on Earth is taking a major leap forward," says H. Richard Lane, director of sedimentary geology and paleobiology at the National Science Foundation. "These exciting discoveries are providing fossil 'Rosetta Stones' for a deeper understanding of this evolutionary milestone - fish to land-roaming tetrapods." One of the most important aspects of this discovery is the illumination of the fin-to-limb transition. In a second paper in the journal, the scientists describe in depth how the pectoral fin of the fish serves as the origin of the tetrapod limb. fossil discovery site At the fossil quarry on Ellesmere Island, jackets of plaster of Paris and burlap encase fossils, ensuring the integrity of the specimens during shipment back to the laboratory. Harvard's Farish A. Jenkins Jr. is standing. Stephen M. Gatesy of Brown University is working on the right. In the foreground is Harvard grad student Corwin Sullivan. Embedded in the fin of Tiktaalik are bones that compare to the upper arm, forearm, and primitive parts of the hand of land-living animals. "Most of the major joints of the fin are functional in this fish," Shubin says. "The shoulder, elbow, and even parts of the wrist are already there and working in ways similar to the earliest land-living animals." At the time that Tiktaalik lived, what is now the Canadian Arctic region was part of a landmass that straddled the equator. It had a subtropical climate, much like the Amazon basin today. The species lived in the small streams of this delta system. According to Shubin, the ecological setting in which these animals evolved provided an environment conducive to the transition to life on land. "We knew that the rocks on Ellesmere Island offered a glimpse into the right time period and the right ancient environments to provide the potential for finding fossils documenting this important evolutionary transition," says Ted Daeschler of the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia. "Finding the fossils within this remote, rugged terrain, however, required a lot of time and effort." The nature of the deposits where the fossils were found and the skeletal structure of Tiktaalik suggests that the animal lived in shallow water and perhaps even out of the water for short periods. "Out of water, these fish encountered gravitational forces very different from the relative buoyancy they enjoyed in an aquatic setting," Jenkins says. "Restructuring of the body to withstand these forces is evident in the ribs, which are plate-like and overlap like shingles, forming a rigid supporting mechanism for the trunk." Jenkins adds: "Fish feeding in water readily orient the mouth toward food by deftly maneuvering the entire body; the head is rigidly attached to the trunk by bones linking the skull and shoulder girdle, and thus fish have no 'neck.' The challenge of whole-body maneuvers on land was met by freeing the skull from its bony connections to the trunk, thus developing a true neck, which in turn allows the head to move independently of the body." The new fossils were collected as a result of four summers of exploration in Canada's Nunavut Territory, less than 900 miles from the North Pole, by paleontologists from Harvard, the Academy of Natural Sciences, and the University of Chicago. Although the team has amassed a diverse assemblage of fossil fish, Shubin said, the discovery of these transitional fossils in 2004 was a vindication of the team's persistence. The scientists asked the Nunavut people to propose a formal scientific name for the new species. The Elders Council of Nunavut, the Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, suggested "Tiktaalik" (tic-TAH-lick) - the word in the Inuktitut language for "a large, shallow-water fish." The scientists worked through the Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth in Nunavut to collaborate with the local Inuit communities. All fossils are the property of the people of Nunavut and will be returned to Canada after they are studied. The team depended on the maps of the Geological Survey of Canada. The researchers received permits from the Department of Culture, Language, Elders and Youth of the Government of Nunavut, and logistical support in the form of helicopters and bush planes from the Polar Continental Shelf Project of Natural Resources Canada. The National Science Foundation, the National Geographic Society, and the Putnam Expeditionary Fund of Harvard University, along with an anonymous donor, also helped fund the project. |
Re: intelligently designed fish
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| Originally posted by Boomer187 Lets see what you evolutionary extremist think of this. Proof our intelligent designer created a creature that could go from water to land. BAM, bye bye evolutionary theory, hello intelligent design. Source |
Re: intelligently designed fish
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| Originally posted by Boomer187 Lets see what you evolutionary extremist think of this. Proof our intelligent designer created a creature that could go from water to land. BAM, bye bye evolutionary theory, hello intelligent design. Source |
Just a thought i had for a while, not really that important in this discussion but still...
I find it funny how creationists think that since we havent found a transitiona fossil yet evolution must be wrong and therefore creation (ID) must be right. I mean like finding that precise fossil you need is easy stuff. I just sat down to study and i cant find my notes that i made yesterday and all Im talking about is a bunch of paper hidden somewhere in my 4m x 3m room, not a fossil that could be hidden anywhere on the face of the planet, hell it could be on the bottom of the deepest ocean where we will not be able to get to it for another thousand years but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist, just that we havent found it yet 
pic
more As for ID - don't waste my
Re: Re: intelligently designed fish
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. |
So, does it taste like fish or chicken?
Re: Re: intelligently designed fish
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. But if you're actually being serious, I'm quite intrigued by your conclusion. Can you explain to me how this transitional fossil find which was predicted by evolutionary theory between a fish-like organism, Panderichthys, and distinctly-shaped tetrapod organisms, Acanthostega and Ichthyostega, somehow negates evolutionary theory in any way? And then can you explain how it somehow bolsters Intelligent Design, a theory that continues to have no testable, valid, or falsifiable hypothesis with no predictive value to the scientific community? The articles and commentary by known evolutionary biologists and researchers that I've read somehow don't seem to see how this finding somehow shoots down their life's work. Again, if you're being serious, I'm interested if you could shed some light on that please. |
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THE discovery in Australia of a 400 million-year-old fish fossil has rewritten history books by offering a new insight into how how fish evolved into land animals. The skeleton of the Gogonasus fish from the Devonian period was uncovered during a Museum Victoria expedition in Western Australia's remote Kimberley region last year. Preserved in three-dimensional form, the fossil is the first complete and perfect skeleton of the types of fish that gave rise to the first land animals. The Gogonasus fossil shows the ancient marine fish had large holes in its skull for breathing, and also had muscular front fins with well-formed limbs like human arms. Dr John Long, who led the expedition, said the transition from a fish living in water to an air-breathing land animal with arms and legs was one of the most dramatic transitions in the history of evolution. "(The fossil) shows surprisingly advanced features for a fish that we never dreamed of before in terms of its structure and anatomy," Dr Long said. He said it took him four months to extract the skeleton from its shell. "This is the first one ever discovered that is three-dimensional and perfect and because of that its anatomy is revealed in far greater detail than ever seen before," he said. "If you wanted to trace human ancestry back to the beginnings of the land animals, you can now trace it back even further to this fish. "So, we're pushing the nodes of the origins of tetropods back even further than we've previously known." The fossil was discovered by expedition member Tim Senden of the Australian National University (ANU) during the Australian Research Council-funded expedition in July last year. Dr Senden, who was on his first field trip, said he initially didn't realise the significance of the find. "I was the lucky one that picked up the right rock - it was the thrill of a lifetime," he said. Museum Victoria's scientific paleontological team analysed the fish fossil using a new software technology developed by Dr Senden, which allows fossils to be analysed in unprecedented detail. The fossil is on display at Museum Victoria until November 19 |
they find one skeleton, and call it the missing link between all land animals and fish? Where are all the other missing links? SHouldn't they be finding innumerable hybrid species? And why are the hybrids so convienantly extict?
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why would god design all these "missing link" creatures, when he couldve just as easily just made man straight off the bat, and saved a lot of time? |
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| Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: they find one skeleton, and call it the missing link between all land animals and fish? Where are all the other missing links? SHouldn't they be finding innumerable hybrid species? Where are all the other missing links? |
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| Pick one: 1) There is no such thing as a transitional fossil. 2) All fossils are transitional. As impossible as it may sound, both statements are equally valid, at the same time, dependent only on what you consider a transitional fossil. It is important to recognize that there is no such thing as a distinct species in nature. Species, races, geni (gena? genii? help me out here guys.) etc. are all concepts defined by humans. Biology presents us with a continuum of ever changing creatures and we just pick certain points on the line of evolution of a "species" and give those different names. So, there is nothing species about a "transitional fossil". Imagine a color spectrum. There is no real difference between the color red and the color between orange and red. Orange-red is a transitional color that lies between orange and red. But at the same time, orange is a transitional color that lies between orange-red and yellow-orange. The only difference between proper colors and transitional colors is that we defined some to be proper and call the rest transitional. So, if you are looking for a transitional fossil that's half a fish and half a mammal (to exaggerate), you won't see that. But that is not what evolution predicts. You will see a very long list of fossils starting with fish and after countless generations (well not countless, i just have no idea what the actual number is. Some of the biologists here will be able to tell) you arrive at a mammal. But the step from each generation to the next is very very small, and every generation is a transitional that lies between it's parent and offspring generations. |
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| And why are the hybrids so convienantly extict? |
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| Originally posted by Lilith one of those 'US' things like Morons and Scientology. |
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| Originally posted by Renegade Here they are. Couting about 10 "transitional" species there between fish and amphibians, not including the one in the OP: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/transit.htm Also, I read this on another forum a couple of days ago. Please read it: For the same reason 99.9% of the species that ever walked this earth are extinct: they weren't fit to survive in the environment they eventually found themselves in. |
I fail to see how this proves anything on either side of the argument. Like Opus said, it would help to know if the thread starter is being serious or sarcastic. Since I do not know the poster, I cannot make any conclusions.
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| Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: Do these animals develop lungs before going on land? If so, what evolutionary process would have caused a fish to evolve lungs, and still have gills for the water? |
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| The current consensus is that earliest lungs were sacks used to hold air gulped in response to low levels of oxygen in stagnant pools. |
Re: Re: intelligently designed fish
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. |
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| Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: Do these animals develop lungs before going on land? If so, what evolutionary process would have caused a fish to evolve lungs, and still have gills for the water? |
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| Originally posted by DJ Shibby Many fish have lungs. mmm... dolphin |
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| Originally posted by Shakka I thought dolphins were mammals? |
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| Originally posted by Renegade 1) Gills and lungs are not the same thing. There are still fish today that have both gills and lungs and this was undoubtedly the case for the species which existed between early fish and the earliest amphibians as well. 2) Don't you have google? http://www.madsci.org/posts/archive...04962.Ev.r.html |
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| Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: Do these animals develop lungs before going on land? If so, what evolutionary process would have caused a fish to evolve lungs, and still have gills for the water? |
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The Queensland Lungfish has a single lung, whereas all other species of lungfishes have paired lungs. During dry periods when streams become stagnant, or when water quality changes, lungfishes have the ability to surface and breathe air. When the Queensland Lungfish surfaces to empty and refill its lung the sound is reportedly like that of the "blast from a small bellows". Under most conditions, this species breathes exclusively using its gills. |
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Pick one: 1) There is no such thing as a transitional fossil. 2) All fossils are transitional. As impossible as it may sound, both statements are equally valid, at the same time, dependent only on what you consider a transitional fossil. It is important to recognize that there is no such thing as a distinct species in nature. Species, races, geni (gena? genii? help me out here guys.) etc. are all concepts defined by humans. Biology presents us with a continuum of ever changing creatures and we just pick certain points on the line of evolution of a "species" and give those different names. So, there is nothing species about a "transitional fossil". Imagine a color spectrum. There is no real difference between the color red and the color between orange and red. Orange-red is a transitional color that lies between orange and red. But at the same time, orange is a transitional color that lies between orange-red and yellow-orange. The only difference between proper colors and transitional colors is that we defined some to be proper and call the rest transitional. So, if you are looking for a transitional fossil that's half a fish and half a mammal (to exaggerate), you won't see that. But that is not what evolution predicts. You will see a very long list of fossils starting with fish and after countless generations (well not countless, i just have no idea what the actual number is. Some of the biologists here will be able to tell) you arrive at a mammal. But the step from each generation to the next is very very small, and every generation is a transitional that lies between it's parent and offspring generations. |
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And why are the hybrids so conveniantly extinct? |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN terrible post. i mean, are you going to argue that the crocodile isnt really a descendant of the dinosaurs coz all the dinosaurs are gone? please. |
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| Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: my point was this. They are finding all these hybrid species. ok. that's great. we have more stuff to examine. but why aren't any one of these species they find still alive today? if they are, please show me a link. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN read renegade's post. in essence, they are still alive. just at a further junction down the evolutionary line. |
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| Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: i see that now. how do intelligent design proponents explain this? |
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