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Gun control debate

Perhaps only armymen should have guns. Unfortunately, there will always be people that illegally have guns in society, that are much more difficult to control. If firearms are to be banned, only the military and some criminals would have them, leaving law abiding citizens more vulnerable, and at a disadvantage. A criminal will be more likely to attack someone if they know they don't have a gun because they abide the law after such a law has been passed, and crime may very well rise.


what does everyone think?

Case

yeah i heard about this stuff, i think it is going to be kinda impossible to control it everywhere.
from my own experiences , i work with ppl in computer systems and most of them are gun owners.

but they should definately stop it from selling in stores, it should be used by militaries only.

Yeah in the UK there are no guns sold apart from low calibre rifles and double barrel shotguns, and to purchase them you need a firearms license which here involves a lot of checking into the person. If your caught with a firearm a have no license its a 3 year prison sentence, but you can still obtain firearms its very hard, I know of people who have got guns or so I've heard own them and not crappy pistols I'm talking things like AK47s, but weather its believable is another thing but it wouldn't suprise me because these people are dodgy. Here in the Uk some crooks buy deactivated guns for about 300 quid you can get an AK47 500 an M16, MP5s and all sorts, a lot of people know blokes who can refit firing pins and make ammo like an underworld gunsmith thats how some of the heavy stuff hits our streets but its rare because finding a crooked gunsmith in a pubs a different story you need contacts, also theres arm dealers who get the crooks guns, theres occasional stories about them in Newspaper and people getting shot and stuff.

I don't know how you guys can sort out guns, make strict laws to make people hand them in, send in police teams to overturn dodgy criminal suburbs of cities and conviscate and arrest people, it would be very hard to pull that off endless police resources would be used, and if someone hasn't got a gun and they want to kill they'll use a knife or an axe, we've had some simular incidents to your gun nut killings here in the UK of people walking into to places and stabbing groups of people, there was one guy once who walked into to a church naked with a samurai sword and started hacking at people, armed police killed him in the end. But when you've got a gun its easier to kill people, I think it would lower your crime rate by loads but well connected villians would get guns like the mob. a simple street corner drug dealer though wouldn't have a gun, nor would small street gangs, but to obtain guns from them people in a snatch operation you would need a law for gun control and also an army of cops to besiege an area creating near enough riots in some places.

we don't need gun control.... we need bullet control

each bullet of any kind should cost $2000 to $8000.

that would make any1 think twice before shooting someone, thus any1 may have the gun, but few may actually use the gun.... ahaha!

[[psst: thanx Chris Rock]]

The problem is that in the US everybody (or almost lol) owns a gun , it's part of the local culture , u just can't come and ban them easily . I still think a world without firearms is a better world ... just my two dirhams

this is predictable...we all know what the europeans and canadians are going to think about this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Excite this is predictable...we all know what the europeans and canadians are going to think about this issue.

Yup, and you know we`re right!

So, anybody want to take the "pro firearms" spot?

Here in Leeds (UK) there has been a load of gun voilence, mainly due to drug dealers muscling in on the current dealears areas. As i speak there is a guy in hospital under armed guard, and last yhear there was about 21 shootings.

The only way to really stop this problem is as SgtFoo said, we need bullet control.

Jon

no no no

PSG Sniper rifle aint a gun its a female's Punani

they should ban BB guns and replace them with AKA47 and MAch11

quote:

Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan I don't know how you guys can sort out guns, make strict laws to make people hand them in, send in police teams to overturn dodgy criminal suburbs of cities and conviscate and arrest people, it would be very hard to pull that off endless police resources would be used, and if someone hasn't got a gun and they want to kill they'll use a knife or an axe

trueeeeeee


If a law is being passed banning guns from citizens, it makes sense that knives would have to be banned as well. Not just that, but anything that could somehow be concieved as a weapon. As many people say commonly, guns (or knives) are not what kill people, people kill people.An argument can be taken that guns have no purpose but to kill, which is a very good point, but the problem still exists of people having the means to equally defend themself from someone else with such a weapon that has obtained it illegally.

I agree, one crime committed with the use of a firearm is too many, but banning "ALL" guns isn't the answer.

When crimes are committed with a gun, the liberals love to point to the tool and not to the perpetrator. It would be like a police officer pulling a car over for speeding and ticketing the car and not the driver.

So , in my opinion...When a criminal has committed an "Illegal" crime with a firearm, quick and SEVERE punishment should be brought against them . Just don't punish ME for their actions.

xoxo Ur Dream Grl

gun control means using both hands

In my opinion, banning guns and bb guns(Airsoft) isn't the answer. Yes it might get some of the guns off the streets but if u look at the bigger picture, there are so many more guns that aren't accounted for. If the gov't seizes all firearms there will always be illegal firearms on the black market. Personally, guns can save lives. As some people may say "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

The major problem with gun crime involves handguns.
The solution is simple, outlaw handguns and handgun ammunition.
Make it harder to get rifles and shotguns.

quote:

Originally posted by Ur Dream Grl trueeeeeee If a law is being passed banning guns from citizens, it makes sense that knives would have to be banned as well. Not just that, but anything that could somehow be concieved as a weapon. As many people say commonly, guns (or knives) are not what kill people, people kill people.An argument can be taken that guns have no purpose but to kill, which is a very good point, but the problem still exists of people having the means to equally defend themself from someone else with such a weapon that has obtained it illegally. I agree, one crime committed with the use of a firearm is too many, but banning "ALL" guns isn't the answer. When crimes are committed with a gun, the liberals love to point to the tool and not to the perpetrator. It would be like a police officer pulling a car over for speeding and ticketing the car and not the driver. So , in my opinion...When a criminal has committed an "Illegal" crime with a firearm, quick and SEVERE punishment should be brought against them . Just don't punish ME for their actions. xoxo Ur Dream Grl

So, now you told me why you think that guns shouldn`t be banned. Now tell me: Why should someone need a gun?

i don't understand firearms. maybe it's because i'm Canadian . or maybe it's because i realize that guns are completely useless. yes. even for military purposes. how easy is it to stare down the barrel of a gun, from 100m away, and pop someone in the back of the head? it's too detatched. it's scary. it lowers the value of human life.
i ask you, if we destroyed every single firearm in the world, what bad could come of it? sure, people would be killed with 'axes' and 'knives'..but weren't people killed with those things long before guns ever poked there nose into our business? take a look at america, all those flag waving, patriots who claim "it's my right!" no it's not. idiot. a right to bare arms is a misconstrued idea that everyone has the basic right to defend themselves. not that they can go out and buy a colt .45 to keep in their purse/nightstand/waistband. how many kids have died because of careless parents? that alone is proof enough to me that the world isn't responsible enough to have weapons of such destruction, let alone nuclear weapons.

quote:

Originally posted by Ur Dream Grl When crimes are committed with a gun, the liberals love to point to the tool and not to the perpetrator. It would be like a police officer pulling a car over for speeding and ticketing the car and not the driver. So , in my opinion...When a criminal has committed an "Illegal" crime with a firearm, quick and SEVERE punishment should be brought against them . Just don't punish ME for their actions. xoxo Ur Dream Grl

I agree with this post 100%. You can't destroy all guns and solve all problems. They've already been invented so they're going to be around forever. And if you outlawed them, only the criminals would still find a way.

If you want to control their illegal use more, i think they need to pass stricter laws about abuse... People are getting off too easy if they possess a gun without a license... IMO that should earn immediate 5 year sentence. (at least). With threats like this looming over, many criminals would choose other weapons for violence. I don't agree with the bullet idea at all, b/c most criminals don't buy ammunition from the stores! they get it dirt-cheap on the streets.... so if you charge ridiculous amounts for ammunition, that only means the law-abiding civilians won't be able to buy any, but all the criminals will still get some. It's not that hard to make ammunition yourself anyway....

Remember, outlawing guns isn't going to stop criminals... criminals will be criminals regardless.

People need to stop being so damn idealistic and wake up. Guns don't create all the crime we have.... the crime was there long before the guns. Yes the guns don't help, but that is not the source of the problem.

Why would people want guns? (i heard someone ask)... hobby, Ex-military, collectors, family hand-downs... there's lots of reasons. I am not necessarily "pro-firearm", but i agree in the right to bear arms. Guys its a specific freedom. There is no "right to brandish arms and use arms".... but there is a right to bear... You can't deny a freedom b/c a couple of people are abusing it. That is like outlawing food b/c a couple of people are fat. I mean come on.

-ABT-

quote:

Guys its a specific freedom. There is no "right to brandish arms and use arms".... but there is a right to bear... You can't deny a freedom b/c a couple of people are abusing it. That is like outlawing food b/c a couple of people are fat. I mean come on..

duuuude. why is owning a gun 'a freedom'? if you're basing it on your constitution, think of the time when that piece was written. it was in a time when guns ruled the land, civil war, hate, ignorance..oh wait.. still happening. just because you can be 'safe' with a gun, doesn't mean they are safe.

i guess there is no changing opinions in this debate.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} duuuude. why is owning a gun 'a freedom'?

why is owning a car a "freedom"? come on, man, we're not a communist country. You can make your own decisions and do what you want. You complain about guns yet you deal with illegal substances... hmmmm.... are you a tree-hugger!???

-ABT-

At the risk of contributing to a monster, as these type of posts go eventually...

I would have to say I am pro-gun, it would be hypocritical if I said anything else really. For the last 4 years Ive owned a 9mm Makarov and a S&W .357 magnum, both have given me a great deal of personal security in two really dangerous countries and enough confidence to not worry about a violent exboyfriend.

The way I figure it is, if someone is going to rob, bash or rape me then there isnt a lot a 5ft and a bit tall, 45kg little girl can do about it by myself. So I would have absolutely no qualms about killing them to protect myself or my family, as fortune would see fit Ive not had to do this and theres a lot one can do in regards to not walking in some areas and dawdling about like a retarded tourist somewhere your probably better off not being.

However.
There a great deal of social responsibility which goes with owning a gun and they are not toys, status symbols, collectables, a 'right' or anything like that, they only serve to do one thing.
Kill
Thats a very final type of tool and as a result Im all for very strict laws preventing the misuse of a firearm and more effort dedicated to getting them away from people who do have them and shouldnt have them.
The only "right to bear arms" should be with people who have the social responsibilty and necessary mental stability to own a firearm, this doesnt get guns off the street. Thats the job of the cops to fo that and if at the end of the day the cops arent doing their job then society should look at putting someone in that position to get the weapons off people.

So maybe Im not making the world a prettier or nicer place by owning a gun, but its a really butt ugly world full of some damn stupid people, violent people and general scum of the earth.
Being the person I am I wont be a victim of this world.

He ho, let the dicussions begin!

Sorry to disagree with you on this one ABT but...

quote:

You can't destroy all guns and solve all problems. They've already been invented so they're going to be around forever. And if you outlawed them, only the criminals would still find a way.

The sheer amount of weapons can`t be the main reason to justify them. Don`t ban them just because the effort involed is high? Weapons will be around forever but as the example Europe shows, it is possible to have them only in the hands of the army. Sure criminals would still find a way to get them and criminals in Europe also have weapons, no doubt about that but you have to limit access to them. The idea is very simple, yet effective. You part the market. If I could go to a shop and buy a weapon I maybe would. If I had a gun there is the possibility I might use it some day for whatever reason. Now, if guns are not sold in stores I might never meet someone who illegally sells weapons, thus i would never buy one and the possibility of me using a weapon is 0.

You surely wouldn`t get all the weapons off the street and surely criminals would still get their weapons and use them but the normal average joey who finds his wife in bed with his best friend and gets an emotinal rush and shots them both JUST BECAUSE he has the opportunity since he has a gun, wouldn`t be able to do this. Like a lot of people said: Weapons don`t kill people, people kill people! And the more opportunities they get the more they will do so.

quote:

.... so if you charge ridiculous amounts for ammunition, that only means the law-abiding civilians won't be able to buy any, but all the criminals will still get some. It's not that hard to make ammunition yourself anyway

Very true.

quote:

Why would people want guns? (i heard someone ask)... hobby, Ex-military, collectors, family hand-downs... there's lots of reasons. I am not necessarily "pro-firearm", but i agree in the right to bear arms. Guys its a specific freedom. There is no "right to brandish arms and use arms".... but there is a right to bear... You can't deny a freedom b/c a couple of people are abusing it. That is like outlawing food b/c a couple of people are fat. I mean come on

People don`t need guns with ammo at home just because they are ex-military or hobby shooters. they could get guns at the shooting range. they don`t need a loaded gun in their pocket when they go shopping. Sorry, I see no argument here.

If there is the right to bear arms but not the right to use arms then waht sense does this make? You used the car example (to explanin personal freedom). A right to bear arms but not to use arms is like the right to own a car but you don`t have the right to drive it.

You can deny guns because guns are, when used, unhealty. If I follow your argument you could legalise all drugs. the right to bear drugs but don`t use them....Drugs are unhealty when used but, just like guns, just an object when not used.

I respect the american tradition from the times of the wild west when everyone carried a gun, but these times are over. Sorry.

I think this is hard subject to tackle because I come from a european view point on it all. I think the way that guns are sold in stores is wrong, I think specialists shops that sell them with people with the right expertease might work, applying for a gun licence and peoples records should be checked and even full psychological evaluations on people might work to lowering the amount of nutcases that get guns. But to make that way you have to make harsh laws and tackle the people on streets who walk around with them, because if I lived in a bad area and I knew that gang that hangs down the street has guns I wouldn't give in my guns if I had them, remove the fear from the people and they will give in their weapons.

If the US governments Tackle the small timers who are likely to shoot someone over a couple of dollars worth of crack or someone walking around their area from another gang, then it might affect the amount of homocides in the states, because people like the mob kill rivals from other families, ot other gangs once all guns are banned they will be the types that will obtain guns, the people who carry guns the guys who are likely to shoot their friend and wife if sleeping togther, would probably give their guns in if guns are taken from small time crooks because it would remove the fear from them, like if I was a normal person and I knew a mafia capo and his crew are sitting in bar which I'm in I wouldn't be worried as simple as that, because their looking to kill people who they don't like. and people who they are involved in business with, now if it was a gang of 22 year olds sitting there chilling out, I might feel a bit more weary of them, knowing that one of them might shoot me because they've got to keep their rep or prove something to the others.

But guns will still always make their way into to places look at Northern Ireland them some areas there which are worse then some of the ghettos in the USA, shooting are a regualar occurance, you can have your kneecaps smashed in by baseball bats because your friends with someone, or if your known to inform they cruify you to the pavements with bolts, guns get into that area easily because NAIRA
North American Irish Republic Army send guns to the IRA, mostly the dodgy blokes who sit in the tough Irish pubs on the east coast of US are connected to it all, the FBI done an operation and they busted a lot of Irish people in America also a lot of Irish Americans involving them obatining Redeye missle launchers to shoot down British Army helichopters, now that operation was swift and it certainly busted some Irish Crooks in the states, now if the Government could do schemes like that with harsh gun laws people would get scared and fast, the only way to deal with hard situations like gun control in countries where its everyones right to posses one, needs strict laws, and a fast thinking and tough police force that can come down on people like a ton of bricks.

Sorry but i think a lot was lost on the translation bud

quote:

Originally posted by Sir. Lunchalot People don`t need guns with ammo at home just because they are ex-military or hobby shooters. they could get guns at the shooting range. they don`t need a loaded gun in their pocket when they go shopping. Sorry, I see no argument here.

on the contrary that is an excellent arguement. If you are a gun COLLECTOR or HOBBYIST, going to the shooting range and renting guns is not the same as owning one.... again, like you say, like cars.... is it as much fun to drive around a rental car or your own personalized lowriding-speed demon? Also, what about heirloom guns? My family has a lot of guns from civil-war era and WWII era... hand-me-downs from generations. This is strictly family sentimentality here... we don't actively shoot them, but they are worth a lot of money... something you couldn't get from going to the shooting range. Besides, think about it... do you honestly think that if we outlawed guns and just allowed shooting ranges to be the only place where guns were allowed, do you really think that would curtail crime? I highly doubt it...

quote:

If there is the right to bear arms but not the right to use arms then waht sense does this make? You used the car example (to explanin personal freedom). A right to bear arms but not to use arms is like the right to own a car but you don`t have the right to drive it.

you are confusing between rights and privileges..... for example, you have a RIGHT to own a car, but DRIVING is a privilege.... thats why you have to take a test and pass to get your license... MUCH like owning a gun. You have a right to own a gun, but carrying it is a privilege.... For some reasons most europeans think that in america you can just go into a store and buy a gun and take it home... it doesn't work that way... there is a 7-day waiting period where they do a background check... and hint of imprisonment or use of weapons in your history and you ARENT GETTING A GUN. The fact is though that most criminals do not buy their guns in stores.. .they buy them illegally in streets... and this was part of the arguement that outlawing guns wouldn't stop anything... criminals WILL get guns... (and part of my original line that you quoted was saying that: "..because guns have already been invented, the criminal world will find ways to get their hands on them.")... unfortunately you can't un-invent something. That would be the only reasonable solution.

quote:

You can deny guns because guns are, when used, unhealty. If I follow your argument you could legalise all drugs. the right to bear drugs but don`t use them....Drugs are unhealty when used but, just like guns, just an object when not used.

sorry i don't follow this at all... guns are not unhealthy. i also don't see the comparison to drugs at all. how are the two related?

quote:

I respect the american tradition from the times of the wild west when everyone carried a gun, but these times are over. Sorry.

don't be sorry... that has nothing to do with anything. I could care less about the "wild west"... and i'm not saying that everyone should carry guns and there be no law.... no one said that. I just said that if someone wants to be able to have a gun, they should be allowed. It's a basic freedom (just like how someone should be able to own a pair of shoes - for a loose arguement. If your country told you that you were not allowed to own a pair of shoes wouldn't you be pissed?)

Not every american owns a gun... movies and television depict it a lot worse than it really is... which is what forms a lot of opinions across the pond there What also is not considered very much is that there are millions and millions of guns out there in our country alone.... how many are used for murders? a VERY small percentage. You have more cars per-car-capita involved in homocides than guns per-gun-capita. Should we outlaw cars?

-ABT-

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Posted by ABTsportsline on Feb-01-2002 22:47:

I think what we can all agree on is that the US government needs a harsher force to come down on the illegal arms trade going on in and out of this country.

That i can vouch for.

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Posted by DJ_ALFA on Feb-01-2002 23:11:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtFoo we don't need gun control.... we need bullet control each bullet of any kind should cost $2000 to $8000. that would make any1 think twice before shooting someone, thus any1 may have the gun, but few may actually use the gun.... ahaha! [[psst: thanx Chris Rock]]

That's a good idea, but it's not so hard to produce a bullet and there will be a lot of homemade bullets going around for a lot less than $2000 or even $20.

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Posted by Ur Dream Grl on Feb-02-2002 00:09:

quote:

Originally posted by Sir. Lunchalot So, now you told me why you think that guns shouldn`t be banned. Now tell me: Why should someone need a gun?

oh boy... here we go...firstly before We can tire ourselves in futile debates on why or why not should someone need a gun...
I must say that you are entitled of your own opinion... but this is mine and a discussion is not gonna change that.

but since you want me to answer your question...

why should someone need a gun??? k....
well why should someone need a radio?? or a cell phone?? this question sounds rather odd...The assumption is usually made that by default people have the right to own whatever they wish, or do whatever they wish, as long as those actions don't infringe on the rights of others. People don't need to be given an explicit "right to own a computer", its just an example of the right to private property. People have a right to own things that might possibly cause harm (like a kitchen knife, scissor, a bathtub...oh becareful... someone might slip in).it is their right...and u can't just tell them not to have a scissor or a knife @ home

So An individual's right to own and bear arms, as well as actually to use them, must be balanced by the greater social needs of a society and its citizens' right to safety. weather it would be a girl trying to defend herself from getting raped... or someone having a gun at home to prevent robbery .
Or how Lilith mentioned ...a violent exboyfriend. It doesnt mean these ppl are going to go out there and start shooting everyone.

Gun control to me is nothing but a fraud perpetrated by those who are fundamentally opposed to the "individual" liberty.AND IT IS A STUPID IDEA CAUSE IT AINT GOING TO WORK!!!

the purposes of reducing crimes and violence has never succeeded,no matter how thoroughly it has been tried


quoted by abtsportsline:
People need to stop being so damn idealistic and wake up. Guns don't create all the crime we have.... the crime was there long before the guns.

.................

This is actually the best point of view stated so far in this thread and he is so right... worry about the crimes...worry about those who commits the crime.Inventing firearms and allowing it to be sold was what they should 've concerned about years ago.

but this is just my opinion.


xoxo Ur Dream Grl

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