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-- Going out on a Limb: "Water Software"

Going out on a Limb: "Water Software"

This thread stemmed out of a couple of PM conversations I've had. I wasn't going to post on this subject, but I've been encouraged to, so here it is..

It's my philosophy, and fee free to tell me to shove it, I'm certainly NOT ramming this down peoples throats, but please at least read and understand what I'm saying.

I'm not looking to kick off a flamefest (Though I'm sure this will get heated), but at least a rational discussion...

Using sofware you shouldn't be...

Everyone has done it at some point. I've been guilty in the past too, I'm far from saintly. The thing is if you really are using something, even if you are not making money out of it you really should buy it, otherwise there won't be a future for creative software. These companies are usually pretty small and they REALLY need the income.

The other side to think about is that apart from it being good karma, do you REALLY use or need that massive list of tools? Or deep down are you simply "Pretending" to have the same tools as "Insert name here"?

It really is better to buy them as you can afford them. That way you really get the most out of what you have, and only get what you really need and truely understand what will improve your productions.

That said even with limited budget you can go a very long way if you are creative. There is an awful lot of really good free stuff out there, some which is most definately as good or even better than things you pay hundreds for. There are also a lot of very cool inexpensive things that are awesome too.

Ultimately this leads to you producing better music. The odds are you'll find strange tools and cool ways of working that are not mainstream and you'll start forming your own sound.

I know it's not easy weaning yourself off of the candy store of gizmos and whatsits available, but it really is worth it.

Sorry I don't want to sound all preachy, but going legit is a big step, and at first it's very tough to get used to. Not least some sticker shock! One way to combat this is buy one tool every month, and slowly move off the warez.

There are huge benefits though, like being able to email, call and speak to the people who write this stuff (Ok, some of the really big companies SUCK at this), but many of the plug-in guys are not big and they really do go the extra mile for their genuine customers. They really appreciate you supporting them and that makes them behave in the most responsive manner to bug fixes and feature requests.

Anyway, even if you can't face going the whole 9 yards, try restricting the amount of stuff you have installed. One decent synth you know backwards is better than a dozen that you don't know very well. Restrictions lead to creativity.

Good luck with whatever you do. :-)

/me dons Nomex underwear..

Thank you Diginerd.

I wrote a really long (basically stupid) post about warez software and etc in the Production Values thread. But it was more just knee-jerk stupidity then actual thought out opinions.

And I agree with you. Buying software is much more honorable and gives you better Karma than just pointing, clicking, downloading.

I just bought the Toby Bear Monster Pack for 45 bucks and it's great! Tons of fun toys and tools for f-ing up sound.

And I, like many others, have had the same problem, of having plenty of stolen VST synths, only a few of which I know pretty well.

My problem is this. I barely have enough money for anything! I'm 20, going to school, living at home, no job and I simply can't afford the wonderful software I WANT to pay for.

I'm going to school for Audio Engineering, and even at discount, the Waves bundel is still too much for me. So I've been using a downloded version of the diamond bundle, and almost strictly using Waves plug-ins so I can know them through-and-through. And I can tell you. I do know all of them very well .

Believe me. When I'm not going to school anymore, have a decent job, and am working full time, you'll see a gear list on my website of software I've bought! And it will be great.

But for now man, I am definitely still learning. I'm pretty good at signal processing, mixing, mastering, production, but I am by no means GOOD, or PRO, at all. So during this economic and educational limbo I'm in, I am most definitely going to do a lot of warezing, and buy hardware when I can.

And I would never tell you to shove it Diginerd! Sheesh!

---Adam

Thanks again, Diginerd, for showing me the "Middle-Way"

When its all said and done, remember this:

If music is your true love you will work as hard as you have to. Nobody successful ever got there by taking easy-street.

On the other hand:

The first professional i ever met actualy CONDONED stealing software. He saw how interested i was, and tought me where to look for warez. If it wasnt for him, i would still be just playing Doom and looking at porn. Instead, i was shown a world of non-linear editing which i never knew existed.

Thanks to warez, i have learned enough to actualy make use of legitamate software.

But play-time is over people. Time to knuckle-up. Time to get serious about music prodouction.

quote:

Originally posted by DJFreaq I wrote a really long (basically stupid) post about warez software and etc in the Production Values thread. But it was more just knee-jerk stupidity then actual thought out opinions.

I actually saw that thread DJfreaq, and i applaud you for not taking such a hard-line approach to piracy. As a matter of fact, im getting ready to go back to college. Dont students get discounts on some of the "big" proggy's like Finale and Primeire?

Amen...

Every newb on the block has the "mainstream" bullshit tools that they grabbed from audionews.

The result is:

1.) An overflow of undereducation regarding theory and design.

2.) Increase in the security of future software (this is a good thing sometimes), which may slow performance in order to run useless algorithm in anti-piracy scripts on every function a la Cubase SX3

3.) Degredation of sound quality by causing abundance of the same sound to be created with the same tools and support in the community for a single type of sound as opposed to creative exploration

So ironically, even though we have MORE creative tools, we have simply dug a grave for our genre by providing a means to mediocrity.

Don't forget trial ware

to me its a great way to test drive some software for 30 or 60 days and see if you could really use it and if it meets your production needs.
Also it encourages you to really usc the crap out of it for the first 30 days

I'm with you 100%. Personally, I have never used a warez program in my production because this is my philosophy. More interestingly, though, is that other than the sequencers I have, I have only bought one piece of software: AudioRealism Bassline.

It's some people never seem to understand: it is possible to make quality productions on the cheap without resorting to theft, and this is the reason I, personally, draw a much harder line on it. People say that they've learned so much working with the high end synths, but they're still stealing. Why not learn to make high end sounds with low priced synths? Why not? I can't think of a single reason, yet people continue to believe that they need the synths they should be paying hundreds of dollars to get, when they really don't.

I was an anti piracy person for years, I bought reason 1 for $600 dollars and I was happy to do it, when u looked at how much it used to cost to buy all that stuff in hardware it was a bargain.
But then the upgrades came, 200 for reason 2, then 200 for reason 3. Kinda shits me that new people who buy later on get more stuff for the same money.... so I downlaoded the cracked version, which got me hooked on piracy now i download everything, i know it's wrong but hey, so many people do it that if you do buy a product you are effectively paying for 10 other people to crack it.
I got sick of being the 1 out of 10 people that's honest.

Eventualy companies will create anti copy software that works, no one will be able to pirate software.... Do you think that they will pass the savings back to the consumers? I think not!!

Therefore I will pirate while I can.

i agree with ralpheee, they charge mad bucks for upgrades that come out constantly. if you're a working musician that's making money of your music, then yes, buy your software, but most people 'round here are doin it for fun, or they just trying to break through. whatever...

So I have to pose a question... Do you HAVE to upgrade?
I'm guessing you're not running OSX which does produce this result on an almost monthly basis?

And I have to ask, why did you pay so much for your app?

One more point... CP is getting close. The whole ProTools Platform is now very effectively locked down. The small plug companies are now bordering on solvent, where as prior most were heading out of business.

Diginerd i love the way you are straight forward, you dont just have a black and white look on things. The point about limiting yourself leading to creativity is very true.
The warmest sounds i have been able to make have come from using triangle 2 (many instances but no doubt much better then what iv done with anything else)

I admit piracy was high on my agenda when i was younger but i had no money atall, if i didnt do it i would not have had any way to develop my creative side. Now that im old enough to work (and i do) i buy everything. Its the least you can do to support those who make the things you enjoy.

i think in some cases its fine. i paid �30 for a jp8000 patch which i think is clearly too expensive. could have downloaded it for free but theres a satisfaction when you pay for it.

Dj palm brings a good point...

If you commit to BUYING software, why not buy the hardware synth if it isnt that much price difference?

Also, if you are going to steal a program on the internet, isnt that the same as throwing a brick through a shop window and running off with some equipment?

quote:

Originally posted by jacheatamobits Also, if you are going to steal a program on the internet, isnt that the same as throwing a brick through a shop window and running off with some equipment?

no, lol

I've been against the EULA for software since I was old enough to read through it, and understand it.

If I purchase it. It's mine. I can sell it to whoever I want to later (you can't technically do that under the EULA terms.) So in my opinion software law is already flawed. Granted. It is still stealing, but that metaphor simply doesn't apply since the law is flawed from the get go. I would agree with you if software was treated just the same legally as any other good or service. But it's not.

Anyway. I could prattle on and on. But learning from warezed software is very good, and my professors at AI condone, and encourage it "You're going to this school, so you're going to be poor for a while, might as well be able to learn all the same professional plug-ins at home to maximize your learning time."

So yea. WOOT I JUST WON A SPEAK AND SPELL ON EBAY.

The term "water software" makes me chuckle. It's true though, something you can't hold in your hands does seem vaporous.

I've always wondered why the price of music software is so damn high. I realize a lot of work goes into developing such programs, but a lot of work goes into a PC game too, and an average game costs $40. Something like Fruity Loops is affordable to a lot of people, and you don't have to get the upgrades. I would say more people actually buy Fruity because of that. If the industry would bring the prices down on music software, they would sell more units. Never going to happen of course, because the rest of the software industry does the same thing. Did you get your copy of Photoshop for $400? Basically, by making the prices so out of reach to a lot of people, they are encouraging piracy.

Good point made here about if you are going to buy sequencer software and VSTs, you might as well buy the hardware. For the same price you could get a nice setup. I wish I would of thought of that before :/

Windows Vista, the new windows OS I'm sure you all know, is supposed to end piracy by using some kind of scheme that verifies every piece of software you try to install on your system. It sounds a bit fascist to me though, because every bit of software has to be OKed by Bill gates, or it won't install. That might even affect freeware and shareware. I'm convinced though that the scheme will be cracked, because hackers have a lot of time on their hands it seems.

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd So I have to pose a question... Do you HAVE to upgrade? I'm guessing you're not running OSX which does produce this result on an almost monthly basis? And I have to ask, why did you pay so much for your app?

No i didnt HAVE to upgrade , I'm just saying that it was the jealousy of seeing people who pay the same amount as me getting more, and the resentment of having to pay more to upgrade that led me to piracy, which up untill that point I was strongly against. Now I love it, Im hooked.

I paid so much coz that was the price Australian dollars.

And as u say, soon I wont be able to pirate software, so i will make hay while the sun shines.

By the way I do understand that this is moraly wrong
.

Ok, an interesting point has come up. That of hardware.

I've probbably spent close to 80% of my total studio investment on hardware, cretainly more if you look at it over the years that I've been doing this. And I've spent many thousands on software..

The nice thing about hardware, is it ALWAYS works (well unless something breaks, but that's rare), and it is totally agnostic to the Plafrom, Operating System or Sequencer your running.

It's awkward to deal with both from a cabling (It takes me about 30 hours to cable up my studio,and I don't have that much stuff..)and programming standpoint, but its solid, reliable, and very importantly, it has a resale value.

Hell looking around my studio there is stuff in here that's probbably older than somepeople reading this. And it still works as well as the day it was bought, and I'm yet to see a plug-in match it.

This touches a really raw nerve for me. There are many people out there going "OMGodz I just havz to buy teh Virus TI it's uber 1337!!". Realistically if you had that kind of cash to drop you could get an awful lot of cool stuff from Ebay that collectively will beat the crap out of the Virus sonically. Not least because that combination of gear represents YOUR sound. If everyone has the same collection of cracked plugs all you get is a large amount of mediocrity.

What's more you can buy something that's fully depreciated on Ebay, try it out, if you don't like it you can sell it again and not loose cash.. That's pretty cool in my book.

I disagree with the Photoshop comment above for this exact reason. It's $400, but you are simply looking at the COST not the VALUE. There is nothing else short of a Quantel system that does what it does. And a Quantel system is vastly more expensive than $400!!! Ok the Quantel rips it for a reason!

For free there's GIMP which is pretty impressive, or if you are on a Mac there's iPhoto. Finally if you buy a scanner 99% of the time it comes with Photoshop elements. Unless you are deep into things you wouldn't miss a feature.

Anyway I digress. For most people Photoshop is total overkill, why the hell do you need it? Likewise most serious audio tools are over kill for most people.

If you want to get started get a copy of Fruity and start mucking about. If you spend more than 40 hours on it then go buy it if you haven't already.

If you say you need Waves plugins, describe to me the difference between the Opto and Electro setting and their best uses (and I don't mean theretically) in the RComp before even coming to the table. Chances are you don't have the trained ear or the environment to hear the difference...

That's not an insult, I'm using it as an illustration as to why I think people feel the need to have tools that they don't truely understand.

Which comes back to pick a few tools, know them really well and just get on and make some decent music.. :-)

/end drink fuelled rant..

Software prices are WAY too high. I agree completely. My grandfather (who's been using computers for a LONG time) even says that it's priced too high, and that it encourages piracy.

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd If you say you need Waves plugins, describe to me the difference between the Opto and Electro setting and their best uses (and I don't mean theretically) in the RComp before even coming to the table. Chances are you don't have the trained ear or the environment to hear the difference...

And chances are I won't learn to hear the difference if I don't download it and test out different settings.



OH and tnx Diginerd. If you wouldn't have mentioned me not knowing anything about Optical vs Electro I never would have just gone out on the internet to learn about it!

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd Which comes back to pick a few tools, know them really well and just get on and make some decent music.. :-)

This is what i have done, ableton live, pro 53 and z3ta, i plan on learning them all backwards, pro 53 is easy, z3ta OMFG!!!!.

But I'm still not gonna pay for them. I'm saving my cash for hardware!!!!.

I was bitter at the world last night... Backup Computer kept crashing, primary studio Computer in pieces after it pooped itself..

Racks of gear on and blinking happily waiting for somthing to talk to them. Bloody computers!

Meh.

So I read my last post and it was less finessed than I intended (Damn Becks beer).

My main point out of all of this is less about the moral rights or wrongs of legal software, but more about the psychology of actually owning what you use and the level of appreciation you have for it once you've handed over $$. It all comes back to creative restrictions produce great results. No limits will produce garbage unless you are very experienced and very disciplined. I'd like to think I'm pretty experienced, but I'm certainly not disciplined (At least compared to a bunch of people I have a lot of respect for)

Even though I have a pretty significant collection of toys, I like to try and pick what I'm going to use before I start and see how far I can get with just that. Otherwise it's very easy to get overwhelmed and produce mediocre music even with some of the best tools aailable.

I you're still learning then it's certainly best to start small. And small these days is an embarrasment of riches compared to "Back in the day". Ouch, I sound like one of those annoying clubbers. Eeek.

Anyway it's your music, it's your computer, do what you like with it, but I encourage you to investigate actually owning what you use, and getting rid of the massive list of stuff that simply cluters up your ceative thought process.

ie "Hmm This needs a compressor", let's see, pulls up a list of 20 compressors. Odds are one with always be the go to, so do you need the rest, or are you going to go through each one A/Bing them? Unless you have very decent monitoring and really know what you are listening for chances are one will pretty much do as well as the other. Sure, a Sony oxford Compressor will beat the snot out of the internal Fruity one, but is it WORTH $500 or is that just a COST. If you feel it's worth it you'll go spend the cash and appreciate it. If all you are looking at is the COST and thing becasue it's expensive and "all the "Pros" use it so I must too". then you are falling into the trap I'm trying to get you to avoid or extract yourself from.

I did have more of a point but it's Monday morning, I haven't had my coffee yet and and I want to avoid preaching... More than I have already. Ooops.

I'm currently working as much overtime as i can get my grubby hands on so that I can buy hardware and set up a cool little studio with blinking lites and machines. But I reckon I'm still 6 mths away from getting there.
In the mean time I want to learn a few more VST's which are a bit more complex such as that z3ta and learn ableton live realy well.I cant afford to dish out $1000 to buy em both, well, I can but then i'm further away from getting hardware, and software to me, whilst realy realy heaps better than it used to be ( think rebirth ) is still more of a substitute for not owning the real deal, i see it more as a way to learn and experiment.
If I find I keep using ableton tho I will buy it, coz i realy like it so far, but im only just starting to grasp it.

quote:

Originally posted by Diginerd My main point out of all of this is less about the moral rights or wrongs of legal software, but more about the psychology of actually owning what you use and the level of appreciation you have for it once you've handed over $$. It all comes back to creative restrictions produce great results. No limits will produce garbage unless you are very experienced and very disciplined. I'd like to think I'm pretty experienced, but I'm certainly not disciplined (At least compared to a bunch of people I have a lot of respect for)

I probably missed the point a bit, here I was bitching about the price of software I see your point, and it's a good one. It probably won't cause anyone to stop loading up on as many free goodies as they can acquire, but you never know.

I read an article in keyboard magazine many years ago, it was an interview with the guy from erasure and formally of depeche mode (Vince Clarke is his name I believe), the one that writes all the music. He said what he would buy every older analog synth he could find, at pawn shops, music stores, where ever. He would create samples from all those older analog synths. He said he did this so he wouldn't sound like everyone else. He said he could use digital synths, and buy all the latest sounds created by some guy in japan, but everyone else was using those same sounds.

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