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hi im new here and a real trance enthusiast

well i bumped into this forum, after the surfing the net for 5 years and never new this site existed.

very big forum i might add with seemingly heaps of members

i am a musician, mainly world music but i have been dabbling with dance music for a long time and want to enjoy releasing a techno/trance single on vynil.

i am unnatural at this and i was wondering if this forum could help me understand some things that i keep listening too, but cant work out.

i am not a DJ of course and there are probrably heaps of DJs here.

Just wondering what a good length is for a CLUB MIX.

i have finished one track which is 3 1/2 minutes.
i call it a RADIO mix, or Radio edit like one of the cd singles i have bought has got.

then this single for example has 2 of 3 mixes which are longer which undoutably are use for the clubs

i myself am going to make these longer mixes. no one else will of course. hey hey.
question 1,
just wondering if DJs play a whole 7-8 minute club mix track or do they cut out earlier, usually, to prevent boredom maybe or something.

is it good to have at about the 4 minute area of a 8 minute mix, a section slightly fading out befor everything comes back in.
or do DJs just fade out at any time during a club mix track whenever they feel like.
cna anyone guide me.

Re: hi im new here and a real trance enthusiast

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster well i bumped into this forum, after the surfing the net for 5 years and never new this site existed.

I'd take a nap

quote:

just wondering if DJs play a whole 7-8 minute club mix track or do they cut out earlier, usually, to prevent boredom maybe or something.

That really depends on what kind of track it is and then where one would place it in a set. It's possible I might play a good 6 minutes of an 8 minute track in the beginning and only 3-4 of it at peaktime if it's a peak time track. No real DJ plays radio mixes.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec That really depends on what kind of track it is and then where one would place it in a set. It's possible I might play a good 6 minutes of an 8 minute track in the beginning and only 3-4 of it at peaktime if it's a peak time track. No real DJ plays radio mixes.

Except maybe as intro tracks.

Re: hi im new here and a real trance enthusiast

Welcome aboard!

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster i am a musician, mainly world music but i have been dabbling with dance music for a long time and want to enjoy releasing a techno/trance single on vynil.

Just so you don't make the same mistake again, trance and techno are not the same thing. They are two separate genres of music.

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster Just wondering what a good length is for a CLUB MIX.

There is no restriction in the length of a track, but the majority of trance I bump into is about 7-9 minutes long. You shouldn't fluff a track to meet those standards. You can make a classic track that's shorter or longer than that, but again there are no restrictions. The history behind the unusually long lengths of dance tracks dates back to the 70's. To keep a long story short, long tracks are meant for dance, duh.

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster question 1, just wondering if DJs play a whole 7-8 minute club mix track or do they cut out earlier, usually, to prevent boredom maybe or something. is it good to have at about the 4 minute area of a 8 minute mix, a section slightly fading out befor everything comes back in. or do DJs just fade out at any time during a club mix track whenever they feel like. cna anyone guide me.

All this and more can be answered right here in the DJ Booth section of TranceAddict (or TA as it is often called).

thanks nefardec
for the reply.

youre actually the first dj i have been able to ask questions

I live in quite an isolated place where there isnt really a trance music scene as far as producers go.

its quite difficult for me to find out even basic things.

i bought a TRANCEMASTER CD and luckily i have noticed that it is unmixed, the tracks are independant from beginning to the end.

i notice heaps of simple drums start off then parts come in gradually.

as i dont DJ or dont have turntables, it seeems to me that the DJ really needs to know the tracks to rougly know when the big theme comes in. on the TRANCEMASTER CD the main theme comes in different places in different tracks.

my so called radio edit starts with a bang as far as volume goes and the main theme. in my remix this will need to come in later according to the TRANCEMASTER CD.

is it not neccesary for the turntable which is fading out to fade out just before the main theme IF Not fully fade out at the point of the beginning oF the new big theme on the 2nd turntable. IS THIS WHAT djs TRY TO DO.

do djs not mind going into the 2nd turntable and have its build up of parts still in prOgress.

do you DJ guys alternate between those 2 scenarios, and if you know there is a great theme at say the 5 minute mark of the second turntable do you guys start the track of the 2nd turtable near to that point.

do djs like to start at the beginning of the 2nd turtable?

SO MANY QUESTIONS HEY!!

ALSO THANKS TO stevieboy32808 for the welcome and input

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster thanks nefardec for the reply. youre actually the first dj i have been able to ask questions I live in quite an isolated place where there isnt really a trance music scene as far as producers go. its quite difficult for me to find out even basic things. i bought a TRANCEMASTER CD and luckily i have noticed that it is unmixed, the tracks are independant from beginning to the end. i notice heaps of simple drums start off then parts come in gradually. as i dont DJ or dont have turntables, it seeems to me that the DJ really needs to know the tracks to rougly know when the big theme comes in. on the TRANCEMASTER CD the main theme comes in different places in different tracks. my so called radio edit starts with a bang as far as volume goes and the main theme. in my remix this will need to come in later according to the TRANCEMASTER CD. is it not neccesary for the turntable which is fading out to fade out just before the main theme IF Not fully fade out at the point of the beginning oF the new big theme on the 2nd turntable. IS THIS WHAT djs TRY TO DO. do djs not mind going into the 2nd turntable and have its build up of parts still in prOgress. do you DJ guys alternate between those 2 scenarios, and if you know there is a great theme at say the 5 minute mark of the second turntable do you guys start the track of the 2nd turtable near to that point. do djs like to start at the beginning of the 2nd turtable? SO MANY QUESTIONS HEY!!

I think what you're asking is if you would mix from the peak of one track to the peak of another track.

The answer is usually no. Sometimes you'll do it, maybe at the peak of the night, but that would wear the listeners out really quick. My basic mixes are typically like this...both tracks are playing for maybe the first/last 2.5 or 3 minutes, then I go totally over to the second track by itself around the 3 minute-ish mark. The track is still building up after you mix into it.

I recommend you buy a mixed cd from one of the big djs (paul van dyk, tiesto, etc) and listen to it (and watch when the tracks change), that'll give you an idea of what normal mixing is.

Re: hi im new here and a real trance enthusiast

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster i myself am going to make these longer mixes. no one else will of course. hey hey. question 1, just wondering if DJs play a whole 7-8 minute club mix track or do they cut out earlier, usually, to prevent boredom maybe or something.

The rule of thumb is: ALWAYS GIVE THE DJ MORE THAN HE NEEDS.

Remember: you're not giving him songs, you're giving him parts of songs (theoretically) that he will combine with other parts of songs to make a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

At least, that's kind of the idea. There is no set length, but the more you can cram on the vinyl for the DJ to work with, the better things are for him. He's using the records as tools to construct symphony. Do not put any fade outs on your track--if the DJ wants a fade out, he will do it himself via the mixer.

Note that the above has not been the case in trance music for a good 10 years now. With the explosion of DJing in popularity in the 90s came an increased demand for complete songs and a decreased aptitude in the skillset of DJing. Today, most trance DJs don't craft entire sets anymore--they just play tracks back to back like jukeboxes, stitching together the first and last 15 seconds of every track. Ironically, this practise has made them more revered.

What a DJ does with your music is not up to you. You should only be concerned with making the music you want to make, not the music you think DJs will enjoy. If your track is only 3 minutes, then so be it. It's up to the DJ to decide what to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec The best DJs play radio mixes.

fixed.

hey ishkur are you the same guy who put up that electronic dance history guide up.

that is some site by the way if you did that.
a great help for newbies and non electronic musos mainly.

Yes. I am he.

There's some incomplete information in this thread. Allow me to add something:

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Typical trance songs have an intro which is used to mix into the previous track. The chords are pretty neutral and simple. No real melody, but maybe a catchy hook that gets everyone's attention as the track is mixing in. At a point, a multiple of 32 beats, which is the typical trance structural element, typically one of three things happens: There is a breakdown. Everything gets cut out. Before this there is a crescendo of sound that allows Deejays to disguise their fadeouts easy. Like when supervillains escape in a puff of smoke. The melody of the new track ensues. These songs create a pause in the mix that allows people to gather themselves or to just enjoy a classic that stands alone. Mike Foyle vs. Signalrunners - Love Theme Dusk does this. Solar Stone - Solarcoaster does this. A melody begins. A good example is Freefall feat. Jan Johnston - Skydive. Tracks like this create a furious energy between the songs. It is generally undesirable to mix two melodies at once, unless one is going for that exact effect, or the melodies are complementary, like Pulser - Point of Impact (Fractal Structure Remix) and Jonas Steur - Castamara. The melodies have the same chord progression and key. The underlying repetitive, suspense chord of the intro "breaks" out of its repetition, releasing a chord progression that foreshadows the melody. I usually feel this as a very emotional release and a kinetic moment. This is how deejays create flow, energy, and momentum in a set. A great example of this is Fictivision vs. Phynn - Escape (Fictivision Mix) Listen at 1:51 how the progression breaks free of the suspenseful bassline. It's really cool and cutting out there from the previous track would be artful. Though you could wait until the breakdowns at 2:52 and 3:18 I wouldn't for the sake of possible key conflicts.

^^^ All this crap didn't exist 15 years ago. In fact, most pure trance enthusiasts don't regard this structure as trance anymore, since it replaced the repetitive subtlety of bringing in and dropping out layers (creating a self-enduced trance-like state, hence the namesake) and effects with the musical equivalent of hitting you over the head with a big fucking mallet, aka the anthem. Gee. Like we needed the musical equivalent of cue cards telling us when to clap and when to cheer, dingbats.

When that happened, all of a sudden a lot of people really started liking this "trance" music, because it was no longer this inaccessible, avant-garde, spacey tripped out bunch of weirdness, but rather something light and fluffy, like a television jingle or a children's sing-a-long picture book.

And that's basically where we are today: shiny, jangly music for people attracted to shiny, jangly things. It's like waving a keychain in front of a raccoon.

Now, you can make whatever music you like, but I strongly advise against making any music adhering to the structure nefardec is talking about. It's rather trite.

quote:

The best DJs play radio mixes.

Maybe if you mean mixes that are 3 minutes long, then sure.

But I mean specifically shit heard on the radio. Like ATB and Ian Van Dahl radio mixes.


Oh yeah, let it be known I'm from the united states, where we don't really have dance radio except in select major cities.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec But I mean specifically shit heard on the radio. Like ATB and Ian Van Dahl radio mixes.

Is it shit because you heard it on the radio? Or is it shit because it's genuinely bad?

You namedropped Jan Johnston for crying out loud. You think her swill is any different than Lasgo or Alice Deejay? You have no right to complain about trance's popularity, because if you heard Skydive on the radio you'd hate her too.

git.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Oh yeah, let it be known I'm from the united states

Speak no further, we understand

quote:

Speak no further, we understand

hehe, I'd rather had been born with a third arm in my back sometimes.


Also, "technomonster", Please understand that I wasn't supporting any of the tracks or structure that I mentioned - I was merely giving you the most objective "state of trance structure" and examples reply as I could. By no means do I think you should make a track like freefall - skydive or adhere to some sort of predetermined structure.

Ishkur's right when he says it's trite.

Like I was getting at the bottom of my post -

Creative productions beget creative deejays. And we need more creative deejays.

Maybe though, giving you the "trite" structural state of trance now will allow you to see where you can change it...

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec hehe, I'd rather had been born with a third arm in my back sometimes.

quite right!!! quite handy when your back is itchy

WELL I AM GRATeful for the quick feedback.

i am here 2-3 am in the morning now listening to a fairly recent MINISTRY OF SOUND CD with a KYLIE MINOGUE and INXS, boy goerge, goerge michael(to name a few)remixes, to see what happens there.
quite different from the TRANCEMASTER as they are songs with not to much of the breakdown and builup fo the TRANCEMASTER tracks.

the songs on the MINISTRY OF SOUND ONLY END UP about 4 1/2 minutes before the change.

so far i have noticed the changes like this.
1. the first song just fades out in the middle of the song and the 2nd one comes in.
2. there is a quieter texture section in the first song and the new song comes into prominence there.
3. that build up of crescendo in the first song allowing the second song to quietly slip in as the first song vanishes-infact it has a big swoosh with nothing underneath allowing the swoosh to finish over the 2nd song.

mmmmmmmmmm well i am bloody tired at the moment so i willgo away.
and write more tomorrow.
thanks guys. just wondering whether those 3 scenarios i might put in for the DJ to have choices in fading out nicely in my single remix.

or of course that could be a silly idea

YOU ARE A PRODUCER AND MUSICIAN, NOT A DJ!!

Stop worrying about what DJs are doing, and just make your damn music.

forget about the three scenarios. I erased them from this thread and you should erase them from your mind

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur YOU ARE A PRODUCER AND MUSICIAN, NOT A DJ!! Stop worrying about what DJs are doing, and just make your damn music.

yes i guess i am worried.
i am worried that i might make something that DJs will say.
nup! it doesnt mix well with other stuff.

just a few guidelines is what i am wondering about, like how many bars they would like of an intro before the main theme comes in.

crikees on that MINISTRY of sound cd, everything is perfect as far as DJing goes. everything is just the perfect length and so tight.
although it is a CD compilation, i have definately heard some DJs sound as perfect as that, live!! and cannot believe it. so i just thought that there must be a rule somewhere.

oh well, back to the drawing board.

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster yes i guess i am worried. i am worried that i might make something that DJs will say. nup! it doesnt mix well with other stuff.

psssst. Here's a secret: none of the trance DJs in this scene are very good. In other words: They will mix your song as well as any other....that is to say, not very much at all. The first and last 8 bars, usually.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur It's like waving a keychain in front of a raccoon.

Bwahaha!
Oh man, I'm so going to try that out tonight!

quote:

Originally posted by technomonster just a few guidelines is what i am wondering about, like how many bars they would like of an intro before the main theme comes in.

16 or 32 bars before the bassline comes in. then another 16 or 32 before any introductory melodies come in. then another 16 or 32 before the break. then for the outro at the end, 32, 48 or 64 bars would suffice

feel free to bend/break these guidelines in any KeRaZy BoNkErS creative way you wish, but realisitically, something like that would make it easy for pretty much any trance DJ to mix, if that's what you're concerned about.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur psssst. Here's a secret: none of the trance DJs in this scene are very good.

that also implies that they won't want to mix it if it isn't easy to mix. so you're kind of contradicting yourself there

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