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Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

I've just got hold of some CDJ's and Ive got a huge MP3 collection of 10,000+, Now I want to normalize all of these tracks because im finding the volume levels are just way out for each track to be able to actually take seriously when mixing.

Ive got hold of DBpower AMP software which was recommended by a freind, but only because he knew it had this normalization feature.

Anyway I was going to convert them all but obviously its going to take allot of space to have two copies of all the tracks ,temporarily anyway, so i was going to delete the older non converted tracks once theyve all been normalized.

Before I convert them all, any tips and DONT DO's before I take the plunge?

P.S I will be converting all to 320Kbps and I know that theyre not all 320Kbps in quality but forget that for now please as thats another headache.

Alright m8, I'm not trying to shit on you now or anything, but seriously, your post essentially reads like an admission of guilt as far as your "MP3" collection.

If you have legally ripped MP3's, you need to re-rip them in 320kbps, that's all. If you have garbage quality MP3's you got via P2P, why even waste your time normalizing them? There's a good chance you'll just flatten the sound and perhaps make them sound even worse, even if the volume on them is at a more desireable level.

Buy your MP3's or CD's legally... Then you've got no problems.

Thanks, no theyre all legal.

Sounds like he's jealous more than anything lol.

Cheers anyway, is this guy right ?

Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

quote:

Originally posted by daeus I've just got hold of some CDJ's and Ive got a huge MP3 collection of 10,000+, Now I want to normalize all of these tracks because im finding the volume levels are just way out for each track to be able to actually take seriously when mixing.

That's where your gains on your mixer will come in handy. Out of the hundreds of MP3s that I have sitting in my CD case, I only have three tracks which need to have the gain cranked in order to be at an acceptable level. "Normalizing" the volume of all tracks is a waste of time when all you need to do is turn one knob. Besides, that's what it's there for.

quote:

P.S I will be converting all to 320Kbps and I know that theyre not all 320Kbps in quality but forget that for now please as thats another headache.

I know you don't want to hear it, but I can't resist. Converting lower-bitrate tracks to a higher-bitrate is a waste of time.

No offense, but you're adding far too much work for yourself by both normalizing and converting. If the tracks are at 128, 260, 96 etc. then leave them so; I do (unless I'm playing-out or recording a promo, in which case they'll all be legal and 320+). If they're a little quiet, then use your gains. It'll save you quite a bit of time. Those are my "DON'T DO's before [you] take the plunge."

quote:

Originally posted by daeus Thanks, no theyre all legal. Sounds like he's jealous more than anything lol. Cheers anyway, is this guy right ?

You nailed it. Jealousy was the only reason for my response.

Fucks sake m8, I was only trying to tell you that:

A. If all of your MP3's are in fact legal, then why didn't you rip them to a higher bit rate yourself or BUY the highest bit rate version possible?

B. Normalizing garbage quality tracks is only going to make them sound worse. Learn to use your EQ's and gains.

I'm going to go play with my hundreds of pieces of vinyl and literally TENS of thousands of tracks on CD now...

I use MP3GAIN on all tracks. It modifies some gain bits that are in the MP3 file, these bits just control the overall level of the track. The process is lossless so the music is not damaged in any way.

You can set the program to prevent it from adjusting the gain too high, so that digital clipping does not happen. I set the program for 95 db but it will adjust the level lower if clipping would happen.

Mostly I use this program to normalize track levels for situations where I'm not controlling the music volume myself, for example when I just drop some tracks for casual listening into WinAmp or Windows Media Player, or a portable MP3 player, or onto a CD for a party.

Quote from http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/ :

"MP3Gain analyzes and adjusts mp3 files so that they have the same volume.

MP3Gain does not just do peak normalization, as many normalizers do. Instead, it does some statistical analysis to determine how loud the file actually sounds to the human ear.
Also, the changes MP3Gain makes are completely lossless. There is no quality lost in the change because the program adjusts the mp3 file directly, without decoding and re-encoding."

MP3Gain takes 5 - 10 seconds per track on a P4 2.5, depending on track length. There is an Analysis step wher it studies the track, and then you hit another button to Apply the new gain level to the track(s). Uses lots of CPU power so if it's a notebook computer it will get a good workout.

It can be run in batch bode too, for example point it to a folder of tracks and it will normalize all of them if you want.

I don't often play the tracks in situations where I can't adjust the volume, so I don't really need to use the program, sort of a habit, but now all my traks are about the same level. Sometimes on really old CDs the levels are low (88 db), and on most new CDs the level is high (99 db).

Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

quote:

Originally posted by daeus I've just got hold of some CDJ's and Ive got a huge MP3 collection of 10,000+, Now I want to normalize all of these tracks because im finding the volume levels are just way out for each track to be able to actually take seriously when mixing. Ive got hold of DBpower AMP software which was recommended by a freind, but only because he knew it had this normalization feature. Anyway I was going to convert them all but obviously its going to take allot of space to have two copies of all the tracks ,temporarily anyway, so i was going to delete the older non converted tracks once theyve all been normalized. Before I convert them all, any tips and DONT DO's before I take the plunge? P.S I will be converting all to 320Kbps and I know that theyre not all 320Kbps in quality but forget that for now please as thats another headache.

All tunes from digital record stores will peak at 0 or -0.3 for cd burning.
The tunes you find here and there on p2p are ripped of vinyl recordings and can peak at wherever. But I am not going to be an asshat and comment on how it's morally wrong to download as in most cases you can't find the tunes without paying 25-50$ at the gemm website. Let's keep the double standards for somewhere else, shall we?

Keep it real At least I will.

If you convert a collection of mp3's that are lower than 320 to 320 you are just wasting bitrate and you are introducing the posibility of further errors in the wordlenth.
It can only sound as good as the original bitrate.
If it's 128 it's a 10 to 1 compression ratio : for every 10 it lets out 1.
If it's 192 or 256 it's a 6 to 1 compression ratio which is a little better as you actually have some distance between the lows and the highs of the tune.
If it's 320 it's a 4 to 1 compression ratio which is far better quality.
Some people claim they cant hear the difference bettween 320 and cd but really if you can't don't get into post audio you will suck.

The louder the volume the the more bits of resolution it uses.
So by compressing the fuck out of everything they can squize more sound information into little resolution. Of course the track suffocates and so does your stereo image your lower end your overtones and e.c.t. The track on mp3 will always sound squared out.


Once it's encoded you can't change that.
What I would advise you to do is simply normalize in a descent program such as sony's soundforge and save it at whatever quality it originally was.
On your custom menu select the highest encoding quality to minimize possible errors
in the wordlenth. This encoding is not the prefered method of digital record stores as it takes forever. They preffer batch encoding with a 40X speed.

If you wont use a very good program to normalize I suggest you normalize using the automatic advanced human volume sensor also known as your ears.

With one track playing in one ear you switch the cue to one track ignoring the program material coming from the speakers. Next you play a loud part of the second cd and before you even start beatmatching you match the volumes with you gains going back between the two. This is a great skill to have when playing dj vinyls in a nightclub.


This won't change the fact that some tracks will seem louder than others.
The volume will be the same but the output will be different. This is due to the fact that there is no universal standard in audio compression.
So while the volume will peak at 0 the rms value will be different.
This is how he artist and the mastering house wanted the track to sound.
That's no problem with DJ mixing.

I wouln't do any audio processing with something like ''mp3 gain''.
You will bring it down to broadcast quality if you adjust the output with like a crappy mp3 brickwall limiter.
Simply put don't fuck with the rms value of a mastered recording.

If you insist on making shit loud no matter how shitty they sound try this:

cut and paste from the recording forums:

First, let us assume you have your tracks available as one left and one right track in one or two PCM-coded files of any depth and rate.

Step one: Convert from L/R to M/S. Bring down the S content (by doing "delete" or "insert silence" or "normalize to -inf." in your editor). Convert from M/S to L/R.

Step two: Bandpass to 2k-5k. With this, you limit the energy in your music to the frequency range where the human hear is most sensitive. This not only helps you get apparent loudness, it also helps you to ruin the ears of your listeners. A lot of DJs also work along these lines!

Step Three: Normalize

Step Four: Use a brickwall limiter (actually, L2 would be ok) to limit your track. The goal here is to compensate for musicians and/or arrangers who actually built soft/loud parts and dynamics into the song. Be sure to use a short release time so you're near redline almost constantly. Thresholds of -12dB are fairly normal at this stage. Again: the trick is to set the release time really short (in the 40ms range), and be sure to turn any dithering/noiseshaping things off to not compromise the integrity of the signal in the -90dB and below range!

Step Five: Clip. Most of the stuff we have now is contained in sine waves. If you calculate the power (or energy) of your audio signal (which is similair to what the RMS value tells you), you will find that if you integrate over a sine function, you retain a 1/SQRT(2) factor. relative to optimum power efficiency. To compensate for this, you drive your signal heavily into the redline, so you get (nearly) square waves, which have the best power efficiency there is. Some "vintage" people use analogue gear for this, I'd recommend a pair of ZVEX Super-Duper-Two-In-One with both stages turned on and both gain dials (the left and right ones) cranked. Of course, use the master volume in combination with the gain of your tube DI to avoid clipping your A/D converters!


The result, and I can guarantee this, will be considerably louder than everything else you've heard before (except perhaps for some tracks by Merzbow, who realize this process as part of composing their material). Your RMS values will come close to the 0dB marker. It will sound extremely loud on almost any kind of playback equipment like MP3 players with cheap 'phones, kitchen radios, car HiFi...you name it. The only playback device it won't sound loud on would be a stand-alone subwoofer. And by the way, you can even be sure it's safe to make a record (as in vinyl) from this master!

Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

quote:

Originally posted by harriz All tunes from digital record stores will peak at 0 or -0.3 for cd burning.

I don't about 0 db range
I've used the MP3Gain software, and I've noticed badly mastered digital mp3s.
they clip at 92.0 DB, while almost all tunes don't clip at 94 DB

I change the gain volumes on the range of 94 DB to 96 DB, that depends on where it clips, if it clips at 94 then I'll leave it there.

if I have a track at 98 DB and i0'ts not clipping, I will chnage the gain to 96 DB.

and I've found digital tunes that the volume they are recorded it's actually clipping.


I didn't know aboutt he RMS factor that you mention, but I think it's true beacuse I have some tunes that are at the ame gain, but some sounds louder than others.

Honestly I don't see any problem with mp3 gain, as long as you don't get them to clip.

Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

MP3Gain is lossless. It modifies the "global gain" bits in the MP3 to adjust the level. The overall level can be adjusted in 1.5 db steps in this way. It doesn't do anything else. The track remains the same, it just plays back at a different level compared to the original, depending. MP3Gain does not compress the signal, which you seem to be saying.

It is possible for a klutz to raise the level too high with MP3Gain so it will sound clipped, but if the "don't clip when doing Track Gain" option is used, no clipping will happen because the level will automatically be set lower.

If you have found anything negative about MP3Gain, please post it. I don't think there is any negative information out there.

quote:

Originally posted by harriz I wouln't do any audio processing with something like ''mp3 gain''. You will bring it down to broadcast quality if you adjust the output with like a crappy mp3 brickwall limiter. Simply put don't fuck with the rms value of a mastered recording.

Re: Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

quote:

Originally posted by tvmann MP3Gain is lossless. It modifies the "global gain" bits in the MP3 to adjust the level. The overall level can be adjusted in 1.5 db steps in this way. It doesn't do anything else. The track remains the same, it just plays back at a different level compared to the original, depending. MP3Gain does not compress the signal, which you seem to be saying. It is possible for a klutz to raise the level too high with MP3Gain so it will sound clipped, but if the "don't clip when doing Track Gain" option is used, no clipping will happen because the level will automatically be set lower. If you have found anything negative about MP3Gain, please post it. I don't think there is any negative information out there.

tvmann, do you know in the mp3Gain what equals to the 0.0 DB that people always tlak about

I mean if 91 DB in the mp3gain = 0.0 DB, or whats the relation.

If you have a track that is encoded at 192 kbps then you should leave it at 192 kbps because by converting to 320 kbps all you're doing is creating extra space.

To elaborate let's suppose I have a brand new 320 kbps mp3 track and re-encode it to 64 kbps quality for sampling purposes. Now I want to convert the 64 kbps back to 320. Upon doing the track still sounds like a 64. This is because once you compress down you cannot compress back up. Technically you can, but by compressing up all you're doing is making the mp3 bigger in size and the sound won't be any different.

For normalization I use a batch program called 'mptrim' which can be downloaded by right clicking and save target as here. For more advanced versions of that program click here.

Re: Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

quote:

Originally posted by tvmann MP3Gain is lossless. It modifies the "global gain" bits in the MP3 to adjust the level. The overall level can be adjusted in 1.5 db steps in this way. It doesn't do anything else. The track remains the same, it just plays back at a different level compared to the original, depending. MP3Gain does not compress the signal, which you seem to be saying. It is possible for a klutz to raise the level too high with MP3Gain so it will sound clipped, but if the "don't clip when doing Track Gain" option is used, no clipping will happen because the level will automatically be set lower. If you have found anything negative about MP3Gain, please post it. I don't think there is any negative information out there.

also if you havce analyzed track with MP3Gain, have you noticed that a lto of tracks they clip originally at the volume they are recorded.

I remember I had a plug-in for winamp, and it would analyze how many times the mp3 would clip, sometimes it was a few times, so if you get the db up by 1.5, at the first time they clip, they wouldn't do it that much.

of course this is not in all cases, but I remmeber when i tested the tracks, as you were upping the DB, the times that the tracks used to clip were a major number.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

I think when people talk about 0 db it is more about analog line level signals, where the standard maximum level is considered to be 0 db. It don't know how this relates to levels on CDs.

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio tvmann, do you know in the mp3Gain what equals to the 0.0 DB that people always tlak about I mean if 91 DB in the mp3gain = 0.0 DB, or whats the relation.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

Yes I noticed that too. About half the original tracks seem to have clipping according to the MP3Gain anaysis. I'm guessing here, but it probably means those tracks just barely hit the maximum level. They sounded OK. MP3Gain would reduce those track levels a bit to get rid of the clipping.

I'm also surprised that the MP3s showed any clipping at all. I'm using Exact Audio Copy / LAME which is the standard. Maybe there is a setting in Exact Audio Copy to set the level lower, so no clipping is possible.

***EDIT***
BTW here is another thread about the clipping, basically they recommend using MP3Gain to clean this up, it can happen when you make a MP3 from a heavily compressed & loud CD like from a lot of modern/electronic music:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums...php/t38063.html

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio also if you havce analyzed track with MP3Gain, have you noticed that a lto of tracks they clip originally at the volume they are recorded. I remember I had a plug-in for winamp, and it would analyze how many times the mp3 would clip, sometimes it was a few times, so if you get the db up by 1.5, at the first time they clip, they wouldn't do it that much. of course this is not in all cases, but I remmeber when i tested the tracks, as you were upping the DB, the times that the tracks used to clip were a major number.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Normalizing Tracks for DJ'ing

quote:

Originally posted by tvmann Yes I noticed that too. About half the original tracks seem to have clipping according to the MP3Gain anaysis. I'm guessing here, but it probably means those tracks just barely hit the maximum level. They sounded OK. MP3Gain would reduce those track levels a bit to get rid of the clipping. I'm also surprised that the MP3s showed any clipping at all. I'm using Exact Audio Copy / LAME which is the standard. Maybe there is a setting in Exact Audio Copy to set the level lower, so no clipping is possible. ***EDIT*** BTW here is another thread about the clipping, basically they recommend using MP3Gain to clean this up, it can happen when you make a MP3 from a heavily compressed & loud CD like from a lot of modern/electronic music: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums...php/t38063.html

Thanks, I'll check it out.

anyways when it barely hits the maximum level its not a big concern to me.

but let's sya I have a track sounding at 96 DB

and I have a track that is recroder and clipping at 91DB.

If I'm mixing, I would have to increase the gain volume from the mixer a lot to reach the other volume, it will be clipping a lot.

it's seems to me that If I change the gain with mp3 gain, it would be the same as changing the gain when live mixing.

I don't like track when they clip at 92 db, I like to have them from 94 DB to 96 DB, that's what seems to be standard.

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