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Europe Might Get Two New Countries Tomorrow!

Montenegro will be voting for independence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4994212.stm

quote:

Q&A: Montenegro referendum Montenegrins will decide in a vote on Sunday whether their small coastal republic should remain part of the state union of Serbia and Montenegro or become fully independent. What is at stake? The union of Serbia and Montenegro is now all that remains of the federation of six republics that made up Yugoslavia before the independence wars of the 1990s. In terms of both population and area, Montenegro is very much overshadowed by Serbia, and many Montenegrins - including Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic - would like their republic to make the final break and go it alone. The pro-independence camp insists that Montenegro is being held back by its association with Serbia. Those in favour of preserving the union point to the strong historical links between Montenegrins and Serbs - who share the same language and Orthodox Christian faith - and economic ties between the two republics. How do things stand at the moment? The union of Serbia-Montenegro was formed in March 2002 as the successor state to Yugoslavia under the EU-brokered Belgrade Agreement. According to the 2003 census, the population of Montenegro is 670,000, of whom 43% are Montenegrins, 32% Serbs, 14% Muslim Slav, 7% Albanians, 1% Croats and 1% Roma. The population of Serbia is nearly 10 million. Despite the close historic ties between the two republics, Montenegro already enjoys a high level of autonomy and uses the euro as currency instead of the Serbian dinar. Who is in favour of independence? Broadly speaking, most ethnic Montenegrins and the Montenegrin government back the drive to independence. The ethnic minorities are seen as mostly favouring independence, though some have expressed doubts over their status in an independent Montenegro. During the early 1990s, the present prime minister, Milo Djukanovic, was a key ally of Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic and favoured the preservation of some form of federal state. But as Mr Milosevic's policies attracted ever greater international condemnation, Mr Djukanovic gradually distanced himself from his former mentor and came to see Montenegrin independence as his ultimate goal. Who is opposed to it? Those against independence tend to identify themselves as ethnically Serb and see no real distinction between Serbs and Montenegrins. Many are strong supporters of the Orthodox faith and see the historical and religious ties between Serbs and Montenegrins as being stronger than any divisions. They point out that the greatest Montenegrin historical figures often described themselves as Serbs. The pro-union Montenegrin opposition regularly accuses Mr Djukanovic of seeking to set up his own "private state". What is Serbia's position? Serbia sees the Montenegrin independence drive as a stab in the back and believes that dissolution of the union will fuel Kosovo Albanian demands for independent statehood. What line is the Orthodox Church taking? The official Montenegrin Orthodox Church is part of the Serbian Orthodox Church and is against independence. An independent Montenegrin Orthodox Church was set up in 2000 with the backing of Mr Djukanovic. This supports independence but is regarded as a renegade body by the Orthodox Church globally. What form will the referendum take? On 21 May, a single question will be put to voters: "Do you want the Republic of Montenegro to be an independent state with full international and legal subjectivity?" A 55% majority is required for a "yes" vote to be accepted internationally. This figure was proposed by the EU after the two sides failed to reach agreement on what the threshold should be. But the pro-independence camp insists that if less than 55% but more than 50% vote for independence - that is, if the figure falls within what is being referred to as the "grey zone" - then this will be seen as a mandate to continue the drive for a separate state. The Montenegrin diaspora has the right to vote - with the exception of Montenegrins living in Serbia, who are barred from voting in the referendum. What is the likely outcome? Opinion polls in March indicated that, based on a estimated voter turnout of about 84%, the pro-independence camp had a lead of about 5% over the unionist camp. However, a significant percentage of voters - mainly those belonging to the ethnic minorities - were still undecided at the time of these polls, so the result is by no means a foregone conclusion. What about the Mladic factor? The EU's suspension of talks on closer ties with Serbia on account of the Belgrade government's failure to arrest top war crimes suspect Ratko Mladic is seen by some analysts as having given a boost to the pro-independence campaign. Mr Djukanovic has long maintained that an independent Montenegro stands a better chance of achieving EU membership than one linked to Serbia, and the EU's suspension of talks with Serbia is seen in some quarters as vindication of this argument. Other commentators, however, argue that most voters will already have made up their minds according to their ethnic identity, and that the Mladic factor will only count with waverers.

Haha, the rest got serbed

Heh, I somehow have a feeling Serbia will ultimately end up the size of Monaco one day.

good, they deserve it.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Heh, I somehow have a feeling Serbia will ultimately end up the size of Monaco one day.

Haha, I'm thinking the same, poor serbs

The Balkans is probably one of the most diverse regions in the world, besides US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5003220.stm

Montenegro 'chooses independence'

Montenegro has voted for independence from its union with Serbia, according to unofficial projections.

If confirmed, the vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia.

Initial indications are that 56.3% of voters elected to secede from Serbia. The pro-independence bloc needs to win 55% of the vote to succeed.

The question of independence has deeply divided Montenegro, with its opponents arguing that it will damage economic, family and political ties with Serbia.

Predrag Bulatovic, the opposition leader who spearheaded the campaign against integration, said his camp would not admit defeat based on an "arbitrary estimate by a monitoring group".

"The results are not final until they are confirmed by the state referendum commission," he said.


Do you want Montenegro to be an independent state with full international and legal legitimacy?
Referendum question

Serb politicians, Orthodox church leaders and Montenegrins from the mountainous inland regions bordering Serbia broadly opposed secession.

However, ethnic Montenegrins and Albanians from the coastal area largely favoured independence, as did the Montenegrin Prime Minister, Milo Djukanovic.

He has argued that an independent Montenegro will have a stronger economy and will be a better candidate for admission into the European Union.

Record turn-out

Indications that the pro-independence bloc may have won the vote has prompted celebrations in the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica.

The tooting of car horns filled the city and youths were seen waving the red and gold flag of the old Montenegrin monarchy.

Guns and fireworks were let off in celebration.

Polls opened early on Sunday morning and turnout was said to have surpassed a record 85%.

Voters, some of them dressed in their Sunday best clothes, pondered the referendum question: "Do you want Montenegro to be an independent state with full international and legal legitimacy?"

Montenegro's loose union with Serbia was established in 2003, replacing what was left of the former Yugoslavia.

Both sides were given the option of electing to leave the union after three years.

The last time Montenegro was independent was nearly 90 years ago at the end of World War I, when it was absorbed into the newly-formed Yugoslavia.

yeah my monte friends went out to celebrate last night lol. congrats.

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan good, they deserve it.

I guess you people are going to do to Montenegro what you did to Macedonia and the Serbian province of Kosovo.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf I guess you people are going to do to Montenegro what you did to Macedonia and the Serbian province of Kosovo.

huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto huh?

dude, thats a nice ass.

but yeah huh? what are you talkin about dude?

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan good, they deserve it.

such an enlightened comment.. good for you

Independence spells nothing but trouble for the area. It disappointing to see that so many Montenegrin students studying in Serbia will have their studies interupted, not to mention the family divisions between the two countries. and for what? Serbs and Montenegrins have virtually everything in common. The same church, customs, traditions, pastimes... the list goes on. So why the split? politics. A little trivial if you ask me.

Oh, and remember that there is a handy minority of Albanians in Montenegrin who know their votes will mean something. Now the likes of those in Kosovo will think they have a legitimate claim to Serbian land.

The economic argument put forward by pro-independence candidates is farcical. Any chance of Montenegrin getting into the EU is about as likely as Serbia's. Perhaps give it another 15 or so years, but until then this tiny country is going suffer without the economies of scale provided by Serbia.

I just wonder if Serbia will turn its back on Montenegro. That would be disappointing, but i guess they would have bought it on themselves

Yet they voted to become their own state and you're going to argue what the majority wants? lol. ok.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers The Balkans is probably one of the most diverse regions in the world, besides US.

Could you please elaborate this? Doesn't seem accurate at all, but I'd like to know the reasons why you said this before I can give any opinions on this matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto Yet they voted to become their own state and you're going to argue what the majority wants? lol. ok.

yeah, democracy is good and all, but since when do people know what's best for themselves anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by Dupz yeah, democracy is good and all, but since when do people know what's best for themselves anyway?

move to iran

anyways, dude the people want their own repulic? why? who the hell knows? the slavic people are often silly like that i guess hehe. But anyways, the referendum followed the guideline to secession to the T and it was bond to happen anyways probably. I don't think students in Serbia are going to be fucked per se but it might just make some things harder. I don't think it's going to be a big deal seeing as how this was in the serbie and montenegro's 2002 constitution so i don't expect to see Serbia just kicking people out or anything like that y'know?

The referendum was yet another victory for the invading Muslims. The world conspired to defeat Greater Serbia, but instead there will be a Greater Albania, comprised of Albania proper, Kosovo, Macedonia, and now Montenegro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro

quote:

110,000 Muslims make up 17.74% of Montenegro's population.

I guarantee you that number will grow much higher soon.

The referendum was also a victory for the criminal gangs that run Montenegro.

The pro-independence Prime Minister of Montenegro is a criminal who has an INTERPOL warrant out for his arrest. Having his own private state will give him immunity for a while longer (the real reason why he was pro-independence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_%C4%90ukanovi%C4%87

quote:

Ongoing criminal investigation in Italy For years Milo Đukanović has been accused of personal and political ties to wide spread tobacco smuggling in Montenegro throughout the 1990s. According to a 240-page internal report compiled in 1997 by the Guardia di Finanza (Italian Border/Customs Police and Financial Police, is also a Military Police Corp), Montenegro was part of smuggling hierarchy divided among various crime families connected to Sicilian mafia, Camorra and Sacra corona unita organized crime syndicates. The report claimed that tobacco smuggling in Europe caused an estimated $700 million annually in losses to governments and legitimate merchants.[3] Various reports implicate Đukanović in doing business with different Mafia bosses like Neapolitan Camorra's Ciro Mazzarella who was arrested in 1993 in Lugano.[4] Since then, other mafia figures like Francesco Prudentino, Gerardo Cuomo, Filippo Messina, etc. connected to highest eshelons of Italian organized crime operated out of Montengro closely tied to Đukanović's regime.[5] In 1996, Italy's Anti-mafia Investigative Agency taped a telephone conversation between Cuomo and Santo Vantaggiato, a fugitive from Italian law hiding in Montenegro. The two men were discussing the election in Montenegro, and Cuomo boasted that he was close to senior Montenegrin politicians. He mentioned that if his "friends" got in, he would be "much stronger." Vantaggiato was murdered in Montenegro two years later in a mafia war.[6] In July 2003, the prosecutor's office in Naples named Đukanović as a linchpin in the illicit trade which used Montenegro as a transit point for smuggling millions of cigarettes across the Adriatic sea into Italy and into the hands of the Italian mafia for distribution across the EU.[7]

quote:

Originally posted by Dupz such an enlightened comment.. good for you Independence spells nothing but trouble for the area. It disappointing to see that so many Montenegrin students studying in Serbia will have their studies interupted, not to mention the family divisions between the two countries. and for what? Serbs and Montenegrins have virtually everything in common. The same church, customs, traditions, pastimes... the list goes on. So why the split? politics. A little trivial if you ask me. Oh, and remember that there is a handy minority of Albanians in Montenegrin who know their votes will mean something. Now the likes of those in Kosovo will think they have a legitimate claim to Serbian land. The economic argument put forward by pro-independence candidates is farcical. Any chance of Montenegrin getting into the EU is about as likely as Serbia's. Perhaps give it another 15 or so years, but until then this tiny country is going suffer without the economies of scale provided by Serbia. I just wonder if Serbia will turn its back on Montenegro. That would be disappointing, but i guess they would have bought it on themselves

Exactly.

Milo Đukanović is a criminal and he wants his private state, now when he's got it, he can be sure that he won't be hunted for those criminal things he's done.

His talk about Montenegro's chances to get into the EU is rather useless.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf The referendum was yet another victory for the invading Muslims. The world conspired to defeat Greater Serbia, but instead there will be a Greater Albania, comprised of Albania proper, Kosovo, Macedonia, and now Montenegro. I guarantee you that number will grow much higher soon.

These are my thoughts exactly and I can't believe no one has seen this before. Yes, The albanians will take away Kosovo and this has clearly been long awaited for them, I felt that Serbia had lost Kosovo a long time ago.

Macedonia will most likely be a part of the greater Albania, the thing is that the albanians are very many over there.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Heh, I somehow have a feeling Serbia will ultimately end up the size of Monaco one day.

Kosovo will break themselves away from Serbia soon, and this isn't something that's very new to us. Montenegro is now a independent country as you can see, and what people fear in Serbia right now is that the other parts will be taken away from us. Vojvodina is a very nice part and the heart of Serbia, It'll most likely be taken away because there's so many other ethnic groups over there like Slovaks, Romanians, or for an example Hungarians.

I certainly hope Serbia keeps this together, so they won't be a even smaller country.

Well, to be honest, I really don't see why loosing Kosovo would be such a bad thing for you guys. I mean, they're already almost 100% albanian, and there's nothing you can really do about it. If you keep them they're sooner or later just gonna start spreading into your other regions. Besides, it's the most ass-backwards part of the former Yugoslavia anyways and is just taking up resources. As for their population boom, well, nobody forbade you to breed there too.

As for montenegran students, I think they're gonna be able to get the citizenship of both countries. At least that's what you could do when the previous Yugoslavia split up.

And I don't think Vojvodina will want to go away, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll start demanding greater autonomy. They did have a local autonomy in the previous Yugoslavia anyways.

And yeah, Djukanovic is a mafia type. But I think EU perspective for Montenegro is better if they split up because of all the open questions about the war criminals and the Hague tribunal that Serbia has.

Anyway, what's gonna happen with your soccer team now, you still gonna go together?

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf The referendum was yet another victory for the invading Muslims. The world conspired to defeat Greater Serbia, but instead there will be a Greater Albania, comprised of Albania proper, Kosovo, Macedonia, and now Montenegro.

I know there are alot of talks about a Great Albania. Which in theory is good, but it will not work. If you would know the history of Albanians ( which I know because I am from there) you will see that our country has suffered alot, and it is still suffering. Having said that, I do not want Kosovo or Macedonia to be apart of Albania, just because they are just as fucked up as we are.

So if we get united, it will be a huge mess. Not to mention that Macedonian Albanians and those of Kosovo are really religious, where the Albanians from Albania arent at all. Yes its true that 70% of Albania is muslim..but i doubt its 70 perfect. Its lower then that, and those who are, arent such big believers.

So if I was the leader of Albania, I wouldnt want a united Albania. We have so much problems within ourselfs..that being united with all Albanians is that last thing we need. We are very different from each other, and I dont know if thats such a good idea as well.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, to be honest, I really don't see why loosing Kosovo would be such a bad thing for you guys. I mean, they're already almost 100% albanian, and there's nothing you can really do about it. If you keep them they're sooner or later just gonna start spreading into your other regions. Besides, it's the most ass-backwards part of the former Yugoslavia anyways and is just taking up resources. As for their population boom, well, nobody forbade you to breed there too. As for montenegran students, I think they're gonna be able to get the citizenship of both countries. At least that's what you could do when the previous Yugoslavia split up. And I don't think Vojvodina will want to go away, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll start demanding greater autonomy. They did have a local autonomy in the previous Yugoslavia anyways. And yeah, Djukanovic is a mafia type. But I think EU perspective for Montenegro is better if they split up because of all the open questions about the war criminals and the Hague tribunal that Serbia has. Anyway, what's gonna happen with your soccer team now, you still gonna go together?

Kosovo has been ours for a pretty long time now, and even though we don't want the albos to take away that part, they're still going to make it anyways.

I certainly hope Vojvodina stays as it is right now, It's time to move on for once and this time without Montenegro which I don't see as any lose at all.


The soccer teams is going to play the World Cup in Germany this summer and they've got full support from everyone. Dejan Savicevic, former player of Yugoslavia is going to be Montenegro's head of their FA and they're willing to seek membership in UEFA and FIFA. They've got a goal to qualify for the World Cup 2010 in South Africa which is most likely a dream for them, but they've still got nice players out there so Serbia will have to rebuild once again, Unfortunately.


But for this tournament, we're all playing together as a team. Something we didn't do in the Basketball European Championships in 2005 where players started fighting and so on. The only thing we'll lose is the Waterpolo team, they're mainly from Montenegro and they're going to start their own team most likely.

That's about it

yeah like anybody watches Waterpolo anyways

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan yeah like anybody watches Waterpolo anyways

It's a big thing down there

well Im glad that we split up, as almost everyone else here in Serbia is... we will be better of from now on especially because of the tensions that have arisen in the past few years...

but I think it's a mistake for Montenegro, as it had many benefits from the federation and also cause the Serb traditional stubbornes (the best description for the term INAT - a term which only exist in our language I think ) - Serbs will avoid their standard holidays in montenegro and go for Greece or Turkey instead (for the same price you get a better holiday there than in montenegro)... and the serbs were the ones that filled their budgets and pockets, since they were the majority of tourists and montenegro relies almost completely on tourism...


as far as Kosovo is concerned, If I were to decide, I would immediatelly tear it apart from serbia, since there's nothing serbian over there any more...

@Kapedan: as far as I noticed people from Albania are much better people than the ones in kosovo ...i had an opportunity to meet a group of both, and I was under the impression that albanians had no problem with me being serbian which cannot be said for the kosovo-albanians, who expressed immediate hostility... am I right or did the situation trick me???

and the football team? it consist only of serbs, I'm not sure if there are one or two montenegrians but thats the top limit...

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