TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Production Studio
-- House Music structure question?
Pages (2): [1] 2 »

House Music structure question?

Ok so i've been playing around with house for a while lately. and i'm still not sure on the real structure. As anyone i've tried to map other songs that influence me and so forth but they all come out different. some have a 64 bar intro with nothing but drums and a bit of effects while others have a building 32 bar intro then a break followed by something complete new.

so i just wanted to see if anyoune could share with us a complete break down of the structure of a typical house song.

Thanks


P.S. There aren't too many manuals out there on EDM structure (or maybe i had a rotten luck finding them) but wouldn't it be kinda nice to write some simple, or complex, ones and put them up here?

Manuals for how to write music?

I think you have slightly the wrong idea. There are no rules. There is music theory which is a framework but the more you study music, in particular some of the classics, you start to find that many of these artists have found very good ways of smashing all of those theoretical rules to peices. Ideally thats the stage we all wantto get to.

Of course you need to know the rules before you can break them otherwise you are just flunking your way through the whole process. Which can sound alright or it can sound like you blatently dont know what you are doing. The point is you dont have that much control over what you are writing.

There are bajillions of music theory resources available on the internet and in print. The point isnt to slavishly follow everything that is printed. Music structure and theory is descriptive. NOT prescriptive.

My advise is to not think of music exclusively in terms of bars and breakdowns and fills at the end of every bar. If you were to do that, you would make incredibly predictible, incredibly boring music.

Just google music theory. Or search this forum for it. Learn the rules. Learn to recognise what rules are applied in your favourite songs. Whats sounds 'right' to your ears and when to use it.

Then learn how to break those rules, because music that has a mathematical and structural basis in every aspect, is not music. Its maths. And we dont listen to music for its mathematical accuracy...

house music is pretty versatile, at least it doesnt realy matter how many bars you use (you should stay within your 16 bar structure of course). if your beats and synths sound like house it is house.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative

not manuals to write music i've alot of experience with classical for example and it's completely different from "dance" music. mainly because 8 and 12 bar blues music, made for dancing also follows a certain pattern, especially since it was made to dance. What you think is "Classical" changes key and harmonizes in a way that neither rock nor rap certainly nor EDM could do.

it always follows a structure in our scene. whether it is Intro, Part A and then B and then A and B and then breakdown C and than B A A B whatever outro there's also a similair pattern.

A new style is born because somebody didn�t follow the rules and went against the norm in music making.
There are thousands of people making the same music with the same structures and sending the same music to record labels.
And they wonder why the record labels dont like their music? It�s because they hear the same music day in day out.
Break away from the rules and do your own house in the way you think it should sound. Its doing something different that makes the labels take notice and makes people copy your sound.
What will be the next style? Someone mixed this sound with that sound and made a new genre!
Do the same things until you get something that sounds different? If you do any crazy frogs I will just have to kill you!

quote:

it always follows a structure in our scene. whether it is Intro, Part A and then B and then A and B and then breakdown C and than B A A B whatever outro there's also a similar pattern.

I agree. Now write music along those lines.

Actually the whole point of studying classical music is to show you how often certain composers consistantly break these rules and these patterns and still manage to sound good. The idea is not to make copy/paste creations that have the same repeating patterns and intervals as every other classical piece.

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative I agree. Now write music along those lines. Actually the whole point of studying classical music is to show you how often certain composers consistantly break these rules and these patterns and still manage to sound good. The idea is not to make copy/paste creations that have the same repeating patterns and intervals as every other classical piece.

"classic" music and EVERY single other kind of music is differenebt because everything else was made for dancing. therefore it is based on the 8 or 12 bar blues structure that is crucial in any sort of modern music. no matter if ur doing something "different or not". ambient is not dance music, neither is certain experimental stuff.

hence, if you're working on house, breakbeat you always follow certains rules whether you like it or not.

There is no basic structure in any music genre, i think. Regarding EDM, its about creating an energy in your mix that makes people wanna move thair feets

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto "classic" music and EVERY single other kind of music is differenebt because everything else was made for dancing. therefore it is based on the 8 or 12 bar blues structure that is crucial in any sort of modern music. no matter if ur doing something "different or not". ambient is not dance music, neither is certain experimental stuff. hence, if you're working on house, breakbeat you always follow certains rules whether you like it or not.

About the only thing that is common to all house music is that incessant four-on-the-floor kick beat. Other than that, it really depends on what you want to sound like. Oldschool House tended to be very simple, with a one or two bar syncopated baseline in a Dorian mode, then go through a laundry list of TR-808 sounds doing spastic rhythms. Something of an A - B - C - D and however many more different rhythms you can think of. Other forms of house have completely different layouts. Progressive house, for instance, follows a layout somewhat similar to trance, building layers over a repeating bassline.

But seriously. There are no defined layout rules for house. Just go with what moves you.

Keep it simple with a few catchy riffs and a good bassline, and then just try to make a bunch of clever edits to keep it interesting for 6-7 minutes. Breakdowns can be anywhere from non-existant to huge, depending on what feel you're going for and how clever you are =P

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex About the only thing that is common to all house music is that incessant four-on-the-floor kick beat. Other than that, it really depends on what you want to sound like. Oldschool House tended to be very simple, with a one or two bar syncopated baseline in a Dorian mode, then go through a laundry list of TR-808 sounds doing spastic rhythms. Something of an A - B - C - D and however many more different rhythms you can think of. Other forms of house have completely different layouts. Progressive house, for instance, follows a layout somewhat similar to trance, building layers over a repeating bassline. But seriously. There are no defined layout rules for house. Just go with what moves you.

house has alot of structure how on earth are you going to say that it doesn't? house definatly has that bassline, which could be or not the driving force behind the whole track, or it could be layered with sampled instruments like trumpets, jazz/wah wah guitar, etc. the kick is constant but so is the 2/4th beat snare. and offbeat high hats.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Walsh Keep it simple with a few catchy riffs and a good bassline, and then just try to make a bunch of clever edits to keep it interesting for 6-7 minutes. Breakdowns can be anywhere from non-existant to huge, depending on what feel you're going for and how clever you are =P

that's a bit more like it.

yeah there is no structure for all of edm

i been there too i made some tracks that were a mess but i listend to people and learned music theory

once you study and learn music theory ,you basically take what you learn and arrange it in a pleasing manner.

i do agree with derivative

if you have 16 bars of a then 16 bars of b then 32 bars of c
your stuff wil lsound to mechanical and like everyone else.


and copying someones arrangement is not music theory or structure.


just do what feels right and what sounds good and in the end whatever you have is your house track.

quote:

Originally posted by Lepanto so is the 2/4th beat snare. and offbeat high hats.

Are they?

House certainly has structure, but so does any other music. The thing about house, or any music, for that matter, is that you don't have to follow that structure exactly. You can have a track evolve mechanically, or organically. It's your choice, so experiment a bit.

Yes, all music have structure, BUT i cant say that there is any rules on how it should be built.

The structure of a track, often grows with time as soon as u start working with it. Personaly, i almost never stick to the image i have of the track in my mind. U will find out, that u will get new ideas while working on it.

Wow, this post is seriously scary and disheartening.

House music often involves actual musicians, not just nerds sitting behind a computer screen (though us nerds are half the work!), and it hasn't experienced the same kind of "it must sound like this!!" that trance has, since people who listen to house aren't necessarily largely a teenage/just-post-teenage crowd.

So you don't know what house music is yet?

House music is groove. It's all percussion; it's all about getting that special motion.

You want rules and a manual? This is the biggest joke that you even said that, but I'll give you a rule: make it 4/4.

That's it, the rest is all you.

Sorry if I came across harsh in this post, but seriously, come on.

There is no simple structure to House music, though most follow a 16 bar structure.

16 bars intro without bassline (the bassline never starts before 16 bars, in general of course)
16 bars with bassline
16/32 bar break (sometimes 24 bars, but it's not as common as in Trance)

There is no real 'standard' House structure, but most commersial tracks start out this way.

Sometimes there is a 16 bar intro without kick before the 16 bars without bassline too.

quote:

House music is groove.

I should have this. This is what I wanted to say.

There are alot of ways to go about writing House music and none of them would be 'wrong' per se, but a key point to house has always been the way you swing it. You can go about that in whatever way you want too but Axwell, Laurent Garnier, fuckin' Spiller even. It all comes down to the groove.

If you play an instrument, you dont think of how many bars you are going to play before you change riff or play a lick or fill or whatever. You go on feel and what seems appropriate next. At least I do with my guitar anyway. This will come down to some kind of structure in the end, but the point is I am not aware of it when I am playing.

The best music I ever wrote I did on autopilot and I did it quickly. In the zone - I just go on feel and instinct. But I like those qualities in music so its good enough for me.

There are no rules

the only rule you need to follow is music theory

muisc theory is for all kinds of music there is no such thing as house music structure ,trance structure

but once you do learn music theory you wont need this forum.


but i think you are after a template (but dont listen to these guys who tell you to listen to a song and copy there
template or thats how you make your tracks no).

i learned the hard way that you dont need a template to make music
if you have one delete it.

just make your tune ,make each phrase at a time ,as long as your in the right key signature
the right tempo using the right timbre and synth for the genre you want to produce then your good.

but if a template is what your after then

you have an intro,a build,percusiion,build,drop ,drop-build,build - percussion drop,strings,build - main riff,drop repeat

thats a template but it could go any way you wanted.

for example most people start with everything and then go into a breakdown,then gradually build

me i like to start with the fx,pads and whatever and then gradually build the track its all up to you.




but if you want structure do a search on music theory and search phrases and form

structure is basically parts of a song and each phrase is a different part you would put together.
in a musical way for example

intro ,verse,pre chorus,chorus,bridge - middle eight ,instrument solo ,some ending

so you basically label them for example a is your first phrase b is your second phrase and c is your third phrase

a being the first verse b being the chorus and c being the bridge


so your structure would be something like

a a b a a c a b

or aaba
aabc
aaa bb cc

its all up to you but you need to learn music theory before you start making your form.

its kind of like riding a bike before you learn how to walk, dont jump out in the wilderness too soon.


but one thing to keep in mind is that your stucture ,your form ,can go anywhere once you have the basics down so you dont
need a template just do what you feel.

You dont even really need to know music theory although it helps. Even then, the point isnt to slavishly copy but rather to find interesting ways of breaking the theory.

Music that is theoretically and mathematically perfect isnt really music. Well it is, but it wont have a soul if thats all you do.

Some artists get by without knowing anything about music theory and still make wonderful emotive music, using just sound and timbre - check out any ambient/industrial work to see that in effect.

Not to be a party pooper, but its funny to see people arguing about the "predictableness" (if that is a word) of music when they happen to be on the forum for one of the most repeditive/predictable genres.

My strategy is to work on something until it sounds good to me. Others can make up their own mind after that. For now I am going to find a way to mesh house and trance into a set.

Peace

If you think trance is predictable you are listening to some shitty trance.

Check out a few Space Cat tune like 'Beam Me Up' and tell me that in any way is predictable. Trance has *always* been a state of mind, *not* a structure in music. A state of mind in the writing of the music and/or a state of mind you want to put the listener in. It does not really have any specific form except in commercial tpyes of Trance.

And rightly so, because I have seen Orchestras playing where some of the muscians in the pack are so far gone that you can see it all over their face and hear it in the instrument they are playing. And I found that experience mesmerising and very trance like. Its not something which has borders or genres or which can be pigeon holed into 1 style of writing music. It doesnt work like that.

The repetition in 'Trance music' is necessary so that you lose your orientation in the mix but beyond that you have free artistic license to do whatever the hell you want. You definitely hear that on 'Beam Me Up' because it not only has irregular phrases but whole instruments sit in the background of the mix for minutes before you even realise they are there. Instruments come in and they are completely out of tune and audibly so.

The whole experience is deranged and it is totally hypnotic. It feels about 3 minutes long when its actually 8.

Well then we are on different pages. I don't like those tracks "although I do appriciate the work that went into them" because they are not the sound or style or drive I go for. I like the more fast paced hands in the air dutch trance. Some may say its cheesy or predictable or too commercial "music these days is commercial to buck up and realize it, just don't let that hinder your creativity" but I don't really care, because If I can get a club to move, then I did my job. I listen to unpredictable music like Squarepusher and I am much happier making dutch cheese "HI-NRG Alphazone trance if you know what I mean ;-)"

Don't take everything so seriously, some people don't think electronic music IS music.

quote:

[i][b] The repetition in 'Trance music' is necessary so that you lose your orientation in the mix but beyond that you have free artistic license to do whatever the hell you want

Just a side note, I always thought, historically, the repetition was so it could be danced to. Tell me if I am wrong.

Debateable. It is also debateable that the roots of trance music started with Psychic TV. Psychic TV were a group of performance artists in the late 70s/Early 80s consisting of some Throbbing Gristle members. Throbbing Gristle was about raw emotion in performance. They couldnt play any instruments, couldnt sing and they all sucked. But they did enough live sex and body mutilation to piss enough people off thus ensuring their place in the annals of Electronic Music history. Their legacy is now known as Industrial Records but I digress.

Psychic TV was a side project with a more ocultish spin. And one of the ideas they played around with was contant repetition to try to induce a trance like state. This wasnt for euphoria or anything. They hated drugs. They hated pretty much everything. The idea was mind control. Coil later did this better in my opinion on Time Machines and the effect is more subtle.

But yea Psychic TV were big into media manipulation and mind control at the time so that was the logical extension of that idea. Later on the influence supposedly filtered on through to the dance music scene. I dont know the reasons, but early pioneers like Goa Gil cite Industrial and post Industrial bands like Cabaret Voltaire amongst their influences. Make of that what you will. You would have to ask Goa Gil himself exactly what it was in Cabaret Voltaire's music that inspired him to make music the way he did. I dont think anyone else would know...

Also given the cheap tools you had to work with in the 80s, alot of them were groovebox type things like the 303 where the only way of creating variations on them was to make more looped patterns. Composition on a 303 is basically just that. Patterns and loops that you make less boring by accenting and sliding some of the notes along with judicious filter cutoff movement.

I get the impression it was an accident that Dance Music spawned trance in this way. I was only a few years old when this was going on, but chronogically speaking, Psychic TV were the first electronic musicians to experiment with the idea of repetition and it had nothing to do with dancing. Genesis P-Orridge hates club music...

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.