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Same Frequencies ?

It happens so many times that 2 different instruments or more use the same frequencies.
Hence, none of them could be heard properly due to the mudiness it creates.
Now, how do i correct that in Reason.
I got my kick and syth messing it up completely for me.

I would just move the melody or bass line so they aren�t occupying the same frequencies.
Some people would just say equalise one of the melodies or bass line so they aren�t making your tune sound muddy.
You could also try using a filter if they are playing the same melody, or just try a filter and see what happens.
If you have two instruments playing the same melody get one to play the bass notes and the other to play the high notes, that way you get to keep the two instruments sounds you like.
Lots of ways to do things, you could try and space out the patterns so that the two instruments don�t plat at the same time avoiding the muddiness.
Hope it works out

I think this is worth pointing out:

Every instrument at some point occupies every audible frequency. However, most of the high amplitude component is usually confined to a smaller range.

I.E. A bog standard 909 kick drum sample occupies pretty much every audible frequency from less than 20hz to beyond 20,000hz. But the highest amplitude component is typically between 50 and 500 hz.

However, if you were to use an EQ to kill all the frequency eitherside of 50 and 500 hz, that kick drum would sound totally shit.

When you have more than 1 instrument, Overlap *will* be inevitable. There are only a few instances I can think of where this wouldnt be the case - for instance, an 808 kick drum which has virtually no presense above 7000hz and a 909 off hat sample which you can low shelf below 5000hz without changing much in the way of the texture and tone of the sound. But thats only because the highest amplitude component of each sound are (figuratively speaking) miles apart.

Overlap is inevitable with mid range/lead type instruments and bass instruments so dont even try using filters/EQs to destroy large parts of the sound so you can get a square block into a round hole.

You are missing out stereo width. You can have 2 identical sounds, with identical amplitude peaks across identical frequency ranges but increasing the stereo width of 1 of them, will make them not overlap so much. Its hard to explain but stereo width is commonly thought of as the Z axis of a Frequency/Amplitude X/Y spectrum. Experiment with that, panning and subtle amounts of detune to get around the phasing problems that may occur when you do this. You should be able to get away with a few instruments peaking in the same frequency range, provided they arent both exactly in phase at the same time.

try a subtle sidechaining.

quote:

Originally posted by tranceinjection I would just move the melody or bass line so they aren�t occupying the same frequencies. Some people would just say equalise one of the melodies or bass line so they aren�t making your tune sound muddy. You could also try using a filter if they are playing the same melody, or just try a filter and see what happens. If you have two instruments playing the same melody get one to play the bass notes and the other to play the high notes, that way you get to keep the two instruments sounds you like. Lots of ways to do things, you could try and space out the patterns so that the two instruments don�t plat at the same time avoiding the muddiness. Hope it works out

Move in what sense..?
I got the synth lead inteferring with the kick.
so its the normal 4/4 kicks goin on simultaneously with the lead..the lead overlapping the kick making it sound worst.
however, ill try some of the things like changing notes or may be subtle sidechaining.
thanks very much.

Re: Same Frequencies ?

quote:

Originally posted by funkysouls It happens so many times that 2 different instruments or more use the same frequencies. Hence, none of them could be heard properly due to the mudiness it creates. Now, how do i correct that in Reason. I got my kick and syth messing it up completely for me.

3 Simple ways:

1. Pan and EQ
Pan it so one of the leads is a little right, and the other is a little left. Just like in rock/pop mixing, this is commenly done since there is often a lead guitar and a rythem guitar (or a lead synth and rythm synth) do some panning.

EQ, well duh! Make those synths not share the same frequency space. But your problem my friend is that A LOT of the times, even subtle EQ moves will change the tone of your delicious synth quite drastically. (That's from personal experience, I try not to EQ my synth lines too much, however BASSLINES it's ALL about EQ).


2. Go up or down an octave on one of the leads
Yea. That's right. Throw it in a different frequency range MUSICALLY.

3. Throw it out
BE DONE WITH IT. Maybe you don't need another synth line.

You should also consider frequency as a unit of pitch in the audible sound spektrum.

Some people like to EQ their synths, but I prefer to leave them raw. Its up to you.

No two samples should cover the same frequency range as the other with close to equal amplitude, otherwise you'll get mudd.

All the best,
moeva.

Hmm, i can hear that u are in need of a frequency analyzer, and i think u can route the vocoder in reason, and make it a freq analyzer. This could help u alot to see how the istruments work.

I know it ay not be the most precise analyzer, but i think it could help u when u work with EQ tweaking the sound. Use it on those istruments that u have problem with and use one at the master, to see to hole freq range of the track.

Hope i could help a bit, but i dont have a tutorial on how to make the vocoder in to a analyzer, im not a reason user, but i know u will find something about it if u search this and other forums, or just google it.

Cheers C

quote:

No two samples should cover the same frequency range as the other with close to equal amplitude, otherwise you'll get mudd.

99% of the time this isnt possible unless you use filters to kill whole frequency ranges on certain instruments. Most of the time this is BAD.

Spectrum analysers are useful no doubt but they only graph amplitude over frequency. They do not take into account the 3rd axis - stereo width.

Come on guys, the advise about having instruments never sharing the same frequency range is not only wrong but also misleading.

Run a spectrum analysis of pretty much any instrument. Even instruments like snare drums which have a very narrow band have some presence in every audible frequency above its fundamental. Theres even some below it too. Nearly every real word sound has presence at every audible level, some greater than others but...The more instruments you add the more it will pile up and you cant EQ/Filter it all out without making something sound totally unnatural.

For any instrument that ends up having to sit between sub bass and sibilant high hats, overlapping frequency ranges is inevitable. It is impossible to write a song where no frequency ranges overlap. Not one that sounds half good anyway.

Stereo width, stereo width, stereo width. You can have 2 similar sounds with similar amplitudes and frequency distributions playing at the same time if they have enough stereo separation. So many people here are still thinking of audio design in two dimensions and are ignoring phase completely. Its an important property of sound, especially if you are mixing in stereo. And pretty much everyone here will be mixing in stereo.

Re: Same Frequencies ?

quote:

Originally posted by funkysouls It happens so many times that 2 different instruments or more use the same frequencies. Hence, none of them could be heard properly due to the mudiness it creates. Now, how do i correct that in Reason. I got my kick and syth messing it up completely for me.

IF you got two leads that's using the same frequencies, then just pan them.

In your case you could try to stereo seperate, or whatever it's called, the synth more.

But the best way is to EQ it. I would suggest you want the kick to stand out, so find the corresponding frequencies for the kick and the synth, and cut them out from the synth. You could say that this would make the synth sound shit. Well, yes alone, but not in the mix. IF, however, it sound shitty in the mix, then find the frequence you cut out that makes it sound shitty, and instead cut it from the kick.

Re: Re: Same Frequencies ?

quote:

Originally posted by PutBoy IF you got two leads that's using the same frequencies, then just pan them. In your case you could try to stereo seperate, or whatever it's called, the synth more. But the best way is to EQ it. I would suggest you want the kick to stand out, so find the corresponding frequencies for the kick and the synth, and cut them out from the synth. You could say that this would make the synth sound shit. Well, yes alone, but not in the mix. IF, however, it sound shitty in the mix, then find the frequence you cut out that makes it sound shitty, and instead cut it from the kick.

Well, if it sounds shit when i m playing it alone, this can be fixed by duplicating the synth track ( without EQ )and playing it wen the lead plays solo.
will definately give it a try.

@ Derivative.
Its so true that its impossible to write a song where instruments aren't sharing same frequencies unless theer are very less instruments used but
Stereo Seperation.. how do i go about it ?

@ substorm.
Yeah, even a frequency analyser can do it i think.
I'll try google the tutorial.

Thnaks very much peeps.
IF anyone with a more definate idea of how to go about with it in Reason, pleaseeeee !

Re: Re: Re: Same Frequencies ?

quote:

Originally posted by funkysouls Stereo Seperation.. how do i go about it ?

I think he refers to panning.

Panning is not stereo separation. Although I agree you should be working with panning too. Thats another important part of a mix which is overlooked early on.

You can use any stereo widening plugin to increase stereo separation. Or you can do it the original 'no plugins' way by adding a slight delay, amounting to a few milliseconds to either the left or the right channel of a stereo sound. It doesnt really matter which one.

Increasing or decreasing the delay (stereo separation) results in some strange phasing properties. You should be careful with this because you will be causing destructive phasing. If theres alot of it going on theres a good chance it will ruin mono compatibility.

The more intesne your mixes, get, the more instruments you have, the scarier phase cancallation can be.

On my most recent track, Examples of Beauty, I'm still strugling getting my phase relationship in good shape. It's hard because pianos (granted Stienberg The Grand 2 is a VSTi but it's so realistic sounding) are notorious for having phasing problems.

Panning isn't the same as stereo width. Like Derivative said.

Anyway. I'm going to go back to mixing. :P

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative Panning is not stereo separation.

I know that. My bad, had it confused.

But stereo seperation is probably the best thing to do in some situations. I do argue that EQ is the first thing you should do. If that doesn't give you the right results, ie fatness goes away, then pan. If that doesn't give you the right result, the you could stereo seperate.

I see stereo seperation as a last resort. But well, that's me.

I think it depends on the sound. Also, most of the EQs I have tried are totally lifeless. I would never use Fruity EQ for any purpose. It can just kill a sound so quickly. Even those Waves Linear Phase EQs are shit in my opinion and they cost a fortune. The only Software EQ I ever tried out that didnt completely destroy the energy of my instruments was Voxengo GlissEQ but I cant afford it until I get paid >____<

I do agree that EQ is important but it is overstated. If you have problems in the mixdown, 90% of the people here will tell you to start EQing things and I just think that is so wrong on so many levels...Its not that EQ is a bad thing (especially with a really good EQ like the voxengo one) but as the old expression goes, too much salt spoils the broth.

I play devil's advocate here because theres alot of people telling you to put more salt in your soup and I'm just telling you flat it out that you dont need that much, if any (provided you have all the right ingredients and those ingredients are quality). Its also going to lead to heart failure later in life.

I think of Amplitude, Frequency and Stereo Width as interdependant. None is more important that the other. You need to juggle all of them to create a sense of 3D space in a mix. That is what we as amateur producers are trying to do. Recreate physical space. You cannot do this adequately in just 2 dimensions (just amplitude and frequency)

Panning looks to be the key if not Stereo seperation.
I'll try 'em.. thanks

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