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Building a Laptop sudio?

Heres my short guide, Come on in! Have one already? Offer some advice!

Im looking to build my first "real" setup as a mobile platform, and ive been stuck in the inevitable loophole of "mac or pc" seeing as how im going back to school, and will most likely major in music/soundengeneering, the most logical choice would be both. But placing my faith in a Mac, and running my applications on something that doesn't have supported drivers seems risky for now, at the least. Am i setting myself up to be stabbed in the back by Steve Jobs, or is a computer that runs OSX and XP becoming a reality?

These are things which i know to look for when i take the plunge in a couple weeks for a couple thousand dollars:

-Core Duo CPU: mac books got 'em, but boot camp doesn't support drivers yet. thinking about waiting a bit, but it seems like it wont be long before XP will run smoothly...

-At LEAST 1 Gb RAM! mac RAM is expensive, so that gets factored in but you can get some from crucial or new egg...

-I personally dont want a 17'er. too big. and we arent looking for video performance, were looking for battery life! (again, the little voice in my head says mac book! mac book!)

-Buy from a major manufacturer: There are some shady small companies that sell laptops for thousands more than what they are worth. While you might not like Dell or IBM/Lenovo for whatever reason, remember that they sell MILLIONS of laptops, so you are getting the most out of your money. If i don't get what i have payed for, i look at it as throwing money down the toilet, because i cant realistically expect a return on this investment! Thats the whole point, though, isn't it?

I see allot of answers like "What programs are you using?" so people can recommend either a mac or windows rig. but with boot camp, mac/pc shouldn't be an issue soon. And it's rumored that with the release of Leopard, your mac will support "switching" between OS's. this isn't a big deal to me. I just want a stable environment to run my Windows apps in.

*Ive read that Intel's Merom (yonah) chips (duo core and 64 bit) can be used to upgrade most current DC chips when they come out. Mac books' CPUs are soldered to the motherboard, however, so no upgrading there...

Don't forget about AMD! AMD has been gaining steadily in market share in the last few years, and have a good reputation for multimedia applications! X2 mobile chips are coming around soon. The Turion 64 chips might be single core, but a decent lappy with a turion will for sure run Vista no problems.

Remember: Vista is just around the corner!

OTOH Vista is STILL just around the corner.

**If someone knows what programs are for sure going to be 64 bit enabled soon; please post them here! Also, if you are running x64 right now, let us know what is in your setup!

For a x64 system, you need all the 64 bit drivers for the equipment you are using, along with an application that supports 64 bit processing, as well as Windows x64 and a 64 enabled CPU. It seems most programs are optimized for multiprocessors now.

Intel's EMT64 and AMD's AMD64 processors are not created equal, but thats a discussion beyond the scope of this guide.


**This is a real good read, and pretty much sums up everything:
http://mixonline.com/state-64bit-computer-040606/

Heres a short breakdown of x64 stuff.

Cakewalk Sonar: (the only one at this time?)

quote:

What features are not supported in SONAR 5 x64 Edition at this time? * ReWire support for 32-bit clients like Project 5 V2, Reason 2, and Fruity Loops * 32-bit DirectX plug-ins * DreamStation DXi2 * MPEX time/pitch stretching. A 64-bit library is not available for the MPEX time/pitch stretching algorithm, so this feature is not supported in SONAR x64. SONAR�s internal time/pitch stretching will be used instead. * Microsoft has yet to provide x64 codecs for the following formats, so they are not yet supported: o MP3 import o Windows Media Video import/export * Apple has yet to release QuickTime for Windows x64, so QuickTime import/export is not yet supported. Note: MPG 1 movie files can be imported.

http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/whitepaper.asp
http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/kb2005282.asp

Reason: no http://www.propellerheads.se/

quote:

Reports show that ReCycle 2.1 is not compatible with computers systems based on 64 bit AMD processors (such as the 64 FX-2), running Windows XP x64 (the 64-bit version of Windows XP). At this point in time there is no workaround. Running the same processor with the regular versions of Windows XP and XP Pro (32-bit) seems to work just fine. We therefore recommend ReCycle 2.1 users not to upgrade to a complete 64 bit system before this problem has been sorted out. Since we are also currently unsure about the nature of the problem, we strongly encourage users to test ReCycle 2.1 on any 64 bit system you plan to purchase, before you buy.

FL Studio: (i wouldnt be expecting x64 or multithreading support anytime soon, apparently just writing the program itself is a miracle)

quote:

FL Studio was developed in Delphi and contains a lot of assembly (machine language), coded tightly to the Pentium CPU. Therefor it's almost impossible to port FL Studio to the Mac OS (or any other OS) without a complete rewrite.

http://forum.e-officedirect.com/for...me=FLStudio_FAQ

Cubase: (im pretty sure x64 processing is NOT supported, sorry, i got distracted by the "fake SX4 letter" in a bunch of different forums)

(and for the linux users, heres some apps!)

and the price...

I see alot of answers like "whats your budget?" just remember that RAM and a fast CPU and a fast HDD are the most important!

as for the audio card:

PCMCIA card helps negate any latency one might get with a USB, or firewire. If im wrong here, someone please correct me, but it seems a paralell device would be better than a serial device!

Im also looking for a laptop with a cardbus/pcmcia slot as well as the new Express Card slot. express slot dsp sound cards are inevitable, imo. you can already get SATAII express cards, and use external drives that are faster than the one in the laptop.

for now im getting an Audigy 2zs (which HAS x64 drivers already), then im upgrading to either a Emu 1616, or the Echo Indigo. The latter two have "DSPs" digital signal processors, that take the load off the CPU, and process their own effects. Thes seem like a MUST for a mobile studio, as laptops are inherently slower...

Heres a short summary of devices with x64 support, which is a good sign that a company is doing their job!

E-mu: yes, but their site was flaking out...

Echo:
http://www.echoaudio.com/Support/FAQ.php#3

quote:

Yes, we are developing x64 drivers for all currently shipping products. This means that all products in the AudioFire, 3G Indigo and Echo24 families will have 64-bit Windows support. We expect to complete 64-bit support during the Summer of 2006.

M-Audio: (just drivers)
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_...undle-main.html
http://www.m-audio.com/news/en_us-267.html

MOTU Mark of the Unicorn:

quote:

All current MOTU interfaces (FireWire, PCI-X, PCI Express, USB 2 audio and USB MIDI) are supported

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/64-bi...e-now-available

okay, enough about x64 compatibility...

other things to consider:

MIDI controller. Theres a plethora of small portables out there. M-audio, for one, offers the Ozonic which acts as an audio interface also...

M-Audio:
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do...oardcontrollers
E-mu:
http://www.emu.com/products/category.asp?category=532
Novation:
http://www.novationmusic.com/productlist.asp
Edirol:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/pr...px?ParentId=114

Some on line retailers:
Audio MIDI
New Egg
Sam Ash
Musicians Friend

some other useful links:
SOS
Harmony Central
Electronic musician
Computer music
Create Digital Music

Headphones: I am spending about $150. no less...
http://www.headfi.org/


i hope my information is accurate, or that i haven't hurt your brain. l8r

A few thoughts:

Turion x2 chips have been out for a few weeks now I believe. http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors...8_13909,00.html

While a small screen size does mean less power drain, it also means a smaller configuration, whichultimately translates to a smaller battery with less cells. Really when looking at notebook life you should consider the milliAmperes * hours rating of the battery, and the projected power use at idle and at full load. Besides which, a larger screen means more real estate for your audio interface. I know one of my biggest complaints with my current setup is that I can't see everything I'm using at the same time simply because of screen "real estate," and this is on my desktop.

Dual core CPUs are projected to be about 80% of the notebook market by the end of this year, yet astonishingly few applications have been written to take advantage of multithreading. In most cases, one core will max out and the other will sit idly by. If you buy a dual core system, you're most likely investing in the future, not in the present.

Keep in mind that while Intel's Core 2 Duo (the sucessor to their current dual core chips for the mobile platform) are socket-compatible with current dual core motherboards, that is, you don't need to buy a new motherboard if you were to upgrade your CPU, a BIOS update is still required, and I'm 95% sure laptop retailers will not support this, as it takes a fair amount of technical expertise on the user's end. HOWEVER, the merom line of chips (a.k.a. core 2 duo) are claimed to have a 20% increase in performance, along with 64-bit processing and little to no change in their thermal envelope.

Also keep in mind that Apple's migration from the PowerPC platform to the x86 platform exposes Apple's consumers to the horrendous line of viruses and general malware already out there. Such a shame too, as PA Semi has designed some excellent chips on par with AMD and Intel processing-wise, but approximately 10 times more energy efficient, if I remember correctly.

Also remember that Intel was supposed to have lowered it's prices for their dual core line yesterday, the 28th. Of course this is per 1000 processors, so we the consumers won't see the effects for a few more weeks.

And don't forget Comdex (Comtex?) in Taiwan on June 6th, I'm expecting some big announcements there that will spark a price war of sorts.



Also, if you look around, you can get excellent deals if you're willing to "whitebook" it. A few weeks ago, I figured out I could get a 15 inch notebook with 2 gigs of DDR2 and a 2GHz dual core laptop for 1200, not including shipping from 3 separate retailers. This setup easily goes for 1400-1700 from the middle-sized companies, and 1800+ from the larger companies.

YAY thanks Tranc3!

I read a guide for Nvida powered laptops where you can just alter the video driver to give unsuported video resolutions, and using a "grid line" or something, you can extend by up to 4-8 desktops. You just flick the mouse over to the next screen, and it displays the adjacent desktop space! And it doesnt hurt performance at all! (One guy @ notebookforums said he used the mod for viewing all his VST's in an audio program. you run out of desktop space QUICK when using these programs, and i desparatley need a hack like this!)

Also, there are several "virtual desktop" programs to give you more "real estate" (Litestep, MSVDM). Having several screens available with the flick of your mouse seems sooooo choice! (like 1 for tracks, 1 for mixer, 2 for VST's) i mean, 17" isnt going to give you THAT much more room..

I cant find any hacks like this for ATi drivers, but im doing some research on this...

When i had my old setup (AMD 1.8 Ghz gaming rig) I had 2 monitors running off of a Gforce 4400, this was tits, but then i moved to a laptop. UGh

who were those retailers?

whats "whitebooking"?

where am i?

srsly, apple has student discounts, but if i can find a decent one for less, ill forgo the macbook...

btw your pm box is full

quote:

Originally posted by jacheatamobits who were those retailers? whats "whitebooking"? where am i? srsly, apple has student discounts, but if i can find a decent one for less, ill forgo the macbook... btw your pm box is full

A whitebook is sort of a DIY notebook, that is, it's a barebones setup (No CPU, RAM, cards, etc...), and you buy (and assemble) the rest. Basically it's the notebook with it's own features (speakers, conenctions, whatever) with the motherboard in it, and nothing else.

For the setup I created for 1200, I started with ASUS' page listing official resellers, and found that some resellers will offer a cheap notebook and CPU, but jack up the prices on the RAM or the hard drive or whatever - except not all resellers jack up the prices on the same thing. So you order the cheap component from one reseller, and (say they overcharge for the RAM), you get the RAM from another place that sells RAM for cheap but sells CPUs for more. If you buy all the components at the same place and have them assemble it, the same configuration ended up costing about 1450, give or take about 50 dollars depending on where you went.

The thing to remember about major notebook retailers like Dell, Lenovo, etc... is that they buy the base notebook from one of about 4 or 5 companies that specialize in selling barebones notebooks, and then put their logo on it, add the rest of the components, and sell it to you for a few hundred more. In IBM's case I believe they used to modify the hardware a bit to make it truly unique, but I have no idea if Lenovo is going to continue this practice. Lenovo has already cast off IBM's name from the notebooks, so this may be an indicator that they're going to reinvent the brand. In Dell's case I'm pretty sure they just add their logo and the necessary components, and nothing else...essentially you're paying for the logo and the warranty.

However, if you buy the base notebook from a reseller that offers warranties, then you're set - assuming said company is still around in a few years. The nice thing about buying from the large companies is that you can be fairly certain your x-year warranty will be honored x years from now, simply because the company will probably still be around.

Of course, that's what was thought of Worldcom and Tyco and Enron and such...but that's another discussion.


About running Mac OSX and Windows, I think it's just a matter of time until someone dual-boots both natively. I could have sworn I saw a HOWTO for installing MAC OSX on an x86 machine a few years ago, before they moved to the x86 architechture. Now that they're running the same chips, the same RAM, the same chipsets as everyone else, it should really be more of a matter of logistics and less an engineering feat. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the LILO or GRUB camp is currently working on a user-friendly method of dual or even triple booting OSX, Windows, and Linux. Assuming it hasn't been done already.

An addendum - for the 1200 dollar system, I was going with an ASUS Z62F, which is only 14 inches in screen size, not 15 as I think I may have stated.

Yah, i forgot what that was called! I just call it "building a computer" i forgot that "whitebooking" hasnt been around for that long...

if you want to spend alot of time looking for deals on the components (which i dont, but will anyways) and have the skill and time to put it together (which i have both) then this is ALWAYS a good idea.

You brought up the warranty issue. Having a "MUTT" for a laptop just means a different warranty for all the different parts, and not one for the whole thing. Also, no replace/repair plan there. But if you can build a computer, you can service any broken parts, right?

You have opened up a door for me that i forgot was there:

i found this guy:
http://www.rjtech.com/

and i could just get the rest of the crap at Newegg!

Oh and:

quote:

Originally posted by Tranc3 A few thoughts: Turion x2 chips have been out for a few weeks now I believe. http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors...8_13909,00.html

nope.

quote:

Shop by Processor: Notebooks with AMD Athlon� 64 X2 Dual-Core Processors

quote:

0 Matches

http://shop.amd.com/us-en/products/3/2.aspx?sid=qsearch

but i did find:

quote:

Q: How much do the AMD Turion 64 X2 mobile technology products cost? A: AMD prices all its products to provide competitive solutions. The AMD Turion 64 X2 mobile technology family ranges from $184 - $354 in 1K units. For more information about pricing, please visit http://www.amd.com/pricing.

?

http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/24/...re-s271-laptop/
http://www.unitedmicro.com/cgi-bin/ntz.cgi?NT3MS1058
http://www.laptoplogic.com/news/detail.php?id=934

It's out there, just try looking a little harder

Here we go, AMD's original press release dated May 17th:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/...~108456,00.html

Also might want to add that you searched for the Athlon 62 X2, which is a desktop processor, not the Turion X2 (Which is not an available option for searching as of yet, since MSI is the only manufacturer with a Turion x2 system on the market as of now).

I'm building a laptop studio atm here's what i'm going to be using.


Macbook Pro(when memrom comes out)
Waves gtr2
Virus TI polar
senn hd650(headphones)


with this setup i will be able to offload synth work to the virus and allow the comp to be used purely for effects(reverbs delays eq's etc). Also the waves gtr comes with a decent DI box for my guitar.

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