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Computer advice

Hi,

I know there are a regular trail of these threads but i could really do with some up-to-date advice on PC specs/Good outlets/Brands for music PC's from the technical minded.

I have just had a funeral for my alienware laptop (accident) which i used for producing, It ran a Pentium P4 3.06ghz HyperThreading with 1 gig of ram.... which was fine running Reason 3, most of the time.

However, I fancy a nice desktop this time.

Im prepared to spend around �1500-�1600..

Im kinda confused with the amount of processers around now with Pentium D, Dual core, Turion, Celeron etc etc....
I can google Specs for the above, but i want to know how you lot rate them for music apps..
Im fancying 2 to 4 gigs of ram btw.

Where and what brand is good to buy from?
I had no problem with alienware, infact it was a damn good computer. Its just they are overpriced, and if i can get something as powerful a few quid less, i will..

I dont fancy building myself and I'm kinda unsure about Macs..


Any help/advice is much appreciated


ta

Hey David,

in my opinion it might still be best to go for a single core processor, though perhaps take the fastest one you van get (e.g. the AMD FX ones). I own an AMD 4600+ X2, though I have my doubts to how useful it is nowadays when almost every program is still running singlethreaded... For example FL Studio, my sequencer, will only use one core, in which case it seems silly to buy an expensive dual core processor for my music if it is only used by half

For RAM I have always been very pleased with my Dual Corsair 1GB PC3200 bars. They aren't the most expensive ones (if you could relate price to quality), though are still very, very reliable. If you'd really want the best of the best though, you could always go for 2 x 2GB Crucial Ballistix PC8000 bars, which will cost you about �1600 in total

I'd also pay attention to the motherboard itself. What I would recommend, if you would go for an AMD, is to go for the "ASUS A8N32 SLI DELUXE". Nothing tips that one for me so far.

Perhaps a good graphics card can also help to get you running two decent LCD monitors at once. Since I have my dual setup, I cannot imagine working without it anymore. The graphics cards have taken a huge leap lately, so you'll be able to pick up a very decent one for a good price already.

Last, but definately not least, you also need a good sound card (unless of course you already have one). My pick for now would either be the Creative X-Fi Elite Pro (bear in mind it it still lacking for professional music production though as it has no real professional outputs), or the Audiophile 192.

I'd also very much advise to get two separate hard drives (personal experience), one to place all your data on, and one for all your programs.


So my picks would be the following (average prices based on my local store):

Motherboard: Asus A8N-SLi32 Deluxe [�180]
Processor: AMD FX64 [�850]
Soundcard: Audiophile 192 [�190]
RAM: 2048 (2x1GB) Corsairs Twinx PC6400 800MHz [�280]
Graphics card: GeForce 7800GTX 256MB [�350] (brand-dependent)

Would get you at about �1850 = +/- �1300

You can even get some more things for this price hehe. Hope this helps you on a bit

// Wim

Hey Icone!

Thanks for the Info, thats exactly what i wanted...

Im fine for a soundcard, i ran an external Edirol ua-5 with my laptop and never had any problem with it, so im gonna stick with it for now..

Theres some interesting points in there, thanks. Thats all pretty pretty much within what i wanted to spend as well.

Hello
Ive just got an idea, if there is website which shows all tests and so on for music producers i mean there is plenty of sites showing all kind of tests of cpus, rams ect but for games, graphics, 3d ... ?

Ive had a nose about, and im kinda struggling to find one outlet that sells all the components in a built tower that Wim reccomended.
This is kind close from www.music-pc.com, weighing in at around �1500 with a few other fixtures and fittings..

Case
Antec SLK3000B Tower case NO Psu �33.31 more

Case Fan
AcoustiFan Case Fan C-120 �5.99 more

Motherboard
Asus A8V Socket 939 Mainboard AGP �57.26 more

Floppy / Card Reader
1.44mb Floppy drive (black)7 in 1 internal card reader with floppy �5.77 more

Hard drive 1
Raptor 74GB 10,000RPM SATA Hard Drive �135.12 more

Hard drive 2
200GB Serial ATA Hard drive �69.03 more

Graphics Card
Radeon 9250SE 128MB dual head 8x AGP �33.78 more

RAM
1GB DDR RAM PC3200 400MHz �79.31 more

RAM 2
1GB DDR RAM PC3200 400MHz �79.31 more

OS
None selectedWindows XP HomeWindows XP Pro �71.97 more

Dual Boot
Dual Boot setup WinXP or Win2k only. �0.00 more

Optical Drive
Black CDRW 52x24x52DVD/CDRW Combo in blackDual Layer DVD-RW DVD-+R 16x �39.99 more

Cpu Cooler
Amd Stock coolerScythe Katana-775 Heatpipe Quiet CoolerScythe Ninja-PLUS Heatpipe Cooler �34.27 more

Processor
Athlon 64 FX57 2.8ghz S939 1024kb �722.54 more

PSU
300w Standard PSUOverhead fan bracket assembly with Fan FTagen 480w easy connect psu �73.44 more

Anybody had any experience with music-pc.com?

quote:

Originally posted by davidjames Processor Athlon 64 FX57 2.8ghz S939 1024kb �722.54 more

Pfft. This is what I would buy, but if you really want to spend silly money, this is much better value than a �720 57. Although you might want to go with socket AM2 for future compatibility.

Ok, Thanks to all who have helped..

I have decided im either going to go for the above or this one from http://www.vantagecomputers.co.uk @ �1642

System Case: Coolermaster Wavemaster Silver Case
Power Supply: 430W TR2 Quiet PSU (19dB)
Motherboard: Asus A8N-SLi SE Motherboard (Skt 939)
Processor: AMD 64-Bit FX-57 (Skt 939)
System Memory: 4Gb DDR400 PC3200 Dual Channel Memory (4x 1Gb)
Hard Drive One: 160Gb Serial ATA300 7200RPM
Hard Drive Two: 80Gb Serial ATA300 7200RPM
Removeable Storage Devices: Floppy Disc Drive
CD Device One: CDRW Drive (52x32x52)
CD Device Two: None Selected
Video Card: GeForce 6200TC 256Mb DDR SILENT +DVI/TV PCI-X
Video Card Two in SLi: None Selected
Audio Device: 6 Channel Audio Integrated
PCI Devices: None Selected
PCI Devices: None Selected
Keyboard & Mouse Set: None Selected
Speakers: None Selected
Monitor: 19 inch TFT AMW Monitor (8ms/DVI)
Operating System: Windows XP Home SP/2 - OEM
Office Software: None Selected
AntiVirus Software: Norton AntiVirus 2006 (OEM 1 Years Update Subscription)
Utilities Software: None Selected
Additional Services: None Selected
System Warranty: Ad-Vantage 5 Years Return to Base Warranty
Additional Support Services: One Week Trial 24/7 Unlimited Telephone Software Support
Build Services: Standard 7 to 10 Working Day Build

Any thoughts, ideas etc?

quote:

Originally posted by Centra Spike Pfft. This is what I would buy, but if you really want to spend silly money, this is much better value than a �720 57. Although you might want to go with socket AM2 for future compatibility.

Hey Centra Spike, thanks for the reply. On this 2nd system there's an option to get the AMD Athlon 64 FX60 Socket 939 2.6GHz 2MB FSB1000 instead of the 57, and save a few pennies. Would this make a noticable deal of difference to performance?

4 GB RAM is overkill imo.

I want your opinion..

Would it not be useful? I can always downsize to 2gb..

32 Bit windows currently has memory management problems with 4gbs.

The FX-57 is a waste of money with Conroe looking to kill it in about 3 weeks time.

Socket 939 is being phased out at the end of this year and replaced with AM-2 which will feature reverse HT for single threaded applications.

quote:

Audio Device: 6 Channel Audio Integrated

No chance.

Also need to know the model and brand of the hard drives and the memory and the CD-RW and the power supply and the efficiency of the power supply. Because some of them are pretty crap.

Hi Derivative, thanks for your help.

The model/brands of the hard drive etc, i really dont know as there is no more information on them other than what i have copied and pasted..
I take it that that is no a great sign?

You seem very clued up, is there a brand/setup you could suggest within the kind of budget im working to?


Thanks

I think Maxtor harddrives are one of the most popular ones, and they have been my drives for whole my life. Couldn't recommend them more, as I never ever had a system crash or let alone harddrive failure with any of them.

I also wouldn't really overdo the RAM thing, as a lot of synths are not-sampled based (which would be the only thing why you'd ever need 4GB of RAM). 2GB of RAM at high speed seem more than enough to me at this time (and you can still upgrade later). For now, you'd better stick with a processor with the highest speed possible.

I don't have a clue about the new AM2 slots though, they're new to me.

Thanks for the input again Wim,

Im going to bear that in mind about the RAM, the only reason i had added that much was because i had read somewhere else on the forums that you should get as much RAM as possible, obviously then, you can get too much..

Im kinda at square 1 again with which processor to go for, now Derivative has cast some doubt over the fx-57, haha..
But if the only reason not to buy one of these is that there is something bigger and better coming out soon, well, i can live with that as this is always going to be the way with computers..

Im going to se how this pans out for a few days, but i could really do with ordering something by next weekend..

ta

Maxtor arent that good. They used to be but...

As for hard drives its really mixed. Low capacity IDE drives to go for would be the Seagate barracudas and the Samsungs as they are generally quiet and operate fairly cool. High capacity IDE drives - Western Digital Caviar 500mb is really quiet and its fast for an IDE drive.

You will probably have heard of the Western Digital Raptors. They are SATA/RAID drives that are very fast but they run hot as hell and are noisy. I personally dislike them but in RAID-01 they are very fast. You just need 4 of them. And they are expensive.

For memory, I would buy Corsair or OCZ. Avoid the value crap and go for an XMS kit with a heatspreader. They arent a whole lot more expensive and you can get down and dirty with memory timings and overclock more reliably provided the people who built your PC didnt lock up the BIOS and prevent you from making changes to it (I hate OEM's that do that).

Powersupply? This is important. Only buy a power supply with a 70% or greater efficiency and from a *reputable* brand such as Enermax. The liberty is a good bet.

Processor? You broadly have 2 choices. Wait for Conroe or go with an AMD AM-2 board and processor. I would recommend a top of the line X2 if you are on a tight budget or an Opti and a massive overclock. Spend the rest on a decent cooling solution.

I regard the FX-57 as a waste of money if you plan on spending that much cash as you can get an equivilant conroe after July 23rd for that money and it will draw less power, run cooler and run faster. The conroe will also overclock insanely well. Much more so than an FX-57 if thats your cup of tea.

-----------------------------------------------

What is more than likely is that you dont have a choice about the brand of components that go into a pre built PC and they will pick the cheapest ones they can get away with.

I would advise building it yourself. It will be cheaper and you will get the components you want but you will have to assemble it and it can be scary if you havent done it before.

-------------------------------------------------

About AM-2.

You will have to bear with me for a second. One of the reasons why the Athlon 64 (K8) beats the living shit out out of the Northwood and Prescott Pentium 4s is that AMD integrated the memory controller onto the CPU. The pipeline on the A64 isnt that long either. This meant pending a branch prediction failure, A64s didnt need a fucking huge amount of Level 2 cache to fall back on. Memory access was obviously faster because it was part of the CPU.

The drawback is that any change to the memory controller would require a new motherboard and a new processor. This is what AM-2 is. And yes this does mean that the next time a new memory standard comes out, you wil lhave to junk your old AMD motherboard and CPU.

AM-2 is for all intents and purposes identical to the current socket 939 A64s except it has a new memory controller and supports DDR2 memory. Intel didnt have to rerelease all their CPUs again to support the new standard because they never put the mem controller onto the CPU in the first place.

Basically there will be little to no performance gain using an AM-2 board/CPU over a 939 board/CPU except for memory access. Its a small difference.

If you already have a 939 board (like me) its not worth upgrading. If you dont have a 939 board and want to go AMD you should get AM-2 as its a teeny bit faster, has better memory management and DDR2 memory is cheaper than DDR1 memory. AM-2 is also rumoured to have core multiplexing. AMD havent said anything on the issue but you may have heard rumours of 'reverse hyper threading'.

Basically, its supposed to multiplex both cores in a dual core CPU and use both cores for single threaded applications. Nobody know how this will work or how effective it will be (if it works at all) but its something to bear in mind and it costs nothing extra. This technology isnt built into existing socket 939 CPUs.

Finally. Conroe.

Conroe is Intel's bid to take the performance crown and its coming out on July 23rd. As a reaction to conroe, AMD consolidated their entire processor lineup and slashed prices on their dual cores up to 50%.

This means you will be able to get an AMD X2 3800+ for $169 on July 24th.

Regardless of whether you will buy Conroe or AM-2 - wait till July 24th before buying anything. When the prices go down, recheck and see what you can afford on your budget. You will be able to get a significantly better PC than you can right now for the same money.

Derivative: The fact that Maxtor isn't good, where did you get this? I'm curious since I have never used anything else - I've had no reason since everything always went smoothly...


Shouldn't everyone be upgrading to an AM2 if they are planning to drop the Socket 939's completely? Seeing it goes so fast, one could get easily afraid of 'upgrading' his system on one particular day... Or I guess that's just the way it goes then?

For example, one could get the AMD FX62 X2 processor, XFX GeForce 7950GX2 512MB, 2GB PC8000 Crucial Ballistix for about �2400 right now - how much of that price would be left in 6 months?

i would also recommend digital village music pc's. a uk company who made my pc. im not sure if i got the cheapest deal. but i am very happy with my pc. i got it turned on and everything worked so smoothly. i have never had a problem with it. check em out...

http://www.dv247.com/dvpc

and they were very helpful over the phone in telling me the facts etc..

Thanks everyone and Derivative for the headache ... Seriously though, it is appreciated.

If i was to wait until the end of the month, i take it it would be a few more weeks before these new Intel core found their way into ready made shiny new towers? I really dont fancy tackling building one myself..
However, if the AMD prices are going to fall sharply, it may be worth the wait.

Im just getting a bit impatient now as ive been without a music pc for a few weeks already.

mm...what do you guys think about this setup:

cpu: Athlon 64 X2 4400+ DualCore 2.2GHz
mobo: DFI LanParty UT nF4 SLI-DR
ram: OCZ Enhanced Latency DDR PC3200 1024MB DualChan Platinum Revision 2
audio: M-Audio Audiophile 24/96
gpu: ATI ALL IN WONDER X600PRO 256MB PCI-E (not sure yet)
hd: Western Digital 250GB SATA-II 16MB 7200RPM WD2500KS
cooler: Zalman CNPS7700-Cu 120MM

(here in Israel it costs around 1000 pounds btw)

quote:

Originally posted by Icone Derivative: The fact that Maxtor isn't good, where did you get this? I'm curious since I have never used anything else - I've had no reason since everything always went smoothly...

Oh its not that they are unreliable or anything. Its just that Seagate and WD just seem to leave Maxtor trailing a little bit in terms of operating temperatures, hard drive noise and speed.

Maxtor hasnt really released anything that can top a Seagate Barracuda for silent fast low capacity IDE. Or a WD Caviar 500gb silent, fast high capacity IDE drive. And Maxtor have nothing that tops the speed of a WD Raptor.

quote:

Shouldn't everyone be upgrading to an AM2 if they are planning to drop the Socket 939's completely? Seeing it goes so fast, one could get easily afraid of 'upgrading' his system on one particular day... Or I guess that's just the way it goes then? For example, one could get the AMD FX62 X2 processor, XFX GeForce 7950GX2 512MB, 2GB PC8000 Crucial Ballistix for about �2400 right now - how much of that price would be left in 6 months?

The only people upgrading to AM-2 will be people that dont have a socket 939 board. If you already have one its seriously not worth it because it offers almost no performance difference. If you have a socket 939 motherboard its not worth selling it to get an AM-2.

AMD's direct competitor to Conroe is K8-L and that isnt scheduled for release until spring 2007. In the meantime, AMD is going to slash prices to try and compete with Intel's shitty old Pentium D dual cores and take some of the sting away from Conroe.

Therefore it would be more prudent to stick with your socket 939 board until K8-L comes out. Or if you dont have one buy a budget AM-2 board now and bag a K8-L a year or 2 down the line.

Either way, dont buy an FX-57 or FX-62. They cost a crazy amount of money and the top end Conroes are all better. Its not even a competition.

If money is no object and you just want an absolute killer machine - get a conroe board and one of the top end conroes. If you have a couple thousand to spend I would still go with a conroe board.

If you are on a strict budget go with AMD AM-2 for this development cycle. You can get an X2 dual core real cheap pretty soon.

That may change when K8-L hits the market in 10 months time. But the conroes are about to ship and they are the best so far.

quote:

Originally posted by ronk mm...what do you guys think about this setup: cpu: Athlon 64 X2 4400+ DualCore 2.2GHz mobo: DFI LanParty UT nF4 SLI-DR ram: OCZ Enhanced Latency DDR PC3200 1024MB DualChan Platinum Revision 2 audio: M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 gpu: ATI ALL IN WONDER X600PRO 256MB PCI-E (not sure yet) hd: Western Digital 250GB SATA-II 16MB 7200RPM WD2500KS cooler: Zalman CNPS7700-Cu 120MM (here in Israel it costs around 1000 pounds btw)

The 24/96 is ok (you can get alot better) but the PC itself is a shit hot production rig. The board is good. The processor is good. The memory is good. Quiet HD. Cant think of anything else except to say get an enermax powersupply. They rock. Also make sure the case looks nice (drool SUGO SG-01) or you will be looking at a fugly box for the next few years ^__________^

quote:

Originally posted by Derivative If you are on a strict budget go with AMD AM-2 for this development cycle. You can get an X2 dual core real cheap pretty soon.

How about this mate, it seems to tick most of the boxes? http://www.cube247.co.uk/acatalog/EclipseST6.html

That is indeed a good PC. But you can get all of that alot cheaper if you build it yourself and buy your own case.

I can build a Shuttle PC with similar specs to that for less money. And Shuttle cases are expensive. If that PC came with a monitor it would be worth it. Because it doesnt, I have to say its way overpriced for what it is. It doesnt even have a soundcard so you will have to spend more.


-------------------------------------------

Also bear in mind the X2s cant compete with the FX-57. But they are a hell of a lot cheaper. They will be cheaper still come July 23rd. So hold out if you can.

I thought I was cashing in on Conroe's launch by sinking 300 quid into a new AMD A64 3200+ (single core) rig. That was about a month ago. Exactly 6 days after I received all the parts in the mail, AMD announced up to 50% price reductions on their entire processor line up on July 23rd

I suck at predicting the market. Now I am trying to find a way to get rid of my single core 3200+ and I am going to buy an X2 3800+ on July 24th.

Just looking at overclockers.co.uk you can get all of this:

AMD Athlon X2 4200 Retail / Asus A8N-SLi Premium / 2GB Geil PC3200 Dual Channel Kit - Bundle (BU-049-OK) [�485.10]

Zalman CNPS9500-AM2 Aero Flower (Socket AM2/939/754) CPU Cooler (HS-021-ZA) [�35.19]

Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound (3.5g) (AC-000-AC) [�6.99]

Sony DRU-820A 16x16 DVD�RW Dual Layer ReWriter - Retail (CD-052-SO) [�35.84]

Enermax Noisetaker 485W EG495AX-VE(G) SFMA ATX2.0 PSU (CA-007-EN) [�58.69]

Antec P180 Advanced Super Midi Tower Case - No PSU (Silver) (CA-039-AN) [�89.24]

Asus ATI Radeon EAX-X1600 XT SILExtreme NT/TVD 256MB GDDR3 AVIVO TV-Out/DVI (PCI-Express) - Retail (GX-090-AS) [�105.69]

Western Digital Caviar SE16 500GB 5000KS SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM (HD-075-WD) [�171.49] ~(check out the silentpcreview.com review)


for �988.23

Spend the rest on some molex cables and you have a fairly good rig right there. Its 939 not AM-2 though but you should be able to get an AM-2 bundle for the same money. If you can, go for it.

This machine will overclock well. It will also be alot quieter. The hard drive is quieter, the CPU cooler is quieter. The graphics card has no moving parts and no fans so it is totally silent. The power supply is quality and has a quiet fan.

The hard drive gives you double the capacity. The graphics card is faster. The case looks fucking cool.

If a 250gb drive is enough for you, and you dont mind having a fugly case, you can save a hell lot of money. Over �100 which you can sink into a soundcard.

This doesnt even apply after the X2 price cuts. You can cut another �100 off the price on July 24th. At least.

With that money you can almost buy an E-MU 1212M. Bonus!

ok mate, thanks for you advice in this thread..

Bearing in mind though i was using a Pentium p4, 3ghz HT, the X2 should be still able to eat that for breakfast?

And i could still upgrade sometime in the future, as long as i can work comfortably for now, i dont think i can get through a few more weeks without my music.

This thread was eatin at me since i seen some of yous post for him to buy the FX Model CPUs.
If you want to save money and still get really good(good enough for what you'll need to do) then DONT BUY FX. It's serious a waiste of money when you have CPUs like the new AM2 CPUs/motherboards. Even something around the 64bit 3500+ and up can be good. Dont forget AMDs numbers read different from Intels speeds. So a 64bit 3000+ Venice AMD cpu @ 1.8ghz runs somewhere around i think 2.2 or maybe better of a Intel equivalent 2.2ghz cpu. Not just that, it all depends on the amount of L1 and L2 cache on the CPUs. So dont only look @ the MHZ speed.

What i would buy if i could afford ( and probably will middle of july )would be AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Windsor 2000MHz,Key words to look at are...
L1 Cache: 128KB+128KB
L2 Cache: 2 x 512KB
HT 2000MHz ( wich would now be fully used with lower latency issues due to the AM2 )
Operating Frequency 2.2Ghz.
Dual Cored @ price $358


A little cheaper deal of the X2s and still really good buy ( Difference is the .2ghz) would be...
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Windsor 2000mhz @ $297
I'd go for the 2nd one, Processor wont make that big of difference and you can overclock these things dont forget. I heard of a few going up to 3ghz +.

For single core, the major diff would be um single core, and lower l1+L2 cache...
and something like this...
AMD Athlon 64 3800+ Orleans 2000MHZ HT AM2
l1=64k+64kb
l2=512kb
operating speed=2.4ghz
Price=$145
Sweet for the price!

Then there's the 3500+ single core for a tad less...

AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Orleans 2000MHz HT Socket AM2 Processor

L1 Cache: 64KB+64KB
L2 Cache: 512KB
Multi-Core: Single-Core
Operating Frequency: 2.2GHz
Price=$114.99
Difference is just .2ghz from the 3800+ single core above.

You'll be happy with any 4 of these i'm sure. Just concentrate on Memory after you chose your motherboard/cpu combo for optimal speeds.
Less something newer comes out with in the next few weeks before i purchase. One of these ima buy for serious music production and gaming.



Btw, The latest AM2 now allows AMD to use DDR2 more more better,Intel was havin probs with it because of latency issues with memory controllers on the 32bit motherboards, turned out to be only small performance boost. With 64bit AM2 motherboards and the latest AM2 CPUs, that error has been fixed and will be a Goooood advantage over previous first released AM2s and Intels DDR2. I'd pass up a 939 socket for these cpus deff!

Still, 939 is good stuff.

Anyhow, imho go with something around the 64bit 3800+ or higher.
Cheers.

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