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Trying my hand at vocal trance

I'm trying my hand at using Sonar's V-Vocal to create some vocals for my music and while at it I thought I'd try a bit harder on mixing using just the audio tracks rather than using the soft synths straight. . So on this track I've got a bunch of samples and run them through to see if I can make them fit. I took the frozen audio from a Project 5 project and dragged them into sonar to have a go at "audio" only mixing using just E.Q, Compression and levels.

So here's the result so far, still working on it, look for "Do you love me ? " at :

http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/...0&content=music

I'd love to know what you think, particularly on the mix and the vocals, but anything else either....

Ta Andy

Just a wee note to say I've updated this a little since first uploading. It didn't help that the first mix was in mono by mistake !

Andy

Sorry, but that was horrible.

I think it�s interesting! Maybe it�s to mutch in it, make it sounds a bit mess. But I like the vocal! Keep it up!


Takere!

Akia

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Sorry, but that was horrible.

Ok!

Can you tell me what you found so horrible ? I'll not learn to do better otherwise !

Ta

Andy

My apologies for not giving you constructive criticism, but I felt that there was too much to comment.

I�ll give you a brief explanation of what I personally think is bad about this track.

1. It is not trance. At best it�s psy-trance, but it sounds more like something experimental.
2. Timing sounds wrong on the bass/acid lead.
3. Harmonies are all wrong. Vocal doesn�t fit at all.
4. It sounds like it�s made with pre made loops.
5. Bass at 1:00 makes the track sounds muddy.
6. Breakdown sounds improvised, and the timing is all wrong again. Not to mention the bad harmonies.
7. Why does it build down after the breakdown?
8. Around 3:00 you mix in some ambient loops or something. It does not fit in.
9. You have to different harmonies running on top of each other after 8.
10. Overall sound is really muddy.

There�s not structure or theme in the song. It sounds like you have got a bunch of loops and decided to use them all.
If you don�t use a good sequencer, I recommend you get one fast.
I saw something about Project 5. That�s a starter sequencer.
Try out FL Studio, Reason or Ableton Live.
Don�t use loops with melodies. Loops are O.K. for percussion and some ambient sounds, NOT for melodies.

Try reading about music production. Also, try to find out what defines the music style you�re trying to make music in. If you want to produce mainstream trance, listen to Ti�sto, Armin van Buren, Paul van Dyke, Ferry Corsten and try to replicate the song structure of their hits. You�ll get an idea of how trance is supposed to be made.

That�s all I have to say for now.
Good luck producing. Skills comes with time.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz My apologies for not giving you constructive criticism, but I felt that there was too much to comment.

No problem I know what you mean...

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 1. It is not trance. At best it�s psy-trance, but it sounds more like something experimental.

Sorry I can't help crossin genres, perhaps I'll hit on something new

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 2. Timing sounds wrong on the bass/acid lead.

Hmm, I'll look at that, not sure how though the midi is locked solid

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 3. Harmonies are all wrong. Vocal doesn�t fit at all.

Ok, thats probably fair, this was the bit I was experimenting with

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 4. It sounds like it�s made with pre made loops.

Nope, there is one drum loop that comes in at around 3:00 minutes, all the other stuff (apparently to my shame) is made be me

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 5. Bass at 1:00 makes the track sounds muddy.

Mud is something I've been strugglung with for years. I think I've got a major monitoring problem thats making it worse ATM. I am trying to clean it up ....

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 6. Breakdown sounds improvised, and the timing is all wrong again. Not to mention the bad harmonies.

Harmonies I'll grant you, but why do you think there are timing problem ?

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 7. Why does it build down after the breakdown?

OK, an artistic decision you don't like, fair enough, perhaps more build is needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 8. Around 3:00 you mix in some ambient loops or something. It does not fit in.

Nope, just the drum loop.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz 9. You have to different harmonies running on top of each other after 8. 10. Overall sound is really muddy.

Both good points I know I need to work on. thanks for the comments so far.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz I saw something about Project 5. That�s a starter sequencer. Try out FL Studio, Reason or Ableton Live.

Hmmm, thats my lack of talent, not the software !

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Don�t use loops with melodies. Loops are O.K. for percussion and some ambient sounds, NOT for melodies.

So are you saying that perhaps I'm repeating too much in the melody and need more variation ? If so that's perhaps a fair comment.

Again, thanks for the feedback, it really is appreciated even if this reply perhaps xcomes across as a little self defensive !

many thanks
Andy

[/QUOTE]

The quality of the drum programming did not match the overall sound quality. I therefore assumed you used a lot of loops. Also the way some of the instruments entered the track made it seem like they were waveform loops slapped into the sequencer. Sorry about that.
What software do you use?

The point with breakdown in trance is to build up energy and then releasing it all directly after the breakdown. After the breakdown you play your main hook, lots of drums/percussion and also introduce some new instrument if possible.
I have my own way of arranging my trance tracks, but it doesn�t break so much from the mainstream arranging that it differ from the genre, like yours�.

I don�t mean to be rude, but I have gotten _really_ picky when it comes to music. I almost hate myself for being so picky. I can�t get my tracks done because I always find something wrong with my sound. I�ll have to go into the thinking box and make sure I realize it�s stupid so I can get some songs done.
Just hang in there and remember to read about music production. Try recreating a professionally made track from scratch. Take your time.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz The quality of the drum programming did not match the overall sound quality. I therefore assumed you used a lot of loops. Also the way some of the instruments entered the track made it seem like they were waveform loops slapped into the sequencer. Sorry about that. What software do you use?

In this instance it was created in Project 5 using a wide array of softsynths which where bounced down to audio tracks (not loops). These where then dragged in to Sonar 5 (which could have caused the "waveform loops slapped" perhaps, wonder how to fix that ?) for final mixdown. Looking at the waveform I think I've rather overcooked it !

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Just hang in there and remember to read about music production. Try recreating a professionally made track from scratch. Take your time.

I'm trying, I'm trying ! One day perhaps.

Andy

Try using another sequencer.

FL Studio
Reason
Cubase (advanced)
Ableton Live

Try out the demo versions.
The software you're currently using offers limitations.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Try using another sequencer. FL Studio Reason Cubase (advanced) Ableton Live Try out the demo versions. The software you're currently using offers limitations.

Sorry I really don't want to get into a sequencer war here, but what limitations ?

Andy

It's a starter sequencer. If you're comfortable with the UI and the work flow, I suggest trying out Cubase. It's very similar.

The limitation with Project 5 is that it lacks many of the advanced features you'll find in other sequencers. I'm not saying Project 5 is a bad choice, but if you want to produce at a higher level you need to upgrade or get very creative.

I don't know how much you make from scratch, but using pre made melodies and patterns is not good.
How old are you really? I don't know how much age has to do with producing, but you learn things all the time.
I believe that a intermediate sequencer will allow you to gain production skills faster. FL Studio has a lot of tutorials available. Many of them features production-techniques.

Try finding someone at your own level and team up. That's what I did and it helped me a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Try using another sequencer. FL Studio Reason Cubase (advanced) Ableton Live Try out the demo versions. The software you're currently using offers limitations.

Of course, no mention of Sonar. I don't get it.

Can someone explain to me why Cakewalk products are rarely mentioned in the forum? I would like a good explanation of why this is.

Off topic... Take it to the production forum.

But anyways.

Odd... Haven't thought about it before now.
I've tried it once, and didn't like it. The UI is really messy and outdated.
I also don't think it gives a proper "bang for the buck". $800 for the producer version... Cubase SX3 goes for $500.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Off topic... Take it to the production forum.

I did

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=362501

They have special deals all the time. You shouldn't have to spend that much on it!

@ Corteoz

Just to keep the thread off topic a little longer. From the Cakewalk Website

quote:

$349.00 SONAR 5 Producer Upgrade for Home Studio, Project5, Pro Audio, Guitar Tracks Pro, Kinetic, and Music Creator Customers

How much is kinetic?. So for roughly $450.00 you can get Sonar 5 Producer Edition (with currently an offer to upgrade to Sonar 6 for free) and you also get Kinetic thrown in to the bargain. Cakewalk have some pretty good offers if you already own one of their products, it doesnt really matter which one.

Sonar and Cubase are on a par with each other IMO. Cubase is not without its problems. Neither is Sonar perfect either.

As to project 5, there are very few limitations from a soft synth workstation point of view. Its also a very intuitive compositional tool. Its built for workflow and as such throws off many of the contraints that trap the traditional sequencers (and does things completely different). Its weakness is working with audio which it can record but not edit. Having spent some time with Ableton Live as well. I would rate it similarly to that.

P5 and Live share many similarities, Live works on more performance basis, P5 works on more compositional. Live has more strengths (a lot more) when it comes to audio. P5 has a better workflow and has some fantastic midi editing features and also features a few excellent softsynths to get you going. Velocity is a more than capable drum sample, npulse can get some good sounds, Dimension is, to put it mildly a fantastic sampler, and psynII is no slouch either. (its also available for about 99$ as an upgrade to Sonar users on occasion)

If you want some more examples of Project 5 only tracks have a listen to the tracks in my signature.

@ Corteoz

Just to keep the thread off topic a little longer. From the Cakewalk Website

quote:

$349.00 SONAR 5 Producer Upgrade for Home Studio, Project5, Pro Audio, Guitar Tracks Pro, Kinetic, and Music Creator Customers

How much is kinetic?. So for roughly $450.00 you can get Sonar 5 Producer Edition (with currently an offer to upgrade to Sonar 6 for free) and you also get Kinetic thrown in to the bargain. Cakewalk have some pretty good offers if you already own one of their products, it doesnt really matter which one.

Sonar and Cubase are on a par with each other IMO. Cubase is not without its problems. Neither is Sonar perfect either.

As to project 5, there are very few limitations from a soft synth workstation point of view. Its also a very intuitive compositional tool. Its built for workflow and as such throws off many of the contraints that trap the traditional sequencers (and does things completely different). Its weakness is working with audio which it can record but not edit. Having spent some time with Ableton Live as well. I would rate it similarly to that.

P5 and Live share many similarities, Live works on more performance basis, P5 works on more compositional. Live has more strengths (a lot more) when it comes to audio. P5 has a better workflow and has some fantastic midi editing features and also features a few excellent softsynths to get you going. Velocity is a more than capable drum sample, npulse can get some good sounds, Dimension is, to put it mildly a fantastic sampler, and psynII is no slouch either. (its also available for about 99$ as an upgrade to Sonar users on occasion)

If you want some more examples of Project 5 only tracks have a listen to the tracks in my signature.

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz I saw something about Project 5. That�s a starter sequencer. Try out FL Studio, Reason or Ableton Live.

While I respect the opinion of Corteoz and the fact that he took the time to make many comments (most of which were not only valid but contstructive) I just wanted to rebut the preceding quote. Perhaps Corteoz isn't aware of the evolution Project5 has seen. It's hardly a STARTER package. It is most definitely in the same arena as Reason and Live (and in fact, it is a culmination of both of these now).

Granted, it's no ProTools or Logic, but cmon...let's be fair. Corteoz is obviously biased and I just wanted to reiterate that there are many artists that have had some degree of success working entirely in Project5. I just signed a few tracks to a label myself, and I only use P5. It depends what you put into something...if it seems like only a starter sequencer to you then you've only put a 'starting' effort into it.

Just my 2cents. And I loved this track AndyC! Many points were bang on in the critique though, and I'd say that taking much of this advice would make for some great psy-trance!

Good input!

I tried a demo of the first release of P5. I believe it was 1.0.
I was not at all impressed. The workflow did not suit my needs and the whole UI seemed limiting. I must admit that I may have pre judged the software, but what I've read of reviews and based on what I experienced when trying the demo, it didn't feel like a pro sequencer. Well, I've probably just been an offer to "confirmation bias". I'm very open to others opinions, and I'll try out P5 2.0 if I get the chance just to see if I'm missing anything.

I was also trying to make a point out of a tool is what you make out of it. I think every artist needs to find a sequencer they feel at home in. I did so in FL Studio.

@R2Project: Try some of the other sequencers. Download the demo versions. See if any of them fits your needs better.
If you still think P5 is the right tool for you, try getting to know it a lot better and tweak and fiddle around with every control there is.
Then you'll probably learn a lot of new things that'll help you produce better. Try doing the arranging inside P5 instead of exporting to Sonar. That way you might get rid of bad timing.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2122

Have a look at the video on this page to get a small handle on the improvements that V2 brought. Project 5 does suffer from the V1 release. Although you see in the video that its billed as a live performance program I would say its not up to the same standard as Live in this respect. However its midi editing workflow is far superior to every other DAW program Ive worked with.

If you like what you see in the video you can get the demo from the cakewalk page. The on street price has just been announced to have been dropped to $199 and it has a major update on the way (many of the changes being customer driven). I think that this should bring it up to date. Dont let your V1 prejudice get in the way though.

That video makes me want to upgrade to it; however, I just spent $200 on Sonar 5 Studio - I just couldn't pass up the August deal that was going on. Get that and you get Sonar 6 for free when it comes out. Just too hard not to pass up.

We should probably post that video and take the discussion over to the Production Studio forum. I will post it over there...

$99 upgrade for you ($198 with dimension pro)

Good call. I've never tried FL for the same reason you didn't like P5, Cort! I thought, with a name like Frooty Loops I'd rather spring for good sequencer then buy something that sounds like a sugar cereal. The GUI of FL looks tremendous. I even went so far as to tell the Cakewalk design team that the new P5v2 interface was cold and bland, even though much more practical. If you recall, version 1 had a black background which was quite cool.
Anyways... I still think for dance/trance Project5 is 'the' best application/sequencer out there. It lets you play LIVE, it lets you play third party synths and it lets you be creative 'right outta the box'. It takes some experience to get the same 'compressed, radio-ready' sound out of its drum kits then Reason or FL, but I really believe it is MORE feature packed then any other one application.

ANdyC...sorry for the hijack...enjoy the free 'bump'!

Apologies, this should have been posted a couple of hours ago, forgot to press send. Silly me !

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz @R2Project: Try some of the other sequencers. Download the demo versions. See if any of them fits your needs better.

Actually I have tried other sequencers, an earlier version of Fruity, Orion, Cubase. We've got a Logic and Pro Tools L.E system downstairs. Still prefer P5 and Sonar

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz If you still think P5 is the right tool for you, try getting to know it a lot better and tweak and fiddle around with every control there is.

I think most people who know me will agree I actually know P5 inside and out, hope you don't think that's a boast! I've been using it since verison 1 came along. Even written a tutorial on it for "Computer Music" magazine. I admit that doesn't help on the musical side though !

quote:

Originally posted by Corteoz Try doing the arranging inside P5 instead of exporting to Sonar. That way you might get rid of bad timing.

Now this is interesting ! I normally do do all the mixing inside P5, in this case I was experimenting with using Sonar, first off for it's V-Vocal capabilities and secondly so I could use it's advanced bussing. I was also hitting a major CPU wall with 40 odd tracks of softsynths going in P5 and simply couldn't add any more EQ, compression or anything else. Most tracks where frozen so at that point I thought, why not try in the audio domain only.

Now either I've made a mistake with placing the audio in the Sonar, certainly possible, or there is a more serious problem. Corteoz, or someone, I'd really appreciate it if you could point out a timing problem so I can go examine it and see where the trouble is.

Once again thansk to everyone for the opinions, just hope I'm not coming off as a dick or anything !

Peace,
Andy

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