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Interesting articles on the vinyl vs. digital debate

IMO

Link: Why vinyl can't survive

Link: Vinyl will survive

And most interestingly the discussion in the forum (don't know if u need to be a member to see this):

Link: Comments

I am neither a DJ or biased towards either side of this argument, but enjoy hearing people's opinions and found these articles worth the read

someone posted this in the dj booth

www.tranceaddict.com/forums/showthr...threadid=365644

i actually agree with most of that the bit about ableton is interesting

ah
i don't venture in there too often

quote:

Like Marshall McLuhan said in the sixties, the medium is the message. It�s the nature of the medium itself, rather than the information disseminated by it, that has the greater influence on society. It was radical idea at the time, but forty years later, it�s still being taught in classrooms.

The only reason vinyl still exists is because people have spent loads of money and time on their vinyl collections. It's a fetish.

We all know that "better" is subjective. Vinyl does not sound "better" than digital, just like softsynths aren't always worse than hardware. It's just subjective difference.

We get used to something, and we become too close-minded to expand our horizons, especially when time and money are involved. This is why I feel sad for DJs who aren't willing to adapt with the times and use both vinyl AND digital... at least until the technology completely envelopes vinyl and turns it into another casette tape.

ugh

digital is inevitable

vinyl can try to heal itself, but it will die soon.

what can vinyl do that digital can't?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby Vinyl does not sound "better" than digital.

I know you said it's subjective, but i disagree. Vinyl sounds better than CD/Digital, and is supported by so many audiophiles it's bordering on fact.

However, I think the whole ableton thing is good and will only make things more interesting.

What I would like to see though is in about 8 years, i kind of vinyl rennaisance...

I really don't understand why people care. Use what you want to use, let other people use what they want to use. You're not better than someone for sticking with vinyl, and you're not better than someone for progressing with technology and using CDJs/Ableton/Timecode Software.

Simple.

The second article was a sappy moral justifcation. It was propaganda, pure and simple. It eschewed real fact and appealed to what Shibby rightly terms a fetish. Both authors mention the sexyness of vinyl, and that is what a fetish is, in no fewer words.

I was convinced by the first article and bored by the second.

quote:

Originally posted by JuB jUb I know you said it's subjective, but i disagree. Vinyl sounds better than CD/Digital, and is supported by so many audiophiles it's bordering on fact.

It's psychological. Honestly, I'll trust science before I trust some fuck who could just as easily say "there is a difference" as he could wipe his ass. I have yet to see empirical proof that any human can tell the difference.

Furthermore most vinyls these days are made from a digital master anyway, so any difference that the audiophiles could discern is moot.

Now, having said all this, I admit that I like vinyl. You could say that I've succumbed to the fetish, and maybe I have, but I don't let it control me.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex The second article was a sappy moral justifcation. It was propaganda, pure and simple. It eschewed real fact and appealed to what Shibby rightly terms a fetish. Both authors mention the sexyness of vinyl, and that is what a fetish is, in no fewer words. I was convinced by the first article and bored by the second. It's psychological. Honestly, I'll trust science before I trust some fuck who could just as easily say "there is a difference" as he could wipe his ass. I have yet to see empirical proof that any human can tell the difference. Furthermore most vinyls these days are made from a digital master anyway, so any difference that the audiophiles could discern is moot. Now, having said all this, I admit that I like vinyl. You could say that I've succumbed to the fetish, and maybe I have, but I don't let it control me.

heh, I had a whole post written up for him, and you basically summed it up for me.

Music is definitely psychological; it really is all an illusion, and trends in technology affect it, whether it be vinyl or over-compression of today's music, etc.

If you play the same track on 10,000 different speaker system models, you will hear 10,000 variations of that track, however subtle (or often not subtle at all).

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby The only reason vinyl still exists is because people have spent loads of money and time on their vinyl collections. It's a fetish. We all know that "better" is subjective. Vinyl does not sound "better" than digital, just like softsynths aren't always worse than hardware. It's just subjective difference. We get used to something, and we become too close-minded to expand our horizons, especially when time and money are involved. This is why I feel sad for DJs who aren't willing to adapt with the times and use both vinyl AND digital... at least until the technology completely envelopes vinyl and turns it into another casette tape.

You're right...to an extent....it's not that people are unwilling to change, but more likely that the concept of DJing is being "grandfathered" in...because when you've spent your whole life studying one artform to fanatic extremes, its hard to give up all thbose skills just because a better one came around. All those years, and all that practise goes wasted. The motorcycle is a far faster and superior vehicle, yet people still ride bikes.

I cutnpaste what I said in this thread here:

"The reason why most DJs stop playing vinyl is generally because they were never very good at playing vinyl in the first place. Ergo, they don't miss it when they switch to something else, and the new equipment probably gives them some added skills and techniques that they didn't have the aptitude to accomplish with vinyl anyway, so it's a step up for them to be better DJs.

REAL vinyl disc jockeys who have plied their trade for years and are exceptionally good at what they do will still cling to the artform. After spending that much time practising and honing your personal flavour on a specific aparatus, would you want to immediately throw it all away?

That is why you see trance and house DJs flocking to digital, because it neither disrupts nor interferes with the way they DJ. But I have yet to see one hip hop DJ carry around a laptop and Ableton."

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex It's psychological. Honestly, I'll trust science before I trust some fuck who could just as easily say "there is a difference" as he could wipe his ass. I have yet to see empirical proof that any human can tell the difference.

Actually, there is a difference, and if you would sit down for a moment and listen, you can hear it: The truth is there is a low-end feedback humm coming from the decks to the mixer that creates a sort of "warmth" or lo-fi feel to the sound. Digital decks don't have this, so feel much more pristine, sharp and clearer. And also, as vinyl degrades with playing, it's never in perfect condition. It's smoothed and muddied around the edges, giving it an additional appeal. Most clubs today have vinyl and CD decks set up, with DJs being makeshift hybrids, using both digital and analog decks, hopping back and forth from vinyl to CDs all night long, I can tell in an instant, from across the room, sitting at the bar having a drink, at any point in the night whether the music is playing is coming from a digital or analog source.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur You're right...to an extent....it's not that people are unwilling to change, but more likely that the concept of DJing is being "grandfathered" in...because when you've spent your whole life studying one artform to fanatic extremes, its hard to give up all thbose skills just because a better one came around. All those years, and all that practise goes wasted. The motorcycle is a far faster and superior vehicle, yet people still ride bikes. I cutnpaste what I said in this thread here: "The reason why most DJs stop playing vinyl is generally because they were never very good at playing vinyl in the first place. Ergo, they don't miss it when they switch to something else, and the new equipment probably gives them some added skills and techniques that they didn't have the aptitude to accomplish with vinyl anyway, so it's a step up for them to be better DJs. REAL vinyl disc jockeys who have plied their trade for years and are exceptionally good at what they do will still cling to the artform. After spending that much time practising and honing your personal flavour on a specific aparatus, would you want to immediately throw it all away? That is why you see trance and house DJs flocking to digital, because it neither disrupts nor interferes with the way they DJ. But I have yet to see one hip hop DJ carry around a laptop and Ableton."

Yeah, I kinda get what you are saying and it is true. But a lot of hip-hop dj's are using cd's since the Vinyl mode on cd turntables reflects that of a turntable pretty closely.

And I and am sure many others can say that going from vinyl to cd is very very easy. I find mixing and beatmatching on cd's to be a lot easier then mixing and beatmatching with vinyl.

I really don't see myself getting rid of my vinyl or turtables, ever. Like you said, I have put way too much time and money into it to just get rid of it like that. And that is probably the main reason why this discussion comes up because those who have vinyl are already biased towards the digital route. You can see that in almost every dj, even when they do make the switch. But I don't think it is smart not to adapt to everything available if you want to take dj'ing seriously because digital is already a big part of the scene, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by idoru I really don't understand why people care. Use what you want to use, let other people use what they want to use. You're not better than someone for sticking with vinyl, and you're not better than someone for progressing with technology and using CDJs/Ableton/Timecode Software. Simple.

quote:

Originally posted by idoru I really don't understand why people care. Use what you want to use, let other people use what they want to use. You're not better than someone for sticking with vinyl, and you're not better than someone for progressing with technology and using CDJs/Ableton/Timecode Software. Simple.

Actually, it's not simple. If you intend to play out in a club, lounge or whatever and show up with a bag of records and all you have available are cd turntables you are screwed. Sure, it is simple if you only intend to play at home or gigs where you use your own equipment but if not then don't be upset when you can't play out somewhere because they don't have the equipment that you are used to.

Further to all this, I think there's some romanticism about vinyl. The DJ scratching and handling records on Tech 12s is an iconic image, the thing most people associate with the word "DJ". It's like dance music's guitar- it gives more of a performance and an image to the jock, almost like pulling off a killer scratch trick is on par with a guitarist pulling off a brilliant guitar solo.

Everyone owns a laptop, everyone has CDs and everyone has MP3s. They aren't very exotic. When a DJ is sat behind a laptop using Ableton or whatever, no matter how clever or inventive they're being, they're just a bloke sat at a computer, clicking a mouse. Not much of an image, is it? Vinyl lets them look and feel like someone who is part of a dark art- someone who's mastered something the crowd can't go home and find. There's no history to a laptop.

quote:

Originally posted by DOOMBOT Actually, it's not simple. If you intend to play out in a club, lounge or whatever and show up with a bag of records and all you have available are cd turntables you are screwed. Sure, it is simple if you only intend to play at home or gigs where you use your own equipment but if not then don't be upset when you can't play out somewhere because they don't have the equipment that you are used to.

I think he meant that it is simple from the crowd's point of view... at least it is for me. Sure there are lots of people in the audience that claim they "prefer" vynils because they sound "better" however only a rather small, very tiny percentage of that crowd can actually tell the difference between vynils and cd's for instance. I for one can not "hear" the difference, therefore it is simple for me.

quote:

Originally posted by movingincircles what can vinyl do that digital can't?

Survive a hard drive crash.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Survive a hard drive crash.

cds get affected by hard drive crashes?

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra cds get affected by hard drive crashes?

CDR's failing isn't all that uncommon.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Actually, there is a difference, and if you would sit down for a moment and listen, you can hear it: The truth is there is a low-end feedback humm coming from the decks to the mixer that creates a sort of "warmth" or lo-fi feel to the sound. Digital decks don't have this, so feel much more pristine, sharp and clearer. And also, as vinyl degrades with playing, it's never in perfect condition. It's smoothed and muddied around the edges, giving it an additional appeal. Most clubs today have vinyl and CD decks set up, with DJs being makeshift hybrids, using both digital and analog decks, hopping back and forth from vinyl to CDs all night long, I can tell in an instant, from across the room, sitting at the bar having a drink, at any point in the night whether the music is playing is coming from a digital or analog source.

The connection from my laptop to my stereo makes a feedback hum, and warm, lo-fi muddiness can just as easily be acheived in the production stage as it is after a vinyl is aged. Besides, the notion of a song that has been worn down and degraded being superior to the producer's intended degree of fidelity seems counter to the autonomy of artistic expression.

------------------------------------------

To be honest, the large scale move to digital will be good for the art of DJing. It will bring virtuosity back to the performance of the medium while people who DJ for the sole purpose of stringing music together are no longer diluting the talent. Because I won't call for the end of vinyl; I recognize it's use as its own art form. I just say that in regards to common playback, the differences in the two media are negligable, at best, so why continue to treat digital with such vitriol?

quote:

Originally posted by JuB jUb Vinyl sounds better than CD/Digital, and is supported by so many audiophiles it's bordering on fact.

You'll need a very expensive turntable, to prove it.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex The connection from my laptop to my stereo makes a feedback hum

Everything produces a feedback hum. But an analog feedback humm is warmer, louder, better, and more noticeable. And great for dancing.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex , and warm, lo-fi muddiness can just as easily be acheived in the production stage as it is after a vinyl is aged.

Yeah, but it's quantized and rigid. Not fluent and natural. It's like the difference between a live drummer and a drum machine. A machine is perfect; it makes no mistakes. And that takes the human element completely out of the music process....the little off-time beats and flaws and errors--they're gone. That doesn't make the drum machine better, especially when the argument is that music is supposed to evoke an emotion and appeal to humanity, so why would you willingly want to strip the music of this esthetic?

It's like the old Japanese parable about how an orange with an ugly brown spot on it is better than a perfect, spherical, unblemished orange...the reasoning being is because it is THE ONLY orange with that brown spot on it. That makes it unique; an individual, something that separates it from all the other oranges. But a perfect orange? ...there's a million of those. So what.

If perfection is what we desired out of music, than 90% of the music today would not exist, because it came about because of accidents and mistakes at the production and manufacturing level, not because they were planned and thought-out ahead of time. The 303 and the 808--two of the most heralded pieces of equipment in electronic music history--were fucking abominations to the music they were trying to make....abortions to all musicians everywhere. Didn't work, shitty sound, wavered off key....absolute crap. But someone somewhere took a look at those gross errors and saw them as features.

The point is: More accurate does not mean better. Not everyone wants a sharper, clearer image. Not everyone wants hi-fi. Not everyone wants a perfect, unblemished orange. Not everyone wanted Dillon to go electric. This doesn't stem from fear of technology or luddite fears, it's simply personal preference. Sometimes lo-fi is better. Sometimes the washy, muddy, dirty, gritty analog sample is preferred over the perfect, exact, polished, overproduced pristine one.

There's something to be said for analogue rawness in music that digital has never--and will never--be able to encapsulate.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Besides, the notion of a song that has been worn down and degraded being superior to the producer's intended degree of fidelity seems counter to the autonomy of artistic expression.

Nope. Wholly and factually wrong. It's not the DJ's job to play records in accordance with the producer's concrete instructions. It is the job of the DJ to kick the producer's sensitive tracking to the curb, tear his tracks apart, and recontextualize them in new forms and modes of his own choosing.

Any DJ who doesn't do this--who doesn't show complete and total antipathy to the producers who make his music--is not being a good DJ. And any producer who doesn't want a DJ to fuck with his "art" obviously doesn't understand the quality of being a producer.

Your job as a producer is to make music, not tell other people what to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex To be honest, the large scale move to digital will be good for the art of DJing. It will bring virtuosity back to the performance of the medium while people who DJ for the sole purpose of stringing music together are no longer diluting the talent.

Actually, the exact opposite is happening: Because of the ease of use and shallow learning curve of digital decks versus vinyl, the scene as a whole is now being inundated with very very VERY bad DJs who aren't very creative or interesting and have particularly narrow tastes in music (due to them not being engrossed in the scene for very long). Vinyl at least created a bottleneck of sorts, that whoever wanted to get into the profession had to pay their dues--to at least $1000/month record shopping--and ply their trade to work up their skills before they played out. That weeded out most of the fly-by-nighters who would normally lose interest and give up before they ever worked themselves up to their first paying gig. Now, thanx to the internet and auto-beatmatching plugins, a DJ can conceivably settle on a DJ name this morning, obtain a playlist this afternoon and spin at his first gig tonight.

I don't know about you, but I don't trust the musical knowledge, expertise and skillset of someone who's never set set foot inside a record store before. And there's nothing romantic about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Everything produces a feedback hum. But an analog feedback humm is warmer, louder, better, and more noticeable. And great for dancing.

thats why some producers still use hardware

quote:

Originally posted by Ishkur Vinyl at least created a bottleneck of sorts, that whoever wanted to get into the profession had to pay their dues--to at least $1000/month record shopping--and ply their trade to work up their skills before they played out. That weeded out most of the fly-by-nighters who would normally lose interest and give up before they ever worked themselves up to their first paying gig. Now, thanx to the internet and auto-beatmatching plugins, a DJ can conceivably settle on a DJ name this morning, obtain a playlist this afternoon and spin at his first gig tonight.

also on a similar note, with vinyl you had to be choosy. you couldn't just download anything & everything and have a huge selection of keyed-up tunes that go well together whenever it came to playing out.. you'd have a select amount of records you carefully chose & spent a fair whack on, meaning higher quality music overall with less half-baked filler material..

although on the other hand, with the 'digital revolution' when every man & his dog can DJ & has access to just about every new tune out there, those truly passionate about what they do have to work a damn site harder to stand out.. and if they do it properly, it shows.

always has been a bit of a double-edged sword in many respects..

i stopped buying new vinyls a while ago, they took too much out of my wallet, took up too much space in my room, and the sound quality difference between them & the CDs was all too noticeable. however i'll never part with most of my old vinyls & will still use them as part of classics sets, where consistent sound quality is less of an issue

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