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-- Help with a Build Up...

Posted by MidnightBlue on Aug-31-2006 22:39:

Help with a Build Up...

Hey everyone, it's me once again... I need help with something I'm currently working on, the only problem I really have with productions is that I lack major entertainment for the person to listen to while the song builds up. If you focus on some of the tracks out there, whether it's Progressive House, Progressive Trance, Uplifting Trance, or whatever sub-genre it may be, there are build ups that are sometimes boring and sometimes have enough variation to energize you while you're listening to it from the beginning.

I've been producing and learning new stuff for a while now. I've also been learning synthesis programming lately as well, but the major problem I have with my productions are build ups (which is what I was talking about before). Every song that I seem to start working on from inspiration, lacks energy and a nice build to start off with. I usually start with a beat at first (I produce Progressive Trance or Uplifting), and then I start adding pads and FX (which I'm still learning how to make better, but the pad in this build thats side-chaining isn't going with the beat. I have to tweak the Attack knob on Atmosphere a bit better, but for now it's better then nothing).

I focus hard on how to make my build interesting and to rise the song up to the breakdown with feeling, energy, and something that doesn't bore people with loops throughout the whole song. I've been working hard on trying to make my build ups sound better, with more variation and such. The problem is that I have no clue on what to add to make it interesting. Like I said before, I add side-chained pads and FX, there's nothing that I can think of on idea's to add somewhat "more" to the build.

If anyone can help me out, I'd fucking be the happiest guy right now. I've been working, working, working, and again, WORKING to get my build ups nice and interesting. But it looks like I'm going to need some help with this, because I'm out of idea's and I'm losing my inspiration. Any idea's for this would be awesome!

Here's a sample of what I'm working on (for now):

code:
http://www.speedyshare.com/775231931.html

Listen closely to the the pads, I'm going to change the side chained one because it does not sound too good... The bassline is a start I guess. I'm working on making it not overlap with my kick. As you can obviously see the song has a boring and "slow" build up with no variation thats interesting... Listen to it and analyze it, tell me what I should add to make it better. Tell me what you would add if you were working on this, in your own point of view, because it's the only way I can understand the way you guys "flow" with your music while you're building it up. Oh and, the percussion is plain for now, I can do nice stuff with percs later on. Right now I just want you guys to hear what it sounds like while it's building. Try to tell me my problems and what mistakes I've made, and the questions I asked before also (if possible).

Thanks so much guys, any help would be appreaciated. I've been trying my best and it's still not opening the door to something that I'm satisfied with. Like I said before, I'd be happy if someone can help me out.

Regards,
Jordan

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Aug-31-2006 22:50:

You should definitely make the bassline more active and maybe a bit louder. Also, add some more percs when the bass comes in.

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Aug-31-2006 22:52:

Also, add a new element around :14 -- when the thirty-third beat hits.

Posted by MrJiveBoJingles on Aug-31-2006 22:54:

At :14, you might want to use that same "crash" kind of sound that hits at :28.

Posted by MidnightBlue on Aug-31-2006 22:57:

Hmm... Okay, make the bassline a bit more octavating. Add more elements at :14, and something at :28... Hmm... any FX idea's man?

Posted by MidnightBlue on Aug-31-2006 23:08:

Anyone else willing to help me out?

Posted by Aquarian on Sep-01-2006 01:50:

I've often encoutered this problem. Different genres and different production styles offer different solutions. With euphoric trance, the most common problem is not being able to keep the attention of the listener. You grab it early on with a beat you've worked on for hours and built to perfection, and then after a few bars it starts to get old and repetitive. With this kind of trance, everything has to be very captivating and constantly moving. You want the focus to be on the kicks at first, but then shift to a short hat line... then to the incoming bassline... then to the hats... then the claps... etc..

So instead of just piling up those elements and have them come in unnoticed, you need to draw attention to them as much as possible. There are a few good tricks for doing this. Firstly, try ending phrases with somekind of swelling sound, reversed crash, drumroll or accent to mark it well, and on the first beat of your next phrase, have somekind of effect hitting (like a crash, or simply just filtered white noise). If you want to draw even more attention to it, try removing the last bar of kicks completely. This is going to capture the listener's attention for a split second, just as you introduce a new instrument or line of percussion. Another thing I like to do that works especially well for open hats and mid-high range synth lines is to slide them in with a filter that opens over a few phrases. It really brings them out above the rest. At the same time, have some long atmospheric pads rise up very slowly and playing along the bass notes (to be faded out when the breakdown hits).

Posted by MidnightBlue on Sep-01-2006 02:47:

quote:
Originally posted by Aquarian
I've often encoutered this problem. Different genres and different production styles offer different solutions. With euphoric trance, the most common problem is not being able to keep the attention of the listener. You grab it early on with a beat you've worked on for hours and built to perfection, and then after a few bars it starts to get old and repetitive. With this kind of trance, everything has to be very captivating and constantly moving. You want the focus to be on the kicks at first, but then shift to a short hat line... then to the incoming bassline... then to the hats... then the claps... etc..

So instead of just piling up those elements and have them come in unnoticed, you need to draw attention to them as much as possible. There are a few good tricks for doing this. Firstly, try ending phrases with somekind of swelling sound, reversed crash, drumroll or accent to mark it well, and on the first beat of your next phrase, have somekind of effect hitting (like a crash, or simply just filtered white noise). If you want to draw even more attention to it, try removing the last bar of kicks completely. This is going to capture the listener's attention for a split second, just as you introduce a new instrument or line of percussion. Another thing I like to do that works especially well for open hats and mid-high range synth lines is to slide them in with a filter that opens over a few phrases. It really brings them out above the rest. At the same time, have some long atmospheric pads rise up very slowly and playing along the bass notes (to be faded out when the breakdown hits).

Thanks a lot buddy, I appreaciate you taking your time away to help me out with build ups and such. That really helped, although some of the techniques you've mentioned were stuff that I learned a while back, and it's been helping a lot. Problem is, the only conflict that I have to fix up is my synth programming knowledge... If I'm more familiar with synth programming and actually "know" what I'm tweaking, producers have told me that I could make stuff much better. And I bloody well believe that! You can even use synth programming to make your percussions and such, but I'm already good at percussions (in my opinion). My only problem is FX, synthesis and a other related stuff to synth programming. But as everyone sais, practise, read, and MORE practise will lead you to be more comfortable with what you're trying to make, and then finally compose nice stuff on a build up to catch the listeners attention.

Again, what you wrote to me really helped a lot. I'm finished 2:24 minutes of the song, and almost done the build up; Progressive Trance always has nice and long progressive builds, around 2:50 or 4:00 sometimes.

Thanks so much, you've helped me big time! It really means a lot to me, have a good one mate and take care.

Regards,
Jordan

Posted by Anz_ on Sep-01-2006 07:24:

yeah i was having the same problem your having now, but just definately use effects to keep the tune interesting.automation can be your friend.
oh by the way, hey fk that world at war tune is sick man, good work.

Posted by MidnightBlue on Sep-02-2006 05:31:

Hey friends!

Thank you for your input, I'll do my best with FX. And automation can also help, I agree with you 100%. I am getting further into this track and it actually has a "decent" build up. I feel like I can do better, but I will keep trying! And about your "World at War" track, I'll definitely check this out!

Thanks again guys, appreaciate it! I will post a sample to what I have soon.

'gards,
Jordan

Posted by thoughtlessjex on Sep-02-2006 07:00:

One thing you'd do well with is sound effects. Sweeps and such are common in this style of music, and keep things moving.

Part of the thing is, you have absolutely no drive whatsoever. Bring in some sixteenths at some point.

Vary things a bit more. There is one change in percussion at 28, and that's it. Trance is all about increasing the energy before a beat loses your interest, and music that stagnates won't cut it, so build things a bit faster.

Posted by clubkidnycnyc on Sep-02-2006 10:48:

build incremently to build interest and keep energy.

Posted by wizniz on Sep-02-2006 16:39:

make variations of loops liek the bass to include a slightly different pattern...

make the bass louder

add periphery parts that play with the mind

use rolls (snare rolls, hi hat rolls)

throw some percussive fills in...

add another instrument (maybe a trance pluck... if i did this id put it on the 2n'd and 4th segments of the 1st beat so itd be like 1 and and 2 3 4 1 and and 2 3 4)

Posted by MidnightBlue on Sep-02-2006 21:14:

I understand, I've been listening to Trance for a very long time but producing isn't as easy as spinning. I'm still learning so bare with me, I'm trying to get some idea's from other songs with nice build ups, and obviously I'm following what all of you guys are telling me - I thank you for that!

Posted by MidnightBlue on Sep-02-2006 21:16:

By the way guys, about the side chained bassline... do you guys have any idea of what VST is good for bass? I have Trilogy and Bass-Station, but if you listen to some of Airwave's songs, he has a beautiful bassline that is side chained. Is that his own tweaking, could it be possible for me to do that with a preset on Bass-Station maybe?

Posted by thoughtlessjex on Sep-02-2006 23:29:

quote:
Originally posted by MidnightBlue
By the way guys, about the side chained bassline... do you guys have any idea of what VST is good for bass? I have Trilogy and Bass-Station, but if you listen to some of Airwave's songs, he has a beautiful bassline that is side chained. Is that his own tweaking, could it be possible for me to do that with a preset on Bass-Station maybe?

Tweakbench Pressure is a very awesome free VST. It's a little on the digital sounding side, and it doesn't respond to midi velocity/panning/etc., but it has an excellent low end.

Posted by MidnightBlue on Sep-02-2006 23:35:

quote:
Originally posted by thoughtlessjex
Tweakbench Pressure is a very awesome free VST. It's a little on the digital sounding side, and it doesn't respond to midi velocity/panning/etc., but it has an excellent low end.

Thanks mate, I will check that out right now.

EDIT: Wow! I'm currently listening to the sample that comes with Tweakbench Pressure, and no doubt, this has cool sounding basses. I like the thump basses as well!