TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- A Pig That Has Wings and Monkeys in my Butt.

A Pig That Has Wings and Monkeys in my Butt.

will they fly?

>UNITED NATIONS (AFP)<
Palestinian Authority president Mahmud Abbas told the UN General Assembly that any new Palestinian government would recognise Israel


this would be huge if it weren't for Hamas. but lets dig for more hope.

Hamas can't afford not to recognise Israel (pun intended)

I hope it is true though

Lets wait until this unity government is formed and follows through before we break open the champagne.

well that didn't take long. thats a real shame.

this is Hamas' version of Officer Barbrady on SouthPark: "Okay, move along people. nothing to see here"

>Hamas Rejects Palestinian Unity Government Plan Requiring Israel Recognition<

back to your regularly scheduled programming.

fucking typical. when are these people going to learn?

What to do with Hamas then? It seems they are the ones with the power in terms of being able to resolve everything or not. If only they would agree.

it's obvious what they want. they want war. ceaseless, blood-spattered, horrific, violent war...but on their terms as to not let on how morally and politically bankrupt there pretence is.

this is beyond the deceitful victim mentality we are all used to and some apologize for.

f**king animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it's obvious what they want. they want war. ceaseless, blood-spattered, horrific, violent war...but on their terms as to not let on how morally and politically bankrupt there pretence is. this is beyond the deceitful victim mentality we are all used to and some apologize for. f**king animals.

Didn't Bush call himself the War President?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fucking typical. when are these people going to learn?

I'll bet you anything you wouldn't be saying that if you're homeland was invaded and occupied by foreigners from another continent.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'll bet you anything you wouldn't be saying that if you're homeland was invaded and occupied by foreigners from another continent.

be that as it may mate, the simple fact is that israel isnt going anywhere and the only path to peace in this part of the middle east is if the right for israel to exist is acknowledged.

do you seriously want more war? coz thats the only thing hamas is going to achieve here. dont know about you, but more palestinian deaths doesnt please me very much.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN be that as it may mate, the simple fact is that israel isnt going anywhere and the only path to peace in this part of the middle east is if the right for israel to exist is acknowledged.

That's more of a path to accepting defeat and domination. This entire situation was premeditated and now there plently of documentation to prove that, including many writing from the fathers of Zionism. The only reason why "Israel" isn't going anywhere fast is due to Western support (mainly US now). No people, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, would accept brutal domination, humiliation, and forced removal from their ancestral homeland. I don't see any reason why any person with the slightest shred of morality (who doesn't have double standards), compassion, and respect for their fellow man should just "accept it" now because it's status quo . It's this kind of attitude and cowardly submission to power that will NEVER allow peace EVER, and it makes me sick. I know for a fact that no one in the same circumstances would act any differently or spout this kind of defeatist pacifist bullshit. Why should an illegitimately created state, consiously premeditated brutal plan of theft and domination, be respected or acknowledged as legitimate? Or do you only value fundamental principles, ethics, and morality (intelligible to anybody) when they not an inconvenience for you?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN do you seriously want more war? coz thats the only thing hamas is going to achieve here. dont know about you, but more palestinian deaths doesnt please me very much.

No, I don't. At the same time, I don't want to see the gradual annihilation of a people eigther. Neigther do I want to see the artificial creation of another Western supported state through the use of brutal domination and coercion. If we can't even rise to the most basic level of morality, all this talk about peace is nothing more than hot air. Looks like history hasn't taught us anything.

Good day sir, and have fun supporting tyranny.

EDIT: You cannot expect peace from an utter disregard for others and denial of their basic human rights. Simoultaneously, you can't expect acts of extreme indiscriminatory brutal violence to not occur from atleast some of a population that's been suject to such monstrous and humiliating domination and brutality.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it's obvious what they want. they want war. ceaseless, blood-spattered, horrific, violent war...but on their terms as to not let on how morally and politically bankrupt there pretence is. this is beyond the deceitful victim mentality we are all used to and some apologize for. f**king animals.

That's a pretty appropriate decription for a neo-con. But your indoctrination doesn't allow you to see that, even though deep down you're probably a good person who shares the same fundamental principles and values as the rest of humanity, which is the saddest part.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's more of a path to accepting defeat and domination.

that kind of rhetoric is only going to get more civilians (on both sides) killed.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z The only reason why "Israel" isn't going anywhere fast is due to Western support (mainly US now). No people, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, would accept brutal domination, humiliation, and forced removal from their ancestral homeland.

israel is recognised by an overwhelming number of nations around the world. like it or not, most foreign governments recognise israel's right to exist. thats never going to change.

how far back should we take

quote:

No people, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, would accept brutal domination, humiliation, and forced removal from their ancestral homeland.

?

because if you trace the evolution of nations back far enough, someone was always getting displaced by someone else. more often than not theres a whole lot of bloodshed. should current australians or americans give back all the land to the descendants of the respective indigenous populations? i certainly dont think so.

tell me, after 60 odd years of struggle, how much closer are the palestinian people to achieving a) a state of their own or b) the "destruction" (whatever that means) of israel?

at the moment a) will never happen without hamas, and hamas are marginalised if their attitude to israel doesnt change.

as for b) i mean seriously . youre throwing more and more civilians & militiamen against a modernised military with a draft. guerilla war has only ever been really successful at defeating a foreign power outside their own borders. israel is an established state, youre only guaranteeing perpetual war and more death & destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I don't see any reason why any person with the slightest shred of morality (who doesn't have double standards), compassion, and respect for their fellow man should just "accept it" now because it's status quo .

the israeli state is bigger in geogrpahical size today than it was at creation because people were unwilling to "accept it". the harder the palestinians fight, the more they lose. look at the destruction of lebanon

the alternative to accepting it is merely more of the same bloody violence that have filled the last decades. no one's goals are any closer to fruition. why do you think more struggle is going to achieve more in the next 60 years? is struggle always worth it, even when the struggle is "right"?

it just means more death.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z It's this kind of attitude and cowardly submission to power that will NEVER allow peace EVER, and it makes me sick. I know for a fact that no one in the same circumstances would act any differently or spout this kind of defeatist pacifist bullshit. Why should an illegitimately created state, consiously premeditated brutal plan of theft and domination, be respected or acknowledged as legitimate? Or do you only value fundamental principles, ethics, and morality (intelligible to anybody) when they not an inconvenience for you?

]

cowardly submission to power you say? defeatist pacifist bullshit? how many states would you categorise as being created "legitimately"? off the top of my head i cant think of too many. how many states do you think would be exempt from your category "consiously premeditated brutal plan[s] of theft and domination"?

the answer to the israel question will be solved by a palestinian state who will use diplomacy instead of violence. israel will only stop the violence when it does not feel/is not threatened. as long as you have a very powerful organisation sitting on your doorstep that is dedicated to your destruction you will commit savage acts (sometimes thoroughly legitimately) and beget even more violence.

until hamas realise the war has been lost more innocent people will be killed. only entering into a diplomatic relationship with israel will ever yield any results that might give peace a chance.

feel free to throw around your "fight the power" mentality, but the simple fact is its that kind of bullshit that will never see anything change, and we'll be here in another 20 years criticising israel for killing civilians and the palestinians for blowing themselves up at market.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No, I don't. At the same time, I don't want to see the gradual annihilation of a people eigther. Neigther do I want to see the artificial creation of another Western supported state through the use of brutal domination and coercion. If we can't even rise to the most basic level of morality, all this talk about peace is nothing more than hot air. Looks like history hasn't taught us anything.

well, a gradual annihilation is all you'll see until there is peace. and peace wont come without all parties recognising israel, wrongly or rightly. thats the reality. forget how "right" the entire cause is, if youre not winning, why lose even more just because youre on the morally superior team?

who the fuck knows what an elected palestinian government of a palestinian state could achieve in negotiations with israel?? its never been tried before. it certainly couldnt achieve any less than the struggle against israel has.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Good day sir, and have fun supporting tyranny.

whatever. im supporting something that at least has hope for change, rather than some ideologically romantic notion of fighting against the world's injustices whilst ignoring the fact that this fight is only causing more of those injustices.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's more of a path to accepting defeat and domination.

Thats the whole problem. It not about defeat or domination, its about being able to live peacefully with each other as one society. Over the years Europe had to go through similar problems, but they must be overcome in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN that kind of rhetoric is only going to get more civilians (on both sides) killed.

No, I'm not proposing violence is the solution. I'll get into what I mean a little later in this post.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN israel is recognised by an overwhelming number of nations around the world. like it or not, most foreign governments recognise israel's right to exist. thats never going to change.

So submission to power and accepting an unjust scenario somehow justifies it?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how far back should we take ?

As far back as is relevant . The past gazillion years are not. That's nothing more than a copout and refusal take resbonsibily and act ethicaly.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN because if you trace the evolution of nations back far enough, someone was always getting displaced by someone else. more often than not theres a whole lot of bloodshed. should current australians or americans give back all the land to the descendants of the respective indigenous populations? i certainly dont think so.

Well, if the vast majority of them weren't wiped off the face of the earth, then they might have been able to demand some type of reparations . Let's assume that they were'nt eliminated and this scenario could actually be reality. In that case, the only reason why current Americans/Australians are here (i.e. in America/Australia), is because they inherited the land their forefathers illegitimately conquered and occupied. The implication of that is the following generations have atleast some level of responsibility to ensure the displaced people no longer have to continue to suffer from the injustices and their consequences imposed on them centuries ago. The fact of the matter is that current generations continue to reap the benefits of past injustices. Now since the current generation isn't responsible for something they didn't participare in doesn't change the fact that they continue to reap it's benefits. The reason for this is the fact that the indigenous population are still displaced and experiencing negative consequences the direct resulted from it. Now they can't undo they past, but they can make reperations for it. So they DO have a collective moral responsibilty to accommodate the indigenous population and make sure that they don't continue to feel the after effects of the past. And that doesn't mean they have to pack up their shit and leave, cuz that would be a somewhat similar situation to cause of the problem in the first place. If you ever considered the moral implications such a scenario and the consequent course of action to take, perhaps you would have arrived to a some similar conclusion.

If you (generic you here) find that too inconveneint, you really have no say in a just solution to the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN tell me, after 60 odd years of struggle, how much closer are the palestinian people to achieving a) a state of their own or b) the "destruction" (whatever that means) of israel? at the moment a) will never happen without hamas, and hamas are marginalised if their attitude to israel doesnt change. as for b) i mean seriously . youre throwing more and more civilians & militiamen against a modernised military with a draft. guerilla war has only ever been really successful at defeating a foreign power outside their own borders. israel is an established state, youre only guaranteeing perpetual war and more death & destruction.

Well what the hell do you expect given their situation and the history of the conflict? NOTE: That doesn't mean I think their means are morally justifiable.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the israeli state is bigger in geogrpahical size today than it was at creation because people were unwilling to "accept it".

No, it's the result of aggresive militaristic domination, expansion, and occupation supported by the West (UK, France, US) and a premeditated plan to carry it out, which is still continues to this day due to US support. Without the aid of the West to implement their agenda, they never could have done it in the first place and this situation wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be so much deep seeded hatred on eigther side.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the alternative to accepting it is merely more of the same bloody violence that have filled the last decades. no one's goals are any closer to fruition. why do you think more struggle is going to achieve more in the next 60 years? is struggle always worth it, even when the struggle is "right"? it just means more death.

I'm just as interested in seeing an end to this as you are, but there won't be an end until justice prevails, and that can't happen with a neglect of ethics, morality, and responsibility. Power needs to be excercised responsibly and ethicaly for a just peace.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN cowardly submission to power you say? defeatist pacifist bullshit? how many states would you categorise as being created "legitimately"? off the top of my head i cant think of too many. how many states do you think would be exempt from your category "consiously premeditated brutal plan[s] of theft and domination"?

I already addressed that earlier.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the answer to the israel question will be solved by a palestinian state who will use diplomacy instead of violence. israel will only stop the violence when it does not feel/is not threatened

You're truly naive and delusional if you actually believe that. History and their own ideological literature have demonstrated the exact opposite. I've quoted several prominent and "respeceted" Zionists of the past demonstrating this. I don't feel the need to do it again, since you obviously ignored it before and I don't see why you wouldn't again.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN . as long as you have a very powerful organisation sitting on your doorstep that is dedicated to your destruction you will commit savage acts (sometimes thoroughly legitimately) and beget even more violence.

That a more appropriate decription of the IDF and Israeli Government. Hamas is an ant in comparison to a state and military that recieved billions of dollars of aid annualy, far superior state of the art military technology, and political support from the sole super power in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN feel free to throw around your "fight the power" mentality.

So sticking to elemtary morality, sticking to your principles, and looking for a just solution is a "fight the power" mentality? Well considering how often those in power are completely morally bankrupt, I guess it is majority of the time. In that case, I'd rather ascribe to that philosophy than submit to the power structure and be as unprincipled as them.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN well, a gradual annihilation is all you'll see until there is peace. and peace wont come without all parties recognising israel, wrongly or rightly. thats the reality. forget how "right" the entire cause is, if youre not winning, why lose even more just because youre on the morally superior team?

I recognize that the state of Israel exists. Unlike alot of Arabs I know/have met, I refer to it as Israel, not Palestine. The reason for that is the fact that it's there and that what it is called. That doesn't mean I believe it's legitimacy is unquestionable or it's creation, continued expansion, and policies are morally justifiable.

To say that you must accept it's "right" to exist implies entitlement, and I don't see how one can be entitled to something forcibly taken through aggression/terrorism, violence, displacement, persecution, collective punishment, and dehumanization. That's a higly pretentious demand to make of anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN who the fuck knows what an elected palestinian government of a palestinian state could achieve in negotiations with israel?? its never been tried before. it certainly couldnt achieve any less than the struggle against israel has. whatever. im supporting something that at least has hope for change, rather than some ideologically romantic notion of fighting against the world's injustices whilst ignoring the fact that this fight is only causing more of those injustices.

No you're not, you're supporting something that is guaranteed to fail and not result in a just or lasting peace. A large number of Israelis are good people and don't approve of all this sensless violence and injustice, as well as a large number of Palestinians. They're sick of decades of violence and insecurity, and just want to be able to live in peace. So I don't believe mutual respect and peaceful co-existance is impossible, but it certainly won't come about without a willingness to work together. Those in power have clearly demonstrated that they don't want that. Unilateral US support for Israel is a far cry from a "nuetral" stance of a third party interested in promoting a peaceful solution. The only thing that guarantees is a disproportionately more powerful and ever expanding Israel (and maintaining this status quo), and ofcourse the expected consequent reaction.

since when was life fair?

im not saying i disagree with you for the most part. but its the unwillingness of both sides to make certain concessions that maintains the status quo.

hamas' refusal to declare israel's right to exist is simply unacceptable. morally right or not, hamas can never win. thats the reality.

quote:

Originally posted by skot_e Thats the whole problem. It not about defeat or domination, its about being able to live peacefully with each other as one society. Over the years Europe had to go through similar problems, but they must be overcome in the end.

See my last post. That's what I'm proposing.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.