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Miller wants to tear down Gardiner

A report on the future of the Gardiner was released today. Miller is on record as to wanting to tear it down and replace it with a 6 lane boulevard (yeah like thats not a "barrier to the lakeshore) ... Can you say traffic chaos??

ALL THE MORE REASON TO VOTE FOR JANE PITFIELD THIS NOV!

Miller, everytime you open your mouth you confirm even more that you are an idiot.

quote:

Two-Year-Old Report On Future Of Gardiner Expressway Offers Three Options At High Costs Wednesday September 27, 2006 Normally reading a consultant's report submitted to Toronto City Hall would be like watching the proverbial fly go up the wall. But keep it a secret and suddenly everyone's interested. The long awaited and long hidden report on the future of the Gardiner Expressway has finally been released and it offers three separate options - all of which come with a huge cost. The study targets the elevated part of the roadway running east of Bathurst to West of the Don River. Among the options that experts are calling the "Three R's": Replace it This would involve burying it using tunnels at a cost of $1.3 billion. Another option: tear it down and put in a 10-lane thoroughfare with medians and sidewalks near Spadina for almost $500 million. Retain It This would mean relocating some strategic ramps and exits. That would put a $415 million dent in taxpayer wallets. Remove it This alternative centres on either expanding the Lakeshore or creating new surface roadways. The price tag for that: $437 for the former and $457 million for the latter. The report indicates what drivers already know - the Gardiner is already over capacity. It currently handles three times more volume than it was built for. When construction began in 1955, it was projected 60,000 cars a day would traverse its lanes. But since the explosion of growth in the suburbs, that's now up to 180,000 - and growing. The report, which has been kept secret for two years, is expected to play a major role in the November civic election, with both major candidates - David Miller and Jane Pitfield - sharing similar views but coming from opposite sides. Critics contend Miller has been trying to hide the report to keep it off the campaign trail radar, an allegation he flatly denies. "Records that come in from other agencies for city staff review happen all the time," he contends. "There are hundreds of records that come in for review ... City staff haven't finished their review and when they do finish their review, they report out. A member of council got interested and asked for the report ... If council wants an outside report, the appropriate procedures is for council to ask for. That's what happened here." But while he's in favour of seeing the Gardiner removed, he admits there's a problem. "I've always had the same position," he maintains. "If we could take it down where we are revitalizing from about Yonge Street to Jarvis (Street), that area. If we could take it down, great. But there is no money to do it. And until we find a way to pay for it, it is not on the table." Miller predicts it's a moot point in any event because an environmental assessment will take three years and an actual decision would be at least another year after that. And he admits his first priority is developing the waterfront, and that's what he intends to concentrate on. Opponent Jane Pitfield maintains there's no doubt about her position - leave it alone for now. "The majority of people in this city want the Gardiner to stay exactly where it is," she maintains. "No more of it should come down. It is a major east/west transportation network, and we have no good solution." Pitfield believes there are more pressing issues that need to be addressed, like crime and garbage. And she believes the public and not politicians should make the ultimate decision on the elevated roadway. The Canadian Automobile Association likes that idea. Fay Lyons says it's something that should be open for debate. "If you were to actually look at taking down the Gardiner Expressway, what is going to happen with that expressway-style traffic?" she wonders. "It's going to flush onto residential streets, which causes a big safety concern with the residents of Toronto, and again will force more congestion in the city as well." But Miller insists you can't take anything to the people without first having a sound business plan in place that includes alternate transportation options - and so far nothing exists. "We can't go to the people of Toronto with something that's not real," he counters. "Right now there is no business plan and no funding plan for any work to be done on the Gardiner other than routine maintenance." The report cost $1 million and makes for some heavy reading - it takes up a full seven volumes.

BURY IT.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker BURY IT.

this was just posted in the Waterfront thread.. truly interesting alternative..

http://www.toviaduct.com/Home.html

yet the viaduct plan wasnt even in the report. Shows what "vision" this city has.

Dismantle it or leave it... some vision

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 yet the viaduct plan wasnt even in the report. Shows what "vision" this city has. Dismantle it or leave it... some vision

makes you wonder if Miller/Pitfield are even aware of this viable option..

maybe we should email the TO Star editor about it

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL makes you wonder if Miller/Pitfield are even aware of this viable option..

agreed. i dont think alot of people know that there IS another option.

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL makes you wonder if Miller/Pitfield are even aware of this viable option.. maybe we should email the TO Star editor about it

im sure its been brought to their attention. But yes emailing support to everyone involved would be a good idea

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker BURY IT.

I agree. Its a monstrosity. A 6 lane road? Well yeah i guess something needs to replace the thoughrofare. Maybe some public transit would help aswell?

Lemme get something straight mr TOTA PM. You want waterfront improvemnt but think the gardiner should stay?

btw, this is where i found the link to it, http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=1121

spacing really has some interesting articles now and again. i encourage everyone to visit it sometime if they are interested in our city.

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker BURY IT.

agreed...but that's just my opinion. I'm not terribly sympathetic to traffic these days, lol.

IMHO, Pitfield is the one who sounds like an idiot. I could care less what "the majority of the people" want. The majority of the people are NOT urban planning experts and base their opinon on...their opinion.

Letting the people decide is idiotic. the general population has zero knowledge of the impact of whatever their opinion would be...that's why we elect politicians who in turn commission EXPERTS to conduct feasibility, business and environmental studies.

I don't think Miller sounds stupid at all when He says that the point is currently moot becuase there is no money and that it's pointless bringing it to the people because there IS no business plan in place. How do you let the people decide when there IS NO BUSINESS PLAN? This study is old and hasn't been updated.

"Hey guys, what do you think we should do. Here are three options, but the cost info for each may be completely off base because this study is already more than two years old".

Pitfield, in saying there are more important issues like crime (bullshit, but the paranoid public will eat that up) and garbage, is sidestepping the issue...crime and garbage is 100% irrelevant to what to do with the Gardiner and I expect that our city council can tackle ALL of these issues. If they can't, then she is SUPPORTING Miller's assertion that the point is moot, since there is no money and no business plan, isn't she?

Guys I think we start to relax... I mean after all, scientists did just teleport a beam of light recently, at this pace it's only about 25 years before we should be able to do it to people and then we won't need cars. Then we can just forget all about this problem. I, for one, see teleportation as the future long before they ever finish a new Gardiner project.

quote:

Originally posted by Time2Burn I agree. Its a monstrosity. A 6 lane road? Well yeah i guess something needs to replace the thoughrofare. Maybe some public transit would help aswell? Lemme get something straight mr TOTA PM. You want waterfront improvemnt but think the gardiner should stay?

For now yes. I tend to agree with Pitfield that there are more pressing issues in the city. The ridiculously high tax rate thats scaring people and business away for one. The panhandling problem for another.

Leave the gardiner alone for now. Lets fix things that need fixing instead of just asthetics pleasing ideas. BTW the real "wall" to the lakefront is not a highway that people can easily walk under. Its the wall of condos that border the lake with no public access. Why does everyone seem to miss that point?

I support the viaduct option the most but right now we simply cant afford any of it.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT agreed...but that's just my opinion. I'm not terribly sympathetic to traffic these days, lol. IMHO, Pitfield is the one who sounds like an idiot. I could care less what "the majority of the people" want. The majority of the people are NOT urban planning experts and base their opinon on...their opinion. Letting the people decide is idiotic. the general population has zero knowledge of the impact of whatever their opinion would be...that's why we elect politicians who in turn commission EXPERTS to conduct feasibility, business and environmental studies. I don't think Miller sounds stupid at all when He says that the point is currently moot becuase there is no money and that it's pointless bringing it to the people because there IS no business plan in place. How do you let the people decide when there IS NO BUSINESS PLAN? This study is old and hasn't been updated. "Hey guys, what do you think we should do. Here are three options, but the cost info for each may be completely off base because this study is already more than two years old". Pitfield, in saying there are more important issues like crime (bullshit, but the paranoid public will eat that up) and garbage, is sidestepping the issue...crime and garbage is 100% irrelevant to what to do with the Gardiner and I expect that our city council can tackle ALL of these issues. If they can't, then she is SUPPORTING Miller's assertion that the point is moot, since there is no money and no business plan, isn't she?

Miller wants to tear it down and build a 6 lane road in its place. He said it even today. Thats th dumbest thing that could possibly happen. So yes hes an idiot.

As for garbage. Dont even get me started on the shady deal that just went down in london. This from the same bunch of idiots that OPPOSED kirkland lake (which was a willing host).

Time for a change!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 For now yes. I tend to agree with Pitfield that there are more pressing issues in the city. The ridiculously high tax rate thats scaring people and business away for one. The panhandling problem for another. Leave the gardiner alone for now. Lets fix things that need fixing instead of just asthetics pleasing ideas. BTW the real "wall" to the lakefront is not a highway that people can easily walk under. Its the wall of condos that border the lake with no public access. Why does everyone seem to miss that point? I support the viaduct option the most but right now we simply cant afford any of it.

you have got to be fucking kidding me. You think the "panhandling problem" is a pressing issue?

wow. THANK GOD you are not on city council...

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT you have got to be fucking kidding me. You think the "panhandling problem" is a pressing issue? wow. THANK GOD you are not on city council...

its a problem when you walk down the street and get asked 5 times by meth addicts for spare change. It affects tourism greatly. Its even mentioned in the lonely planet for god sake!

But yeah its far down the list but def higher priority than the gardiner

quote:

Originally posted by smuncky btw, this is where i found the link to it, http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=1121 spacing really has some interesting articles now and again. i encourage everyone to visit it sometime if they are interested in our city.

i love spacing .. they really do provide some insightful articles..

quote:

Originally posted by Time2Burn I agree. Its a monstrosity. A 6 lane road? Well yeah i guess something needs to replace the thoughrofare. Maybe some public transit would help aswell? Lemme get something straight mr TOTA PM. You want waterfront improvemnt but think the gardiner should stay?

+1. It is a monstrosity! And big ups for more public transporation!! Its a difficult situation and decision to make, and hopefully a decision will be made keeping in mind of our waterfront, which we are oh so lucky to have and continuesly take advantage of. Booo pollution!!

quote:

Originally posted by Beach420 +1. It is a monstrosity! And big ups for more public transporation!! Its a difficult situation and decision to make, and hopefully a decision will be made keeping in mind of our waterfront, which we are oh so lucky to have and continuesly take advantage of. Booo pollution!!

public transportation is very important.

BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF AN ALREADY WEAK ROAD SYSTEM. We must have a balanced approach. You will never convince everyone to leave the car at home. It wont happen.

Improve transit AND highways.

I know he's a good DJ and all...but what does Sean know about city planning?...sounds fishy to me

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 its a problem when you walk down the street and get asked 5 times by meth addicts for spare change. It affects tourism greatly. Its even mentioned in the lonely planet for god sake! But yeah its far down the list but def higher priority than the gardiner

To me panhandling is not the problem it is their addiction to meth.

So we should throw em in jail with 2nd offence drunk drivers right? LOL.

There are better ways to deal with social issues/problems then ruling with an iron fist. We leave that to Swamper.

burying it is a good idea, but the problem is that they are looking to Boston for inspiration, and their "Big Dig" project has been a huge flop/problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Orko burying it is a good idea, but the problem is that they are looking to Boston for inspiration, and their "Big Dig" project has been a huge flop/problem.

massive cost and time overruns.. we're talkin into the billions here.. not to mention someone recently having been killed due to falling concrete and debris ..

burrying it is not an easy solution as it is likely the most costly option our there not to mention the years of traffic disruption that it would cause as noted in the Viaduct plan ..

lol.. i just added a comment on the Star's article feedback about the lack of the Viaduct being mentioned as an alternative..

you too can do the same!

http://www.thestar.com/cgi-bin/star...7_gardiner.html

me likes.

It's all politics. Burying it would cost the government 2 billion dollars. If Gardiner would be a tunnel, Toronto would defintely make a bit step up the ladder of a raising megacity. Ffs, they want to build Toronto's skyline but yet they can't understand the fundamentals of construction anarchy. Building another boulevard would be a disaster. Doesn't matter if you have 6 or 10 lines if lights are controlling traffic Gardiner these days is just as busy as 401, in it's peak hours. I'd say if tunnel was under construction, extend it with another 2 extra lines. City's growing and the future has to be measured. At least Americans have that figured out with Beltways.

P.S. Construction disasters never happen, it's miserable management.

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