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-- cheating with midi - ever done it?

cheating with midi - ever done it?

So tell me how many of you have have taken the midi info of a track you like, mucked about about with it to come up with your own melody?

I've read it happens quite a lot - but do you consider it cheating?

Has anyone got any experiences of when this did this - moving from the well known track to there own?

I did it alot in the beginning to get a hold on how things work, but with time you will know how to create your own. But i dont think its cheating, just another way to self learn the basics like in all other matters.

Cheers
C

I've never even used any midi files save the ones I create myself from scratch. Maybe I should start using this method.

ive stolen the bass pattern from midis before, like arpeggio notes and stuff because i dunno how to write a nice arpeggio but the chord pattern and such is different?

i dunno, it could be classed as cheating, but whos to judge?

I don't really do this all that often, although listening to music has often pulled out musical ideas in me that are not so far removed from the song they came from.

Recently, though, I was experimenting with imitating the supersaw sound using a midi I made based on Carte Blanche, and when I pulled the filter cutoff down to a certain point, that opened up a new chord idea for me that is completely different from the melody that I had been using.

Not once, not ever.

quote:

Not once, not ever.

+1

+2

I didn't even realize you could do this? At the end of the day, I figured everybody just bounced their stuff to audio and mixed down that way. I didn't think people would mix with their MIDI data (even if it's from hardware synths).

I don't know. I don't know if it's cheating. That's a really blurry line to draw. I can see (now that I'm aware of it) perhaps looking up really sporatic lines that I couldn't pick out on my own, and just seeing their structure and trying to apply, theoretically, the concepts I learn into something of my own. However I get MUCH more out of it when I repeatedly listen, ear-training style, and dictate or try to receit on the piano/synth. You'd be surprised because with this method a lot of times whilst trying to dicipher the riff, you'll end up coming up with your own and most of the time that is what I go with. I just did it recently for a track. The beauty of this is that then it's engrained into your creative repertoir, as opposed to your logical repertior of going to a MIDI repository.

Both are good ideas, but again I am going to lean more towards the DIY argument, for myself personally that is. Doesn't work that way for everyone.

Cheers mate

quote:

Originally posted by Arudius +2 I didn't even realize you could do this? At the end of the day, I figured everybody just bounced their stuff to audio and mixed down that way. I didn't think people would mix with their MIDI data (even if it's from hardware synths).

That's not what he's saying. He's just talking about taking some popular midi, importing it into the sequencer, changing a couple of notes and calling it your own tune.

Although I have no musical training (do everything by ear) Ive never used someone elses midi, but it def is a good way to learn the basics

but I wouldnt consider it cheating at all.

I am just beginner with music making, so I do find midis very helpfull...
With them it is easier to learn about songs` structure and stuff like that.

I don't have the ear/talent to make a midi out of song that I hear.
So when I hear a killer song (maybe nice synth line or catchy bass line) I try to find the midi of the song. That way I can see how the melody/bass is made, what is the structure. And learn.

I don't know if this is cheating?
I think it is more like learning...?

Re: cheating with midi - ever done it?

quote:

Originally posted by knight54 So tell me how many of you have have taken the midi info of a track you like, mucked about about with it to come up with your own melody? I've read it happens quite a lot - but do you consider it cheating? Has anyone got any experiences of when this did this - moving from the well known track to there own?

it`s not very creative
so i didn`t

I've never done it, but i wouldn't see it as cheating - unless you could recognise the original.

As far as trance melodies/harmonies go its all much of a muchness. I think its more about the production you apply to it.

quote:

Originally posted by lunamore I don't know if this is cheating? I think it is more like learning...?

The way to learn is by doing. You can look at other people's work as much as you want, but it won't get you any further ahead in the learning process.

I also think it's kind of funny to say (MT) that it's not cheating "unless you could recognize the original" - that's basically the same as saying "it's not cheating unless you get caught". Good technical production does not make up for a generic, clich� melody.

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Originally posted by DigiNut I also think it's kind of funny to say (MT) that it's not cheating "unless you could recognize the original" - that's basically the same as saying "it's not cheating unless you get caught". Good technical production does not make up for a generic, clich� melody.

i disagree.. i think its the result that counts, making something based on what u hear, or making something based on a MIDI, is just the same prinicple. You can hear something and remake something based on what you hear, or you can remake something based on the MIDI.

and i have never cheated with MIDI, im too fond of remixing tracks instead.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I also think it's kind of funny to say (MT) that it's not cheating "unless you could recognize the original" - that's basically the same as saying "it's not cheating unless you get caught". Good technical production does not make up for a generic, clich� melody.

I also disagree, and agree to what subtle say. I mean, if i learn by litening to a track, i can learn eaven more by taking it down to its bits.

So by taking a midi from soemthing you really like and the recreate it to your own idea is not cheating. And who is to judge in this matter? I think no one, cus thats how the music industry has been as long as i can remeber.

You listen to a track, and you think its good, however you have an idea to make it better. So you start off with the original midi, and the you start sketch on the melody you want, change the cords, and the pattern, and in the end you may have a killer tune that is often nothing alike what it came from. Cus then its all anbout how you put the track together!?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I also think it's kind of funny to say (MT) that it's not cheating "unless you could recognize the original" - that's basically the same as saying "it's not cheating unless you get caught". Good technical production does not make up for a generic, clich� melody.

But surely if you cannot recognise the original, it is in essence a new melody. Whether its inspiration was listening to another melody, or using the MIDI of another melody - I don't see a difference.

It's a widely used technique in all forms of art to take other pieces of art as inspiration, I don't see MIDI as being any different.

I've not ever done this, but I'm definietly going to give it a go with some of my favorite tracks.

There's no such thing as cheating. If you take someone else's melody and change it and better it, all good to you. Like Sting says, "good composers borrow, great composers steal".

I mean, if someone takes a track you wrote, copies the melody, changes it enough to be different, and then has a huge hit track and makes millions, are you gonna scream "you cheated, you rewrote my melody, I want some of your money"? Unless you can prove that it's the melody you wrote and used, you ain't gonna get squat.

quote:

Originally posted by jahnlay I mean, if someone takes a track you wrote, copies the melody, changes it enough to be different, and then has a huge hit track and makes millions, are you gonna scream "you cheated, you rewrote my melody, I want some of your money"? Unless you can prove that it's the melody you wrote and used, you ain't gonna get squat.

And because you wouldn't win anything in court, that makes it okay?

Besides, even if someone copied the melody, harmony, drums, and entire arrangement wholesale, and made millions, you still wouldn't get anything. You can't copyright that. Intellectual Property only takes the form of an actual production or sheet music (in the case of sheet music it's only illegal to reproduce the score itself for profit, not illegal to use parts of it in a production).

Subtle, you're right in a sense, making something based on what you hear and making something based on a MIDI is going to achieve a similar result, but at least you're honing an actual skill by doing the former. You're working on your musical memory, your sense of pitch, your ability to recognize chords, etc. In instrumental music this is called ear training.

It's all fine and good to study a MIDI or a sheet-music arrangement if you want to learn about arrangement and chord progression. That's done all the time in theory classes. There is, however, nothing educational or honourable about taking it a step further and using it as a basis for something you proceed to call an original work.

If you credit the original author then that's fine. Classical composers did this all the time with pieces titled "Variations on theme by _________". And these pieces were much more different from the original than most of the ripped-off trance I hear. But then that's obvious isn't it - there's no plagiarism when credit is given.

quote:

Originally posted by jahnlay There's no such thing as cheating. If you take someone else's melody and change it and better it, all good to you. Like Sting says, "good composers borrow, great composers steal".

and the best composers just compose by themself

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Besides, even if someone copied the melody, harmony, drums, and entire arrangement wholesale, and made millions, you still wouldn't get anything. You can't copyright that. Intellectual Property only takes the form of an actual production or sheet music

Yes you would, if someone did that you could take them to the cleaners. I don't know why you think that you wouldn't. That's what intellectual property copyright is there for. You are incredibly wrong.

I don't consider it cheating in the least. As has been already stated, its a great way to learn. You will definitely limit your growth as a musician if you don't look at how other composers do what they do. We all pick up tricks of the trade - if you will. We come here to learn about mastering, composing, etc. Other's songs are just another means by which to learn by.

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Originally posted by David Adams I don't consider it cheating in the least. As has been already stated, its a great way to learn. You will definitely limit your growth as a musician if you don't look at how other composers do what they do. We all pick up tricks of the trade - if you will. We come here to learn about mastering, composing, etc. Other's songs are just another means by which to learn by.

I couldn't agree more. Dissecting a pros work to gain inspiration and find out how to make a "proper" track is all part of the learning curve, most definitely. Its a really good way for people that aren't experienced enough to know how things work both musically and arrangement wise (note placings etc). I have learnt a lot myself from various midi files and will use them for knowledge gathering and inspiration and remixes, for the foreseeable future.

PC

quote:

Besides, even if someone copied the melody, harmony, drums, and entire arrangement wholesale, and made millions, you still wouldn't get anything. You can't copyright that. Intellectual Property only takes the form of an actual production or sheet music (in the case of sheet music it's only illegal to reproduce the score itself for profit, not illegal to use parts of it in a production).

Yes you could, that's the purpose of copyright, for melody anyway.

quote:

I don't consider it cheating in the least. As has been already stated, its a great way to learn. You will definitely limit your growth as a musician if you don't look at how other composers do what they do. We all pick up tricks of the trade - if you will. We come here to learn about mastering, composing, etc. Other's songs are just another means by which to learn by.

Agreed

cant be really called cheating if the pro's get away with it,

- 'lolo - why' sounds exactly like 'sasha - xpander'

- 'paul van dyk - for an angel' is like a 'kai tracid' track think its 'liquid skies'

thats examples of tracks which have clearly been ripped off although if people are just using the midi to find out different progressions i dont see the harm in that.

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