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Russia & 1930s Germany?
Inspired by this thread.
http://economist.com/world/europe/d...y_id=E1_RDPTVJS
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| Russia The hardest word Oct 12th 2006 | MOSCOW From The Economist print edition A murder, a grudge, deportations and what they say about Russia's worrying political direction. Is it time to use the f-word? �PROVOCATION� is an old Soviet game that can be hard to follow. When two countries employ the same techniques, luring the other into useful folly, it is harder still. In the spat between Russia and Georgia, it has begun to seem that what looked like an overreaction by the Kremlin�and thus a victory, however pyrrhic, for the Georgians�may have a very different purpose and meaning. The Kremlin loathes Georgia, once a cherished vassal, with the special wrath reserved for wayward loved ones. To the Russians, Mikhail Saakashvili, Georgia's president, is an American puppet, hell-bent on taking his country into NATO, and the arch-carrier of the germ of post-Soviet revolution. For his part, Mr Saakashvili is irate over Russia's meddlesome backing for South Ossetia and Abkhazia, two regions of Georgia that broke away in the early 1990s. Georgia's arrest last month of a handful of Russian intelligence officers (terrorists, insists Mr Saakashvili) may have been a counter-provocation, aimed at garnering international sympathy. If that was the plan, it probably worked: the Russians went berserk. Even though the men were swiftly deported, Russia recalled its ambassador, evacuated other Russians, severed transport and postal links with Georgia�and then imposed a raft of punitive measures against the legions of ethnic Georgians (many of them Russian citizens) living and working in Russia itself. In Moscow, hundreds have been arrested and deported (pictured above); celebrities with Georgian names harassed; Georgian-owned businesses raided and closed. The manager of one Georgian restaurant says the staff are in hiding; another says the water has been turned off. The police, meanwhile, asked Moscow schools for lists of children with Georgian surnames, though Dmitri Peskov, a Kremlin spokesman, terms the request a �disgusting� excess of zeal. Now we understand how Chechens living here feel, says a doctor, who like many Moscow Georgians is a refugee from Abkhazia. New immigration laws, explicitly targeted against Georgians, are promised; so are restrictions on the remittances that help prop up Georgia's economy; Russians allege they contribute to its militarisation. Another hike in the price of Russian gas seems likely (there was one last winter, along with mysterious simultaneous explosions in both export pipelines). Mr Saakashvili may have underestimated the further damage the Kremlin can do to Georgia. He may also have over-estimated the outside help he can expect. �Russia sees Georgia as a bastion of the West,� he complains, �but the West doesn't.� For all that, Georgia will survive the confrontation. But can Russia? The Kremlin's escalation of it is an extreme example of another Soviet habit Mr Putin has inherited: using foreign enemies as scapegoats and tools in domestic politics. Past targets have included America, Ukraine, and foreign do-gooders allegedly engaged in espionage. This row comes as anxiety mounts over the question of the succession to Mr Putin when his second (and supposedly final) presidential term ends in 2008. A foreign threat, even a bogus one, will help keep the electorate pliant, whatever the Kremlin decides to do. This scaremongering is matched by the Kremlin's shifting stance towards xenophobic nationalism, already starkly manifest in a plague of racist murders by skinheads (often un- or under-punished). An anti-Caucasian riot in Kondopoga in northern Russia last month was what once would have been called a pogrom. Until recently, the Kremlin has tried to �ride the tiger� of extreme nationalism, as Dmitri Trenin, of the Carnegie think-tank in Moscow, puts it, through a risky double strategy: portraying itself as a bulwark against extremism, but also trying to harness nationalist instincts for its own ends. It is widely thought to have created the nationalist Motherland party to siphon votes away from the Communists. (Motherland is now being merged with two other parties into what will become the main �opposition��almost certainly a completely loyal one). Mr Putin seems now to be giving the tiger freer rein. For example, he last week enjoined his ministers to protect the interests of �Russia's native population� against the ethnic gangs who, he said, control the street markets. Such gangs are �a reality�, says the Kremlin's Mr Peskov, in justification. But after a racist bombing in a Moscow market killed a dozen people in August, Mr Putin's remarks were at best inadvisable; and in what is�however much some ethnic Russians might wish otherwise�a multi-ethnic country, potentially disastrous. So, in a different way, might be the growing squeeze on foreign energy firms. Big investments are running into trouble, and after years of dangling the carrot of outside involvement in the giant offshore Shtokman gasfield, Gazprom, the state-run gas giant, now says it will go it alone. The state's attitude to both business and Georgia demonstrates Mr Putin's failure to create the �dictatorship of the law� that he once promised. Untrammelled by normal constraints such as an independent judiciary or a genuine opposition, the Kremlin makes and breaks laws as it pleases. The growth of racist violence is both evidence and result of a broader lawlessness. Lack of faith in government institutions, and especially in the police, says Eduard Ponarin of St Petersburg's European University, leads some to seek other forms of redress. A recent string of high-profile contract-killings�of a top central banker and of an engineer for a gas company that is in dispute with the government�are another sign of this lawlessness. On October 7th, Anna Politkovskaya, a journalist and campaigner (see our obituary), died in the same way. According to some (including Mr Putin), her murder was another provocation, designed to discredit the Russian authorities whom she bravely criticised. But whoever killed her, Mr Putin shares the blame for having made independent journalism both rare and perilous. Dictatorship of the lawless Russia's huge size and troubled history make any comparisons risky. Yet some see historical parallels in present trends. Yegor Gaidar, a former prime minister, draws an analogy with inter-war Germany, which like post-Soviet Russia experienced economic chaos, then a period of stabilisation in which post-imperial nostalgia took hold. Vladimir Ryzhkov, one of the few remaining independent parliamentarians, worries that Mr Putin seems to be switching from an imperial idea of Russia towards one more resembling a �Reich�. History also offers a term to describe the direction in which Russia sometimes seems to be heading: a word that captures the paranoia and self-confidence, lawlessness and authoritarianism, populism and intolerance, and economic and political nationalism that now characterise Mr Putin's administration. It is an over-used word, and a controversial one, especially in Russia. It is not there yet, but Russia sometimes seems to be heading towards fascism. |
I don't like The Economist journal. I used to read British edition for while. It seems that the point of view in all their articles about Russia always depends on the amount of profit the West can gain.
If the profit > 0 they write in positive colors, if < 0, they condemn and rebuke everything.
It is not what I call an independent press media.
Wow, what a lame article. Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!!
Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions.
That article is biased and bullshit ...
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium That article is biased and bullshit ... |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Wow, what a lame article. Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!! Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions. That article is biased and bullshit ... |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy So are most of your arguments. I find it both hilarious and sad how much of a hypocrite you are depending on if you're talking about the US or Russia. I was actually expecting more of a response from you based on the hypocrisy you showed in the other thread dealing with the issue of the Georgian immigrants. You disappointed me |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Wow, what a lame article. Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!! Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions. That article is biased and bullshit ... |
Mr Kozlov, top Russian government banking supervisor official was murdered a month ago. He was appointed by Putin. Did Putin kill his own minister?
You see the logic?
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium The aliens and my other views have nothing to do with this. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Please tell me where I am lying here |
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| Originally posted by metalgearsolid Wow, did you know that over ten million illegal Mexican immigrants live in USa right now? That is like ten percent of the pop. Arms reduction? Even Putin said he was going to build the military up because Russia needs it. And look in Chechnya? The war/occupation is going to last for a very long time. The Russian's have no other plan than to stay there until Chechan's die out or surrender to the Russians. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium The aliens and my other views have nothing to do with this. Please tell me where I am lying here: "Did you know that there are about 10 MILLION illegal Georgian immigrants in Russia right now? Thats like the entire population of actual Georgia!!! Last time I checked Russian economy is growing, and Russia is not invading other countries and not building up militarily like Germany did in 1930s, but quite the opposite - arms reductions." Putin actually publicly condemned the journalist's murder. The easy solution is to blame him. He had nothing to gain murdering the journalist, absolutely nothing other than bad publicity. Hundreds of businessmen, politicians, journalists, rich Russian people get murdered in Russia every year. Its funny how the West is so quick to blame Putin on this, without even waiting for the investigation even to start!!!! Thats LAME! Your points about Putin is lame - how can someone expect Putin to be able to kind bodyguards and protect all 140 million citizens? You gotta be joking me ... grow out of your ignorance. All the solved prolific murders in last 15 years in Russia have been connected to greedy businessmen, mafia and robbery, and other political interests. Its the western media's campaign to make Putin look bad - but in truth they got nothing on him other than their own opinions. As for this Rodina pparty unification that this article is talking about - the article criticises Putin for not BREAKING LAWS to CLAMP DOWN on their freedoms and ban this party. That sounds like a call to do what these same westerners criticise of Putin - clammping down on democracy. The guy who wrote the article is a complete moron and idiot, with little logic .... |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy So are most of your arguments. I find it both hilarious and sad how much of a hypocrite you are depending on if you're talking about the US or Russia. I was actually expecting more of a response from you based on the hypocrisy you showed in the other thread dealing with the issue of the Georgian immigrants. You disappointed me |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium So are you saying that the illegally living in Russia Georgians should just continue illegally earning money, not paying taxes, breaking laws and helping organized crime and their own dictatorship at home? THEY ARE MANY PEOPLE LIKE MY FAMILY THAT FOOUGHT HARD TO WIN CITIZENSHIP, PAYING A LOT OF MONEY AND PUTTING A LOT OF DEDICATION AND HARD WORK TO EARN THE RIGHT TO LEGALLY LIVE AND WORK IN THE COUNTRY (I became a Canadian citizen in 2002). These illegals think they deserve the same rights because they're breaking laws, and living easy lives compared to others who spent years trying to become citizens. Am I a hypocrite now? I went through this shit, to become a Canadian citizen is a lot of work, money and dedication. These aliens/illegals spend years not paying taxes, taking advantage of the system THAT I PAY TAXES FOR. WHERE'S THE JUSTICE??? |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Did you get Georgians confused with Mexicans? |
Magnetonium, you haven't been in Russia for a long time I must say.
Just take a break and read this article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714152
In short, it's about the process of deporation of Georgians from Russia where one of them dies in the Moscow Airport of asthma. Apparanteley because he didn't receive the medicine and proper care from Russian authorities.
Now read this article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714164
And explain me please, why the Russian police has linked described events with Georgian organized crime structures only few days ago ? i.e. right after Russia impossed sanctions on Georgia ? I'm ASKING what were they doing before ? Why all that shit (of course if it's true) was existing for at least 15 years (amount them, 6 years while Putin is in charge) and nobody was caring much about it ?
Russian government stinks, and Putin doesn't care about the situation inside Russia all. He is nice authoritarian leader, but that way of government definitly is not the future of Russia.
Do you know what he was trying to do in Germany last week ?
He was bullying German's PM (behind France's back) to become a sinle distributor of the natural gas in Europe, while Gazprom becomes its single supplier.
Shitty moves. And all the campaign towards Georgia is Russian FASCISM.
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Wow, I didn't even mention aliens or Putin at all. I just said that based on your comments that you were a hypocrite. You know, this thread) and your statements all over this forum about the US. The aliens must have abductd me, probed my undeveloped thoughts and handed them over to you for you to have inferred even close to what you did about my opinions on Russia, which are few and far between. I honestly don't know that much about what's going on there because to be honest, I don't really care until issues start arising that affect me. There are far too many other things, being an American that half the world hates because of our leaders stupid decisions, that affect me in this world than part of some country that hasn't been a threat to us in at least 15 years. |
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| Originally posted by star-traveller That is exactly the root of all your (Americans) problems. You don't care about the others until they become a threat to you. That's why as you said, half of the world hates US. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Putin actually publicly condemned the journalist's murder. |
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| Even the Chechen people in 2002 referendum called for remaining within Russia. |
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| Originally posted by star-traveller Magnetonium, you haven't been in Russia for a long time I must say. Just take a break and read this article: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714152 In short, it's about the process of deporation of Georgians from Russia where one of them dies in the Moscow Airport of asthma. Apparanteley because he didn't receive the medicine and proper care from Russian authorities. Now read this article: http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=714164 And explain me please, why the Russian police has linked described events with Georgian organized crime structures only few days ago ? i.e. right after Russia impossed sanctions on Georgia ? I'm ASKING what were they doing before ? Why all that shit (of course if it's true) was existing for at least 15 years (amount them, 6 years while Putin is in charge) and nobody was caring much about it ? Russian government stinks, and Putin doesn't care about the situation inside Russia all. He is nice authoritarian leader, but that way of government definitly is not the future of Russia. Do you know what he was trying to do in Germany last week ? He was bullying German's PM (behind France's back) to become a sinle distributor of the natural gas in Europe, while Gazprom becomes its single supplier. Shitty moves. And all the campaign towards Georgia is Russian FASCISM. |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew Hah! It is true he did, a few days after it happend, in fucking Germany! Any president with any self respect whatsoever would have condemned her assasination instantly with a lot stronger words than his! Yeah thats right, the election wasn't criticised at all for being unfair! Or maybe that was just another part of western conspiracy against the Russians! |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Its kinda funny, but everytime there's an election where a non-western leader wins, the West claims the elections were rigged. But then when elections are called in favour of pro-western leader, then the elections were fair. |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew I can agree that the west tend to make a lot more fuss about elections that are unfair to a pro-western candidate than vice versa, but ffs, you know the Chechen election wasn't fair or just (even though the results might have been the same under a fair election)! |
Other former Soviet block recent elections: In Turkmenistan, their leader was elected to LIFETIME rule in the country. Since USA has military bases and gas from the country, it receives no criticism, even though racism, crime and media-control is wide in Turkmenistan. Their leader is so fucked up, he is called GOD and everyone has to know his book describing how beautiful their country is, how their leader is the greatest, and all the achievements made by him, bla bla bla bla ... AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW IT, OR YOU GET IMPRISONED. You NEED TO KNOW THE BOOK to pass the school. Agh, and you though North Korea was evil. See Wikipedia:
"Turkmenistan is also under the rule of one of the world's most autocratic and repressive dictatorships."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan
Read in detail over here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Turkmenistan
Yeah, where's the US and European criticism of that shithole???
On December 28, 1999, Niyazov's term was extended indefinitely by the Mejlis (parliament), which itself had taken office only a week earlier in elections that included only candidates hand-picked by President Niyazov; no opposition candidates were allowed. President for Life Saparmurat Niyazov, a former bureaucrat of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, has ruled Turkmenistan since 1985, when he became head of the Communist Party of the Turkmen SSR. He retains absolute control over the country and opposition is not tolerated. The president's party, the Democratic Party of Turkmenistan, is the only one legally permitted. Political gatherings are illegal unless government sanctioned. All citizens are required to carry internal passports, noting place of residence, and movement into and out of the country, as well as within its borders, is difficult. Turkmenistan is dominated by a pervasive cult of personality extolling President Niyazov as Turkmenbashi ("Leader of all Turkmen"). His face adorns many everyday objects, from banknotes to bottles of vodka. The logo of Turkmen national television is his profile. The two books he has written are mandatory readings in schools and public servants are quizzed yearly about their knowledge of its contents. It's also common in shops and homes. Many institutions are named after his mother. All watches and clocks made must bear his portrait printed on the dial-face. A giant 15-meter (50 feet) tall gold-plated statue of him stands on a rotating pedestal in Ashgabat, so it will always face into the sun and shine light onto the city. President Niyazov has recently proclaimed that anyone who reads his book Ruhnama three times will "become more intelligent, will recognise the divine being and will go straight to heaven"[1].
A slogan popular in Turkmen propaganda is "Halk! Watan! T�rkmenbashi!" meaning "People! Motherland! Leader!". Niyazov renamed the days of the week after members of his family and wrote the new Turkmen national anthem/oath himself.
Foreign companies seeking to exploit Turkmenistan's vast natural gas resources have cooperated with Niyazov since he also controls access to the natural resources. His book Ruhnama (or Rukhnama), which is expected to be revered in Turkmenistan almost like a holy text, has been translated into 32 languages and distributed for free among major international libraries[2].
While the constitution provides for freedom of the press, the government has full control of all media. Only two newspapers, Adalat and Galkynysh, are nominally independent, but they were created by presidential decree. Cable TV, which had existed in the late 1980s, was shut down.
Activities of all but the officially recognized Russian Orthodox and Sunni Muslim faiths are severely limited. Religious congregations are required to register with the government, and individual parishes must have at least 500 members to register. Severe measures are directed toward religious sects that have not been able to establish official ties of state recognition, especially Baptists, Pentecostalists, Seventh-day Adventists, Hare Krishna, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Bah�'�s. Practitioners of these sects have allegedly been harassed, imprisoned, and/or tortured, according to some outside human rights advocacy groups.
Corruption continues to be pervasive. Power is concentrated in the president; the judiciary is wholly subservient to the regime, with all judges appointed for 5-year terms by the president without legislative review. Little has been done to prosecute corrupt officials.
Turkmenistan refuses to join any international organization, because of its "status of permanent neutrality," which was accepted by the UN General Assembly on December 12, 1995.
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium You know why it was fair? Because what happened in Chechnya after Russians withdrew in 1996 was terrible. Chechen warlords established wahhabism and martial law in their defacto independent republic. Many murders have happened then - the republic became home to drug, sex slave, prostitute trade. Human trafficking was big there, and Russian mafia happily sapped in the market. Then the Chechen warlords grew bold at Russian tolerance of the situation, and they attempted to invade Dagestan to expand their radicalism and unite with the wahhabists in Dagestan. And thats how the second war started, in addition to the apartment bombing in mainland Russia. |
I'm not ignoring the fact that Russia is emerging at the moment and it will take time to get things done in a proper way, but honestly I don't believe that it would be able to reach the same level of life as in Europe or in the North America at all.
The Russians are very different from other nations. It might seem as a platitude but their mentality tends to taint everything their do. Most of the Russians are very frail, apathetic and they boast with that. I find it very confusing and difficult to understand, because in fact the nation itself is very smart and pragmatic.
Delving into the history, I found 2 main types of Russian character. People of first one (typical example Peter the Great) are able to see the pros and the cons of the situation inside the country and they are trying to mend it. They are traveling abroad, studying and trying to apply the foreign knowledge and way of life when coming back to home. Conversely, the second group of people resists to all the attempts to change it as hard as they can, do you know how ? simply BY DOING NOTHING. It's a fucking paradox. They are so reluctant to adopt a knowledge taken from somewhere else. They think they are doing thing the best way ever possible and there is no need to change it all.
I think that exactly what is happening in the government right now. From my opinion Putin is trying to influence the whole system and change a view of people working with him. But most of them are too dense and reluctant to any changes because they get used to the current way of things. Like when you always have an option to bribe someone to get something done quickly.
Of course it's quite simplified explanation, but if you are interested, try to read Peter I, and Anna Karenina by Alexey Tolstoy. Notice how he describes the events when somebody tries to apply gained knowledge to the Russian reality. I found it's very pitiful.
And coming back to the resent events, I don't think that illegal immigrants is the main problem of Russia today. Of course all what you've said is true, and every native Russian associates a word criminal with Georgian citizen. But again the current government must clamp down the corruption first instead expelling bunch of innocent gapes. I'm saying innocent because it's always like that in Russia, when something bad happens the people who punishmened haven't done anything wrong atl all.
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew I can agree that the west tend to make a lot more fuss about elections that are unfair to a pro-western candidate than vice versa, but ffs, you know the Chechen election wasn't fair or just (even though the results might have been the same under a fair election)! |
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