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A serious discussion about sampling-

What are your thoughts and opinions about sampling and when it is right or wrong? Should artists be able to use parts of other artists work in their own work? Is this sort of work able to stand up as an original piece? Do copyright laws against this sort of thing help or hurt artists?

What issues are raised by sampling in your mind and ultimately what is your opinion? Is this art form legitimate in all it's incarnations?

Have been thinking about this issue for quite a while now, and would love the opinion of some of you guys.

Cheers,

Greg

I remember Mr. Mystery putting it best the other day. Something like, "As long as it is the spice, and not the main course", I say sample away.

Take a sample, and make it your own, or use it in your own unique way, as opposed to just blatantly copying. Many of the best tracks have been done this way.

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Originally posted by david.michael I remember Mr. Mystery putting it best the other day. Something like, "As long as it is the spice, and not the main course", I say sample away.

How do you think we should go about legally defining that? Creative Commons Liscences? There are some very problematic legal issues that surround this topic- How do you think they should be addressed?

I think a strong argument for sampling would quite simply be the Beastie Boys album "Paul's Boutique." A completely original piece of work that was pieced together masterfully. One of the greatest albums of all time, period, and it wouldn't exist without excessive sampling.

But I'll be interested to see where this discussion goes, because there are many, many arguments on the other side of the fence.

Nice thread

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Originally posted by david.michael I remember Mr. Mystery putting it best the other day. Something like, "As long as it is the spice, and not the main course", I say sample away.

That was his opinion on using percussion loops, not entire parts taken from other tracks.

Sampling = no go, unless the elements are twisted/altered beyond recognition.

ROFL imagine sampling the breakdown of out of the blue then on the buildup, chuck something random in there

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael I remember Mr. Mystery putting it best the other day. Something like, "As long as it is the spice, and not the main course", I say sample away. Take a sample, and make it your own, or use it in your own unique way, as opposed to just blatantly copying. Many of the best tracks have been done this way.

I think that's definitely the best argument from an idealist point of view.

Greg - The second series of questions you asked, the legal questions, are definitely an interesting side of the debate, as I really only look at this as an ethical/artistic issue and not from the "business" side of it.

Even Artists such as RJD2 who's work is almost entirely based on aquired samples. Surely enough he has clearance for most, the major ones for sure- I have however read reviews about his work that claim:



"RJD2 is so good you almost forget he's just a DJ!"



This statement blatantly undermines all of his work-

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Originally posted by Allied Nations "RJD2 is so good you almost forget he's just a DJ!"

Anyone who would say such a foolish thing is most certainly not at all familiar with RJD2.

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Originally posted by TOR That was his opinion on using percussion loops, not entire parts taken from other tracks. Sampling = no go, unless the elements are twisted/altered beyond recognition.

I know what he was referring to, but I figured it applied here.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "sampling" is. Cutting and pasting 30 seconds of a track in the middle of your own is obviously just stealing work and not being creative. (For example, if you cut a breakdown of a song and use it as your own, and then pick up your track where you left off... unacceptable, IMO.)

Taking a sample, modifying it, and using it as a background element or modifying it beyond recognition and making your own creation out of it is just another form of creativity and is acceptable in my book.

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Originally posted by RJT I think that's definitely the best argument from an idealist point of view. Greg - The second series of questions you asked, the legal questions, are definitely an interesting side of the debate, as I really only look at this as an ethical/artistic issue and not from the "business" side of it.

It is an ethical/artistic debate, however, a lot of this is buisness and there is money going around because of these works and for the most part the reason samples go uncleared is because there's a money issue. Sure, there are sometimes artistic conflicts about in what ways the original artist wants his/her work used, but for the most part its a question of money.

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael I know what he was referring to, but I figured it applied here. I guess it depends on what your definition of "sampling" is. Cutting and pasting 30 seconds of a track in the middle of your own is obviously just stealing work and not being creative. (For example, if you cut a breakdown of a song and use it as your own, and then pick up your track where you left off... unacceptable, IMO.) Taking a sample, modifying it, and using it as a background element or modifying it beyond recognition and making your own creation out of it is just another form of creativity and is acceptable in my book.

What if it sounded really really fucking good? Why can't I make a piece of music out of other pieces of music? Why isn't this art?

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Originally posted by Allied Nations It is an ethical/artistic debate, however, a lot of this is buisness and there is money going around because of these works and for the most part the reason samples go uncleared is because there's a money issue. Sure, there are sometimes artistic conflicts about in what ways the original artist wants his/her work used, but for the most part its a question of money.

Don't disagree at all with any of that, money makes the world go round, right?

But I guess I'd just never thought about it from that point of view before. Sure, I knew that samples had to be licensed, but honestly figured if you did it right, surely there wouldn't be a problem. Admittedly, that's an INCREDIBLY idealistic viewpoint and certainly doesn't take into account business factors, it's just the first lens that pops into my mind when I think about the question.

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Originally posted by Allied Nations What if it sounded really really fucking good? Why can't I make a piece of music out of other pieces of music? Why isn't this art?

I'm not sure I understand... perhaps you misread something I posted?

when it comes to sampling i see two different categories. sampling structural parts of a song i.e. kick drums, snares, bla bla bla...and sampling vocal or effects.

i don't necessarily see a problem with either of these, but of course it needs to be kept original.


one thing i don't like about sampling is i think it perhaps makes people a little less inclined to learn how to use their equipment and make their own sounds. i think that's something that is really important in a producer. if you look at all the best producers out there, they are always fresh sounding and have beautiful sounds in their work and it's because they really understand how to manipulate the technology to what they want.

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Originally posted by david.michael I'm not sure I understand... perhaps you misread something I posted?

No, I think I understand perfectly - you think samples should only be a small part of a tune. Number one, how do you define small part or background element and why do I have to follow those guidelines?

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Originally posted by Allied Nations What if it sounded really really fucking good? Why can't I make a piece of music out of other pieces of music? Why isn't this art?

What it all comes down to is where do we draw the line? What is appropriate and inappropriate with regard to sample use?

I think it 's exceptionally hard to define unless we're talking about specific works. Until you hear a piece, you can't really have an informed opinion on it, and when you're talking about appropriate sample use in a track that doesn't exist, it is near impossible to set a rigid guideline regarding broad or general rules for using samples.

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Originally posted by Allied Nations What if it sounded really really fucking good? Why can't I make a piece of music out of other pieces of music? Why isn't this art?

That would be a remix, wouldn't it?

@ david.michael: thanks for clarifying your initial post.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller when it comes to sampling i see two different categories. sampling structural parts of a song i.e. kick drums, snares, bla bla bla...and sampling vocal or effects. i don't necessarily see a problem with either of these, but of course it needs to be kept original. one thing i don't like about sampling is i think it perhaps makes people a little less inclined to learn how to use their equipment and make their own sounds. i think that's something that is really important in a producer. if you look at all the best producers out there, they are always fresh sounding and have beautiful sounds in their work and it's because they really understand how to manipulate the technology to what they want.

+1, excellent post.

The bold part is something I admittedly still have to work on as a producer. Not necessarily with sampling so much as using pre-made (or only moderately modified) synth patches, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller when it comes to sampling i see two different categories. sampling structural parts of a song i.e. kick drums, snares, bla bla bla...and sampling vocal or effects. i don't necessarily see a problem with either of these, but of course it needs to be kept original. one thing i don't like about sampling is i think it perhaps makes people a little less inclined to learn how to use their equipment and make their own sounds. i think that's something that is really important in a producer. if you look at all the best producers out there, they are always fresh sounding and have beautiful sounds in their work and it's because they really understand how to manipulate the technology to what they want.

True, but I know some producers who know their shit inside out but still chose to steal all their kicks from old 70s disco records never even thinking about having those samples cleared. Is that ok?

quote:

Originally posted by Floorfiller one thing i don't like about sampling is i think it perhaps makes people a little less inclined to learn how to use their equipment and make their own sounds. i think that's something that is really important in a producer. if you look at all the best producers out there, they are always fresh sounding and have beautiful sounds in their work and it's because they really understand how to manipulate the technology to what they want.

By the same token, people can learn how to use and manipulate new and different technologies to alter and use samples in new and interesting ways that can be wholely unique.

A "master" sampler can should be able to use or alter samples so you have little to no idea what, if any, samples they're using.

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Originally posted by Allied Nations True, but I know some producers who know their shit inside out but still chose to steal all their kicks from old 70s disco records never even thinking about having those samples cleared. Is that ok?

If nobody knows about it, sure

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Originally posted by Allied Nations No, I think I understand perfectly - you think samples should only be a small part of a tune. Number one, how do you define small part or background element and why do I have to follow those guidelines?

No, I don't think it has to be a small part of a tune. What I was referring to is just taking an entire section of song and using it as an entire section of your own, essentially.

quote:

Originally posted by RJT What it all comes down to is where do we draw the line? What is appropriate and inappropriate with regard to sample use? I think it 's exceptionally hard to define unless we're talking about specific works. Until you hear a piece, you can't really have an informed opinion on it, and when you're talking about appropriate sample use in a track that doesn't exist, it is near impossible to set a rigid guideline regarding broad or general rules for using samples.

So each sample work should be reviewed in an individual basis?

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Originally posted by TOR That would be a remix, wouldn't it? @ david.michael: thanks for clarifying your initial post.

What is a remix and how is it different from any other work of art?

quote:

Originally posted by RJT If nobody knows about it, sure

What about that drummer in the 70's who recorded that kick? What about owner of that song it was in? Should these people be cut out of the loop completely?

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