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Gack! The dems just threw Virginia

You just can't write this stuff folks. Well maybe you can. George Allen going for blood.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashaw.htm

quote:

The press release, as provided by the Allen Campaign: WEBB�S WEIRD WORLD The Author�s Disturbing Writings Show a Continued Pattern of Demeaning Women � Some of Webb�s writings are very disturbing for a candidate hoping to represent the families of Virginians in the U.S. Senate. � Many excellent books about the United States military and wartime service accomplish their purposes, and even win awards, without systematically demeaning women, and without dehumanizing women, men and even children. � Webb�s novels disturbingly and consistently � indeed, almost uniformly � portray women as servile, subordinate, inept, incompetent, promiscuous, perverted, or some combination of these. In novel after novel, Webb assigns his female characters base, negative characteristics. In thousands of pages of fiction penned by Webb, there are few if any strong, admirable women or positive female role models. Why does Jim Webb refuse to portray women in a respectful, positive light, whether in his non-fiction concerning their role in the military, or in his provocative novels? How can women trust him to represent their views in the Senate when chauvinistic attitudes and sexually exploitive references run throughout his fiction and non-fiction writings? � Most Virginians and Americans would find passages such as those below shocking, especially coming from the pen of someone who seeks the privilege of serving in the United States Senate, one of the highest offices in the land: � Lost Soldiers: �A shirtless man walked toward them along a mud pathway. His muscles were young and hard, but his face was devastated with wrinkles. His eyes were so red that they appeared to be burned by fire. A naked boy ran happily toward him from a little plot of dirt. The man grabbed his young son in his arms, turned him upside down, and put the boy�s penis in his mouth.� Bantam Books, NY, 1st Edition, 2001, (hard cover), page 333. Quote is from para. 10,.Chap. 34. � Something to Die For: "Fogarty . . . watch[ed] a naked young stripper do the splits over a banana. She stood back up, her face smiling proudly and her round breasts glistening from a spotlight in the dim bar, and left the banana on the bar, cut in four equal sections by the muscles of her vagina." William Morrow and Company, Inc., NY 1991, 1st Ed. (hardcover), p. 36. Avon Books, New York, 1992 (Mass-Market paperback edition), p. 35 Quote is from para. 29, Chap. 2 �The South China Sea,�, Section 2 � A Country Such as This: "[He] could see Jawbone and Ashley Asthmatic [two guards at a Vietnamese prison camp] napping together in the grass. They faced inward, their arms entwined. It looked like they were masturbating each other. It didn't surprise him. � It was common to see men holding hands, embracing, playing with each other. Some of them [the guards] had wanted him. He could tell in those evanescent moments between his bao cao bow, the obligatory deference when a guard entered his cell, and the first word or blow that followed it� Quick, grinding voices, turgid with repressed passion. An exploratory reaching of the hand near his groin�� Doubleday & Co., Garden City, NY, 1983 (hardcover); page 396. Bluejacket Books, 2001 (Trade paperback edition), page 396 Page numbers are the same in the Naval Institute Press (paperback) edition, 1983. Quote is from fifth para, Part 5 �A Country Such As This,� Chap. 24, Section 1 � A Sense of Honor: �Nurse Goodbody, dark and voluptuous (Lenahan had forgotten her actual name, it was something long and Italian), was a bedtime friend to many of the doctors in Bethesda. She had hinted to Lenahan that she simply could not contain herself. Doctors tending to patients, she explained, aroused her. Morphine Mary (again Lenahan could not remember her exact name) was a thin, nervous drill sergeant type, a disciplinarian who did not allow her patients even to complain. Lenahan was convinced that Morphine Mary did not even sleep with her husband. She wasn�t bad looking, he mused again, staring at her thin frame. If she�d just get laid every now and then she�d mellow out and stop being such a damn witch.� (p. 164) (Lenahan brings Goodbody home with him and has sex, pp. 188-190) Prentice-Hall, New York, 1981 (hardcover) Bantam, New York, 1982 (Mass-Market paperback edition), p. 164 Trade paperback edition, Bluejacket Books, 1995, p. 164 Quote is from fourth para in Part 3, �Chapter 4:1600� � Something to Die For: "[Fogarty] has been thinking of the firm, springy skin and the sweet smells of a young Filipina woman named Maria in whose bed he had spent three nights almost twenty years ago. . . . She was a deliciously bad young woman. . . . On the second night, he had brought her a box of Godiva chocolates . . . . he had awakened to find her in the bathroom, sitting on the toilet with her knees underneath her chin, eating chocolates and counting her rosary beads as she prayed." William Morrow and Company, Inc., NY 1991, 1st Ed. (hardcover), p. 32. Avon Books New York, 1992 (Mass-Market paperback edition), p. 30 Quote is from third para in Chapter 2 �South China Sea,�, Part 2 � Something to Die For: "We're on our way to becoming the world's recreational center, a nation [USA] not to be taken seriously. Where are we still the undisputed leader? Music. Movies. Fast food. Drugs. . . . the billboards fifty years from now as you come over the bridge and stop at the tollbooths outside Manhattan: A smiling beautiful naked woman, and the sign saying AMERICAN ASS IS OUR MOST IMPORTANT PRODUCT." William Morrow and Company, Inc., NY 1991, 1st Ed. (hardcover), p. 199. Avon Books New York, 1992 (Mass-Market paperback edition), p. 237 Quote is from para. 38, Chap. 13, Part 1, (five paras before Part 2). � Fields of Fire: Snake (the protagonist) sees his mother on the bed: "She looked as if she were carefully attempting to re-create a picture from some long-forgotten men's magazine . . . . She was naked underneath the robe . . . . and the robe fell loosely away, revealing her. Snake shrugged resignedly." Prentice-Hall, New York, 1978 (Hardcover, 1st edition), p. 8 Bantam Books "mass market [paperback] edition" published in Sept. 2001. p. 9. Quote is from paragraphs 18-23, Part 1 �The Best We Have�, Section 1 (NOTE: Part 1 is after the Prologue) � Fields of Fire: "He saw the invitation with every bouncing breast and curved hip. . . . He was thirteen. . . . She was fifteen . . . . In a few moments she drew him to her and he murmured in his quiet voice, 'I am still small.' 'You are large enough,' she answered. And he found he was." Prentice-Hall, New York, 1978 (Hardcover, 1st edition), pp. 211-212 Bantam Books "mass market [paperback] ed." published in Sept. 2001, pp. 280-81. Quote is from paragraphs 8-20, Part 2 �The End of the Pipeline,� Chapter 24 � A Sense of Honor: �� that is, if you knew who your sister was, Brustein, and if she�d been born with anything between her legs except an asshole, I�d be happy to bring some class to your low-rent name by knocking the bitch up.� (p. 223) Prentice-Hall, New York, 1981 (hardcover) Bantam, New York, 1982 (Mass-Market paperback edition), p. 223 Trade paperback edition, Bluejacket Books, 1995, p. 223 Quote is from 17th para in Part 4, �Chapter 7:1930� � A Sense of Honor: �You wouldn�t have believed it, Swede. She just dropped her britches and lifted up her skirt and pissed like a man. Didn�t lose a drop, either. Not a drop.� (p. 183) Prentice-Hall, New York, 1981 (hardcover) Bantam, New York, 1982 (Mass-Market paperback edition), p. 183 Trade paperback edition, Bluejacket Books, 1995, p. 183 Quote is from 23rd para in Part 3, �Chapter 8: 2300� END

Pretty sick stuff.


EDIT: Just saw that Q had posted this in the elections thread, but this is so juicy it deserves a thread of its own. I can't wait to hear the defense of this.

Re: Gack! The dems just threw Virginia

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I can't wait to hear the defense of this.

They are works of fiction and have nothing to do with his political policies?

Not surprising to see Drudge involved in spreading this this sort of irrlevent pap two weeks from an election, by the way. I wonder if he was sufficiently morally outraged to report indignantly on Scooter Libby's novel as well?

quote:

At age ten the madam put the child in a cage with a bear trained to couple with young girls so the girls would be frigid and not fall in love with their patrons. They fed her through the bars and aroused the bear with a stick when it seemed to lose interest.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/conte...ta_talk_collins

I'm not going to comment on content, because it's quite easy to take things out of context. That's why it doesn't surprise me that this is coming out now, as it won't leave much time for people to get more than the sound bytes they chose to reveal before the election in 10 days.

There's lots of great fiction with graphic sexual descriptions, but then again, many Americans wouldn't know that because they don't read.

quote:

"It's not a sexual act," Webb told Plotkin regarding the "Lost Soldiers" excerpt. "I actually saw this happen in a slum in Bangkok when I was there as a journalist." "The duty of a writer is to illuminate his surroundings," he added. Coincidentally, a Cambodian woman in Las Vegas is facing sexual assault charges for performing a similar act on her young son, according to an Oct. 14 report in the Las Vegas Review-Journal. The article quotes an office manager for the Cambodian Association of America, who described the act as a sign of respect or love. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics...L20061027c.html

Why let context and facts get in the way of a good smear campaign? So when can we jump on the anti-McCain bandwaggon for praising this book?

Also someone please explain to me why Lynne Cheney and Bill O'Reilly support incest?

Man. These rationalizations are great. Fiction it may be, but I don't think it's fiction that will sit well on a lot of voters' stomachs. Hey, maybe Mark Foley's IMs were just one crazy crackpot typing his fictional fantasies down on an Internet window. Yeah, they're only words--what's the harm? What a double-standard.

Re: Gack! The dems just threw Virginia

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I can't wait to hear the defense of this.

Well, the matter hardly warrants a moment's attention, but if you insist...

quote:

Some of Webb�s writings are very disturbing for a candidate hoping to represent the families of Virginians in the U.S. Senate.

Some might say that those who are easily disturbed are such because they are weak-minded.

quote:

Many excellent books about the United States military and wartime service accomplish their purposes, and even win awards, without systematically demeaning women, and without dehumanizing women, men and even children.

... and? Many novels win awards without containing a lot of things, but the diversity of literature is itself valuable, even those aspects of it which some might find "disturbing."

Also, if the accusation is to be made that Webb's books demean women "systematically," then it should be supported with some sort of rationale. Please describe the specific parameters of the system.

quote:

Webb�s novels disturbingly and consistently � indeed, almost uniformly � portray women as servile, subordinate, inept, incompetent, promiscuous, perverted, or some combination of these. In novel after novel, Webb assigns his female characters base, negative characteristics. In thousands of pages of fiction penned by Webb, there are few if any strong, admirable women or positive female role models.

I fail to see the relevance. The suggestion that the type of characters that an author chooses to write is representative of their feelings regarding a gender is an obvious non-sequitur.

quote:

Most Virginians and Americans would find passages such as those below shocking, especially coming from the pen of someone who seeks the privilege of serving in the United States Senate, one of the highest offices in the land:

How embarassing for Virginia and America.

quote:

[list of innocuous quotations]

Nothing here strikes me as particularly disturbing, nor especially demeaning to women in general. I also noted that none of his supposedly disrespectful references towards women in his non-fiction were included. You might even say that such an omission is conspicuous.

This feeble attempt to disparage Webb because he fails to portray war and individuals surrounded by it in an upbeat, positive way might have comedic value if it weren't being espoused by the campaign of a man who has been placed in such a position of authority. Instead, it only serves as a grim reminder of the failures of our political system.

Re: Re: Gack! The dems just threw Virginia

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Well, the matter hardly warrants a moment's attention, but if you insist...

On the contrary--I think it's getting plenty of attention. I have condemned both sides of the aisle for things that I find deeply disturbing. Amazing how some of you guys can draw such a clear line in the sand over this issue when it is so gray it's funny.

One of the most level-headed liberals I work with (and a good friend) agrees that this issue (no matter how much you think it's just "meaningless fiction") is likely to do Mr. Webb in. My god it's just fucking gross. I've seen and read some pretty fucking disturbing tings in my life, but this is some pretty disturbing stuff. If you don't even flinch when you read that...you are more deeply depraved than I.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Man. These rationalizations are great. Fiction it may be, but I don't think it's fiction that will sit well on a lot of voters' stomachs. Hey, maybe Mark Foley's IMs were just one crazy crackpot typing his fictional fantasies down on an Internet window. Yeah, they're only words--what's the harm? What a double-standard.

Are you equating sexual assualt on a minor with a fictional novel that portrays an actual South East Asian custom?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Man. These rationalizations are great. Fiction it may be, but I don't think it's fiction that will sit well on a lot of voters' stomachs. Hey, maybe Mark Foley's IMs were just one crazy crackpot typing his fictional fantasies down on an Internet window. Yeah, they're only words--what's the harm? What a double-standard.

Have you read American Psycho? Most of that fiction wouldn't sit well with voters, but if I actually though Brett Easton Ellis would be a good politician, his writings in that book (and others of his) wouldn't affect me.

Regarding Foley, come on, we all know that wasn't fiction. He admitted it.

Also, the response from CNN's political ticker.

quote:

Webb says Allen's attacks are latest 'smear' RICHMOND, Virginia (CNN) -- Democratic Virginia Senate candidate Jim Webb Friday called the circulation of several sexual passages from his novels by his Republican opponent, Sen. George Allen, a baseless character assassination. The first, and most disturbing, quote describes a shirtless man picking up a naked boy who runs toward him. The book describes what happens after the man picks up the boy and turns him upside down. It comes from the 2001 book "Lost Soldiers." "Let me explain what that was," Webb told the Washington Post Radio. "I actually saw this happen in a slum of Bangkok and when I was there as a journalist. A man placing his lips on his son's private parts. ...And the duty of a writer is to illuminate the surroundings. "There is nothing that's been in any of my novels that, in my view, hasn't been illuminating the surroundings or defining a character or moving a plot," Webb added. The former Navy secretary said that to pull excerpts from his writings "and force them on people, sort of, like pound them over the head with them" rather than having someone read the entire book "is just a classic example of the way this (Allen) campaign has worked. And you know, its smear after smear." "This is a Karl Rove campaign," Webb said, referring to the head of President Bush's 2004 re-election bid. "We have known this one was coming for quite some time."

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Are you equating sexual assualt on a minor with a fictional novel that portrays an actual South East Asian custom?

Not that action of assault, rather the lovely, tawdry, disgusting instant message conversation that we all got to read. I mean, it's just words after all. They should strike it from the record and not be admissible in court.

Drag 'em all out and shoot 'em. They're fucking sick.

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Have you read American Psycho? Most of that fiction wouldn't sit well with voters, but if I actually though Brett Easton Ellis would be a good politician, his writings in that book (and others of his) wouldn't affect me.

One of my favorite movies actually. I haven't had the time to read the novel though. Did Ellis actually run for public office? I probably wouldn't have voted for him though. I'd prefer my elected officials spend their time doing something more productive than imagining sucking their little sons' peepees and slicing bananas with vagina muscles.

I got $10 that says Webb loses almost entirely due to this well-timed GOP election ploy. I got a paypal account. Who wants in?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Not that action of assault, rather the lovely, tawdry, disgusting instant message conversation that we all got to read. I mean, it's just words after all. They should strike it from the record and not be admissible in court. Drag 'em all out and shoot 'em. They're fucking sick.

Are you equating sexual conversations with a minor with a fictional novel that portrays an actual South East Asian custom?

Re: Re: Re: Gack! The dems just threw Virginia

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka On the contrary--I think it's getting plenty of attention. I have condemned both sides of the aisle for things that I find deeply disturbing. Amazing how some of you guys can draw such a clear line in the sand over this issue when it is so gray it's funny.

Hence the distinction between "warrants" and "[is] getting."

quote:

One of the most level-headed liberals I work with (and a good friend) agrees that this issue (no matter how much you think it's just "meaningless fiction") is likely to do Mr. Webb in.

It's possible. "Instead, it only serves as a grim reminder of the failures of our political system."

quote:

My god it's just fucking gross. I've seen and read some pretty fucking disturbing tings in my life, but this is some pretty disturbing stuff. If you don't even flinch when you read that...you are more deeply depraved than I.

I'll take that as a compliment. It's amusing that in a war novel, what's really disturbing isn't the mass destruction or countless lives lost - it's the mildly lewd conduct.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Are you equating sexual conversations with a minor with a fictional novel that portrays an actual South East Asian custom?

Don't be so thick-headed.

I think you guys are getting to defensive to understand Shakka's point. Virginia is a high stakes game and this could be the stone that tips the scale away from Webb. Of course Allen is going to use this to his favor.

You can rationalize it as much as you want. No matter because its going to be the hot topic on the morning news. Compare it to Foley, compare it to whatever, the fact its even being discussed is bad for the Dems in VA.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Don't be so thick-headed.

I'm not. You're the one who initially equivocated the two. I assume then that you ackowledge that there's a clear distinction.

You live up there. If you're that comfortable with it, I implore you to vote for the guy. Certainly not something I'd ever want in one of my elected officials.

I acknowledge that peoples' thoughts are their own personal rights, no matter how dark and depraved they may be. It's not illegal, but it is certainly disturbing to read stuff like that. And Occ, it's not ALL some South Asian custom. There are several books being quoted/profiled so it seems more like Webb has a thing for underage sexually deviant fantasy. I really don't think the vaginal banana slicing is a custom. It sounds a lot more to me like some seriously fucked up fetish/fantasy. When you put that down on paper and sell it, you're opening yourself up to a lot of criticism. Where I'm from people like that are generally thought of as "creepy" and probably not fit for public office.

Certainly you can acknowledge that this isn't just typical "fiction?" Or do you have a bookshelf full of this stuff that you like to read between Grant's and Liar's Poker?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka One of my favorite movies actually. I haven't had the time to read the novel though. Did Ellis actually run for public office? I probably wouldn't have voted for him though. I'd prefer my elected officials spend their time doing something more productive than imagining sucking their little sons' peepees and slicing bananas with vagina muscles. I got $10 that says Webb loses almost entirely due to this well-timed GOP election ploy. I got a paypal account. Who wants in?

Oh, i'm still guessing he's fucked, but I don't think rightly so. As I said, it was a good ploy, they waited until 10 days before the election to drop this, giving him little time to react and explain. We all know how Americans view anything remotely sexually deviant, so this was an easy target.

Also, I said IF Easton Ellis would run, he didn't. The novel is WAY more graphic than the movie. The sick shit he does in that book is like 10x more graphic (and violent) than what's in those excerpts. One instance describes him sticking the tube of a terrarium into a semi-conscious woman's vagina and running a rat that he's been starving into it, allowing it to start eating her internally.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka You live up there. If you're that comfortable with it, I implore you to vote for the guy. Certainly not something I'd ever want in one of my elected officials.

Well if I lived in that shithole of a state I would vote for Webb. I certainly don't want a racist elected official and all macacas aside, Webb seems to have solid credentials from teh Reagan and Bush 41 administrations.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Well if I lived in that shithole of a state I would vote for Webb. I certainly don't want a racist elected official and all macacas aside, Webb seems to have solid credentials from teh Reagan and Bush 41 administrations.

I'd write in an independent. Maybe I'm more traditional, but I'm more than a little disturbed by all of this.

Edit: Riddle me this: If the tables were turned and it were George Allen that had written this stuff and Webb who had made the disparaging remarks, tell me the media would treat it the same way. No way in hell.

Fiction does not equal reality....but reality can be worse than fiction....look at the Republican party and our dear President and his administration...like the war in Iraq. The stuff our soldiers have done in Iraq is REAL and just as bad as some of the things in these excerpts that are FICTION, where's the outrage on the right towards what they've done? Oh wait..torture is okay in their playbook. They'd rather look at the trivial stuff, like a guy going to an NFL/Playboy Party (Harold Ford Jr), and now Webb's fictional novels. There's a lot of adult novels (which is what he writes) and movies..with just as graphic imagery (look at stuff Oliver Stone has made over the years). Because someone makes a movie or writes a book that is graphic...that automatically makes them immoral or not worth a vote? Steven King's novels are graphic, is he a sicko in real life? A little strange maybe, but surely he's not a psycho killer or a child predator. Seems quite silly..the Republicans are really drawing at strings here, they are desperate..and it's showing.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Fwhere's the outrage on the right towards what they've done?

There has been plenty of outrage. We hear about it every day ad nauseum. It probably takes up 2/3 of the PDD forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka There has been plenty of outrage. We hear about it every day ad nauseum. It probably takes up 2/3 of the PDD forum.

Outrage on the Republic party and Bush administration. I know they've said before they cadone what these soldiers over the years have done in Iraq and at Guantamano Bay and those CIA secret prisons, but they don't seem to be againist it either. Their priorities are wrong, morality isn't just about these silly stuff like gay marriage, graphic novels or movies, or any type of sexuality. It's much larger than this, and many Democrats (and some Republicans) try to look at the bigger picture when it comes to morality, and not worry about all of this trivial crap we hear from the right all the time. There are way more important things that should be addressed, like the issues, not what someone writes or what events they go to..like parties. It's about what they DO or WILL DO, that is important. And Webb has some very good ideas, not more of the same old corrupt Republican/Bush policies of the last six years that Allen supports.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Edit: Riddle me this: If the tables were turned and it were George Allen that had written this stuff and Webb who had made the disparaging remarks, tell me the media would treat it the same way. No way in hell.

How would the media treat it?

quote:

Originally posted by occrider How would the media treat it?

Clarify: Media and the other side of the aisle. For starters I'm sure there would've been an investigation demanded by now. It is something that, if the tables were in fact turned, would bring shame to the Bush administration. No question, the media and leftists everywhere would be on the issue like white on rice. Instead we mostly have a dismissive attitude saying things like, "oh, it's just fiction, it doesn't mean anything." As if it doesn't provide the slightest bit of insight into the mind of Webb. It may not be as big as some (like me) are making it out to be right now, but I certainly think it's more than you and others are willing to admit.

Are you telling me that you honestly believe that it wouldn't be handled differently?

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