TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- America: From Freedom to Fascism (MUST SEE)
Pages (3): [1] 2 3 »

America: From Freedom to Fascism (MUST SEE)

By Aaron Russo:



Google Video Link: [[ LINK REMOVED ]]


http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

This has got to be one of the most important documentaries to come out and every American should watch it. Occ & Shakka, you guys will definetly like this.

I was going too post this up last week but wasnt sure it was a repost.

First half of it is a bit boring, informative but a little long winded but Russo goes too a fair amount of effort too make sure its as well explained as he can. This one unlike a lot of Mike Moore films is something of a genuine documentary as much as that comes out of US cinema these days in that at least he tried too keep a bit of bias out of it and at least goes looking for the other side of the arguments point of view to try and present theirs. Not very much from them, which is suprising really as he's a well known figure in the entertainment industry so you'd think they'd have more too say.
Sometimes saying not very much is worse and I'm not sure if its his editing or just the simple fact that they dont respect him, or the government really just doesnt want too comment on it for some really dangerous reasons.

Unlike Mike Moore films which I lump generally into 'light entertainment' and political satire, or things like the 9-11 conspiracy movie which is floating around I just couldnt take very seriously at all. This is something which people in the US probably should take very seriously as should some other people in the world being the US is very influential in their daily lives in many direct and indirect ways.

The second half is a lot more hard hitting and managed too wake me up from the snooze I was starting too fall into after listening too income tax over and over
Perhaps it isnt as specific as the first half but he's thrown together a lot of things compellingly, so you'll watch it and he does present a pretty good argument there for what he sees as happening even if like me youre not quite sure what too make of it.

There is a valid concern about the long-term well-being of certain American freedoms. However, rehashing those tired tax protester arguments greatly detracts from one's credibility.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter However, rehashing those tired tax protester arguments greatly detracts from one's credibility.

Huh? How so?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Huh? How so?

b/c it's rather a petty argument IMO.

Arbiter might think differentlyt

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Arbiter might think differentlyt

Abiter's thinking=God

He isn't egotistical to say it out front. But he is egotistical to say he is unique among the rest of the populace and he won't give any backing as to why that is

The more information i see abt this american government, the more i go from active dislike of america as a nation to pity. i wonder when americans will grow their balls back and use all that bravado they like to flaunt around all the time to actually get their government to work for them. from glorious nation, to pathetic pawn, herein lies the future of america if you, the citizens of america, dont step up your game.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Huh? How so?

Because it represents a basic failure to understand what law really is.

quote:

Why do you always assume that the courts are right and the tax protesters are wrong? Couldn't the courts be wrong about what the Constitution means? Basically, the process of law is a process of consensus. We have a variety of procedures, some political, some judicial, and some bureaucratic, for determining what the law should be and how it should be applied. If we don't like the results, we have ways of changing the results, and when there are conflicts, we have ways of resolving conflicts. However, when the courts, the legislatures, and the voters all agree on what the law is, that is what the law is. The fact that some people believe that the law should be different means that they are free to argue their positions within the political system and attempt to change the results. In the case of the income tax, there is no conflict. The judicial branch, executive branch, and legislative branches of our government, and a majority of the voters, all agree that (1) an income tax is constitutional, (2) it applies to wages, (3) every citizen and resident of every state is required to file a tax return and pay the tax. That is what the law is. There is no question about it. When lawyers talk about what "the law" is, they are talking about how a judge will rule. Not how the judge should rule, or might rule, but will rule. Measured by that standard, this FAQ states what "the law" is, because a judge will rule against the tax protester arguments described above 100% of the time. Not 95% of the time, or even 99.999% of the time. 100.00%.

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Because it represents a basic failure to understand what law really is. http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

by the definition you yourself quoted it would not be a law anyways because judges have not ruled "100%" of the time in that manner, so your argument still doesn't apply

quote:

Originally posted by venomX by the definition you yourself quoted it would not be a law anyways because judges have not ruled "100%" of the time in that manner, so your argument still doesn't apply

Yes, they have ruled that way 100% of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Yes, they have ruled that way 100% of the time.

Are you serious, in that video alone theres about 10 examples, including supreme court rulings where the courts have ruled against the income tax. Im pretty sure that if searched, one could probably dig up a ton more examples.

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Are you serious, in that video alone theres about 10 examples, including supreme court rulings where the courts have ruled against the income tax. Im pretty sure that if searched, one could probably dig up a ton more examples.

There are a variety of issues that have gone to court related to income tax which have been ruled on in various ways, but no court has ever ruled that:

1. Income tax is unconstitutional,
2. income tax doesn't apply to wages, or
3. you don't have to file a tax return and pay that tax.

Many of this cases, such as the ones in that video, have been misappropriated by tax protestors in an attempt to use them to show something beyond what the ruling actually states. However, this does not lend their arguments any more strength.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter There are a variety of issues that have gone to court related to income tax which have been ruled on in various ways, but no court has ever ruled that: 1. Income tax is unconstitutional, 2. income tax doesn't apply to wages, or 3. you don't have to file a tax return and pay that tax. Many of this cases, such as the ones in that video, have been misappropriated by tax protesters in an attempt to use them to show something beyond what the ruling actually states. However, this does not lend their arguments any more strength.

Edit: After doing some research i stand corrected. It's annoying how much disinformation your people's country can produce on either side of an argument, its too much of a hassle to get unbiased information. Although i do think that the lack of straightforwardness shown in the video by the IRS and others is astounding. Of course some of the topic that the video just brushes on are relevant too, there are a lot of bills being passed in the USA that amount to bush being a dictator. Oh well, its not like the bulk of the population knows/cares about it.

I'm only 7 min. in and I'm already seeing a problem...

From Wikipedia...

quote:

Constitutional arguments Main article: Tax protester constitutional arguments Some tax protesters, conspiracy theory proponents, and others opposed to income taxes in general cite what they contend is evidence that the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution (removing any apportionment requirement for income taxes) was never "properly ratified" or that it was properly ratified but does not permit the taxation of individual income, or particular forms of individual income. One argument is based on the contention that the legislatures of various states passed bills of ratification with different capitalization, spelling of words, or punctuation marks (e.g. semi-colons instead of commas) (see, e.g., United States v. Thomas[1]). Another argument made by some tax protesters is that because Congress did not pass an official proclamation recognizing Ohio's year 1803 admission to statehood until 1953 (see Ohio Constitution), Ohio was not a state until 1953 and therefore the Sixteenth Amendment was not properly ratified (see Ivey v. United States[2] and Knoblauch v. Commissioner[3] in the referenced article). These arguments have been universally rejected by the courts.

>>Tax protester agruments<<

Now being that this is being rejected by the courts (not just a court) are we to assume that they are somehow in the pockets of the banks as well?

With Russo being a tax protester himself, I think I can guess the general gist without having to go through almost 2 hours...sorry Z.

Not that I enjoy paying taxes, don't get me wrong, but the easy way around it would be to just own a business which the tax system is geared for...

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Oh well, its not like the bulk of the population knows/cares about it.

Thats their choice I guess but I still find it astonishing that no one seems too care, I pay stupid amounts of tax every year on just about damn near everything.
Like, really stupid amounts of tax, big money.

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Edit: After doing some research i stand corrected. It's annoying how much disinformation your people's country can produce on either side of an argument, its too much of a hassle to get unbiased information. Although i do think that the lack of straightforwardness shown in the video by the IRS and others is astounding. Of course some of the topic that the video just brushes on are relevant too, there are a lot of bills being passed in the USA that amount to bush being a dictator. Oh well, its not like the bulk of the population knows/cares about it.

No shame in that, I had to do my research at one point as well. You're absolutely right that the video nevertheless raises some valid concerns, my point was only that it would be better if they didn't try to tow that line as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Because it represents a basic failure to understand what law really is. http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

Right, the law has nothing to do with the constitution in this country.

EDIT: I was being sarcastic in case you didn't pick up on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm only 7 min. in and I'm already seeing a problem... From Wikipedia... >>Tax protester agruments<< Now being that this is being rejected by the courts (not just a court) are we to assume that they are somehow in the pockets of the banks as well? With Russo being a tax protester himself, I think I can guess the general gist without having to go through almost 2 hours...sorry Z. Not that I enjoy paying taxes, don't get me wrong, but the easy way around it would be to just own a business which the tax system is geared for...

Alright, it's kind of hard for you to evaluate the arguments presented without even watching it.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Right, the law has nothing to do with the constitution in this country. EDIT: I was being sarcastic in case you didn't pick up on it.

Well there's no valid constitutional argument against income tax anyway. Read the same link if you have any doubts about that.

Really, you're only doing yourself a disservice by clinging to such a ridiculous idea.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Alright, it's kind of hard for you to evaluate the arguments presented without even watching it.

If the whole thing is about the rationalizing of a tax protester, no thanks...I'll save those two hours and just watch Battlestar Galactica...

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Well there's no valid constitutional argument against income tax anyway. Read the same link if you have any doubts about that. Really, you're only doing yourself a disservice by clinging to such a ridiculous idea.

Quoted from the link you originally provided:

quote:

The federal income tax is unconstitutional because it is a "direct tax" that must be apportioned among the states in accordance with the census. False. The 16th Amendment to the Constitution, ratified in 1913, clearly states that "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

That's the problem, it wasn't properly ratified. Ratification of an amendmant requires atleast 3/4 of the states approval which, to my knowledge, wasn't the case. Secretary of State Philander Knox fraudulently announced ratification.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r If the whole thing is about the rationalizing of a tax protester, no thanks...I'll save those two hours and just watch Battlestar Galactica...

Yeah and if anyone refuses to pay taxes, I will be showing up at your door....... lol

laz aka G-Man

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's the problem, it wasn't properly ratified. Ratification of an amendmant requires atleast 3/4 of the states approval which, to my knowledge, wasn't the case. Secretary of State Philander Knox fraudulently announced ratification.

You should have kept reading...
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#ratification

You're awfully quick to accept tax protestors' claims without verification, but it seems you actually go out of your way to avoid seeing evidence to the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX Yeah and if anyone refuses to pay taxes, I will be showing up at your door....... lol laz aka G-Man

You sell bud?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You sell bud?

i think youre paranoid enough

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.