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The Dutch ban Burqas

quote:

Dutch to ban wearing of Muslim burqa in public By Alexandra Hudson 1 hour, 49 minutes ago AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds. Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk will now draw up legislation which will result in the Netherlands, once one of Europe's most easy-going nations, imposing some of the continent's toughest laws against concealing the face. "The cabinet finds it undesirable that garments covering the face -- including the burqa -- should be worn in public in view of public order, (and) the security and protection of fellow citizens," the Dutch Justice Ministry said in a statement. The debate on face veils and whether they stymie Muslim integration has gathered momentum across Europe. The Netherlands would be the first European state to impose a countrywide ban on Islamic face coverings, though other countries have already outlawed them in specific places. The move by the center-right government comes just five days before a general election. The campaign has focused so far on issues like the economy rather than immigration because most mainstream parties have hardened their stances in recent years. Last December Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a proposal by far-right politician Geert Wilders to outlaw face-coverings and asked Verdonk to examine the feasibility of such a ban. Because veils were worn for religious reasons, she had feared new legislation could come into conflict with religious freedom laws. But she said on Friday this was not the case. Existing legislation already limits the wearing of burqas and other total coverings on public transport or in schools. France has banned the Muslim headscarf and other religious garb from state schools while discussion in Britain centers on limiting the full facial veil, or niqab. Italy has a decades-old law against covering the face in public as an anti-terrorism measure. Some politicians have called for this rule to be enforced against veiled Muslim women. The Muslim community estimates that only about 50 women in the Netherlands wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes. Dutch Muslim groups have complained a burqa ban would make the country's 1 million Muslims feel more victimized and alienated, regardless of whether they approve of burqas or not. "This will just lead to more girls saying 'hey I'm also going to wear a burqa as a protest'," Naima Azough, a member of parliament from the opposition Green Left, told an election campaign meeting for fellow members of the Moroccan community. Job Cohen, the Labour mayor of Amsterdam, said he opposed burqas in schools and public buildings, and said women wearing one who failed to get a job should not expect welfare benefits. "From the perspective of integration and communication, it is obviously very bad because you can't see each other so the fewer the better," he told foreign journalists. "But actually hardly anybody wears one ... The fuss is much bigger than the number of people concerned." Since the murder of anti-immigration maverick Pim Fortuyn in 2002, the Dutch have lost a reputation for tolerance, pushing through some of Europe's toughest entry and integration laws. Social and religious tensions have escalated in the last few years, exacerbated by the murder of film director and Islam critic Theo van Gogh by a Dutch-Moroccan militant in 2004. (Additional reporting by Emma Thomasson)

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117...ch_burqa_ban_dc

excellent!!! its a good start!

Does that mean they're gonna ban the wearing of balaclavas too? Or wrapping scarves around faces in the cold weather? just wondering...

i think newcomers have pushed themselves so much onto the countries thay have immigrated to that the original residents are pushing back. Banning christmas, easter and other traditions as well as all the job qouta schemes. Sadly a lot of people have had enough. It will happen here too very soon i think.

The hope in canada though is that a lot of 2nd and 3rd gen children of people of "minority" religion and colour are starting to think that banning christmas and job qoutas are stupid as well. Lets hope it doesnt come to drastic measures here. Because banning burqas and not respecting the rights of immigrants is just as bad as those immigrants not respecting the rights and traditions of dutch people, or canadians for that matter.

All i know is theres a lot of racism in Europe hopefully that wont happen here

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Originally posted by DarV All i know is theres a lot of racism in Europe hopefully that wont happen here

holland used to be even more tolerant than here. but the dutch have been pushed to their limits it seems

Its a very justified suggestion. Most European countries and especially North America have been fairly liberal when it comes to allowing people to follow their faith and practice their culture but at the end of the day, if these people have left their countries to live in another permanently, then they better get used to practicing that countries way of life.

Its double standards to practice your origin countries culture and religion while at the same time holding another countries passport. Most of the people have left their country for security or monetary reasons so why still take a part of that country that you like with you and mix it with an aspect of your resident country that you like. You cant expect everything to be your way.

i dont care if other cultures, traditions and religions are practiced here. I get pissed off when im told that mine cant be practised. And i think thats what this burqa backlash is all about.

as far as banning it in public i dunno...

but i am definitly for banning it for certain things like taking photos for IDs; ie. drivers licence.

or at security checkpoints like border corssings, or airports, etc..

Yes! freedom at its best...damn hypos

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Originally posted by sufee_b Yes! freedom at its best...damn hypos

i dont agree with this ban but i can understand the feeling behind it.

The simple solution would be for all parties to respect each other. That includes immigrants respecting the country they are moving to, and dutch people respecting the immigrants.

For far too long its been one way and not the other.

Re: The Dutch ban Burqas

Raveed,

I agree with you.

Also to add to your point. This ban will most likely generate a wave of angry protests, sparking riots, burning of flags,.. etc etc.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 i think newcomers have pushed themselves so much onto the countries thay have immigrated to that the original residents are pushing back. Banning christmas, easter and other traditions as well as all the job qouta schemes. Sadly a lot of people have had enough. It will happen here too very soon i think. The hope in canada though is that a lot of 2nd and 3rd gen children of people of "minority" religion and colour are starting to think that banning christmas and job qoutas are stupid as well. Lets hope it doesnt come to drastic measures here. Because banning burqas and not respecting the rights of immigrants is just as bad as those immigrants not respecting the rights and traditions of dutch people, or canadians for that matter.

Its time for a change of policy.

Re: Re: The Dutch ban Burqas

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Originally posted by jazzyrj Also to add to your point. This ban will most likely generate a wave of angry protests, sparking riots, burning of flags,.. etc etc.

I dunno about that, but it will piss off a lot of Dutch muslims and give more incentive to joint radical groups.

This law is nothing more than a retaliation for some bad Muslims did and it is unnecessary to create a law supposedly to deter terrorists when only 50 muslim women wear burqa.

Has there any indication that terrorists will use the burqa or similar cloths to carry out terrorist acts?

Seems quite silly to me to instead working for a better understanding and incorporation of Dutch muslim into dutch society, they are alienating them even further and that will cause more problems in the future.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Banning christmas, easter and other traditions as well as all the job qouta schemes.

wow thats just retarded. Getting each other to participate in cultural festivals is a great way to shed stereotypes we have about each other and become more accepting towards other cultures.

good news

I lived in Holland for four years and left out of disgust because they were too lenient on everything. Trust me, when people have too much freedom things get out of control. I lived in Amsterdam and could tell you endless stories of major drug problems, crime, stabbings on a daily basis, robberies, assaults, etc, etc.
I'm glad they're toughening up a little. Better late than never.

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Originally posted by Orbitus I lived in Holland for four years and left out of disgust because they were too lenient on everything. Trust me, when people have too much freedom things get out of control. I lived in Amsterdam and could tell you endless stories of major drug problems, crime, stabbings on a daily basis, robberies, assaults, etc, etc. I'm glad they're toughening up a little. Better late than never.

Thing is, banning the wearing of a burqa does not solve ANY of the problems you mentioned. Really- what does wearing a burqa do that harms society or the Dutch? Do I feel bad that women have to wear those? Yes. If this was Hollands way of 'liberating' women that have to wear these, I'd understand, but they claim its for security purposes, and thats not right. If they think it will prevent an attack, then I think that claim is ridiculous. If anyone wants to strap a bomb to themselves, they can do that with or without their face covered.

quote:

as far as banning it in public i dunno... but i am definitly for banning it for certain things like taking photos for IDs; ie. drivers licence. or at security checkpoints like border crossings, or airports, etc..

+1

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Originally posted by malek excellent!!! its a good start!

Absolutely. I say, the next step is segregate all of those burkha clad women and their terrorist brothers and husbands in ghetto's away from the locals. Then, the next time one of them blows something up, off to the concentration camps with them.

This step just shows the levels of intolerance and racism that bubbles under the surface in many countries in Europe. I only hope we never see such a day here in Canada.

Banning Burqa's in a country that has legalized soft drugs. What a joke!

edit--- Holland's Shift to the 'Right'...

How the Netherlands has become less liberal:

- Immigrants must pass an exam on Dutch language and culture before being allowed to move to the Netherlands. That does not apply to immigrants from US, Canada, Australia, Japan and other EU states.

- Legal immigrants already there must take a Dutch language course at their own expense.

- Immigrants guilty of any minor crime, such as shoplifting, during their first three years in the country can be deported.

- People can bring in a husband or wife only once they are 24 years old, and do not depend on welfare benefits. The measures are aimed at curbing international arranged marriages.

- 26,000 illegal immigrants are being deported, some of whom have been in the country for ten years and have established families.

- Clampdown on foreign imams working in mosques. They must show their appreciation of Dutch values.

- Increase in sentences for a range of crimes, and introduction of �zero tolerance� policing to cities such as Rotterdam.

- Tightening of rules on cannabis-selling coffee-shops and zero-tolerance approach to infringements. About half the coffee shops in Amsterdam have closed.

- The Netherlands is still liberal in some ways, however. In 2001, the country became the first in the world to legalise gay marriages. The Netherlands still has liberal rules on euthanasia, recently extending it to severely handicapped babies and children.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 For far too long its been one way and not the other.

Far too long huh...like the 300 years of colonization that the Indonesians had to endure, or the 100 years of Apartheid that resulted in the one way flow of racism from Holland to Africa ?

I'm glad to see many countries in Europe have an 'immigrant' problem. It's payback for the centuries of looting and plunder that took place during a time which most current Europeans would rather not talk about, or dismiss as being 'far too long ago'...

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Originally posted by Kytracid Far too long huh...like the 300 years of colonization that the Indonesians had to endure, or the 100 years of Apartheid that resulted in the one way flow of racism from Holland to Africa ? I'm glad to see many countries in Europe have an 'immigrant' problem. It's payback for the centuries of looting and plunder that took place during a time which most current Europeans would rather not talk about, or dismiss as being 'far too long ago'...

im talking about in our lifetime and in the sense of immigrants pushing their ways onto another country.

Ill gladly talk about the past but i wont apologize for it because im not the one responsible for what happened. To hold all europeans today responsible for the past is in itself racist. However what i spoke about is indeed happening TODAY which is why we as a society can correct the wrongs of today.

Ahhhh.

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Originally posted by tatgirl Thing is, banning the wearing of a burqa does not solve ANY of the problems you mentioned. Really- what does wearing a burqa do that harms society or the Dutch? Do I feel bad that women have to wear those? Yes. If this was Hollands way of 'liberating' women that have to wear these, I'd understand, but they claim its for security purposes, and thats not right. If they think it will prevent an attack, then I think that claim is ridiculous. If anyone wants to strap a bomb to themselves, they can do that with or without their face covered. +1

I guess I was referring to a 'general toughening up'. Not directly to Burqas. I do believe that people should be able to wear what they want. Especially if it is of religious or cultural significance. Sorry, didn't mean it that way.

I wish that immigrant groups in canada had respected canadian (and dutch) customs in the first place. Im not saying all, but clearly the most vocal of the bunch successfully inflicted political correctness on these societies. And now the masses are fed up.

Id like to see the day where common sense takes over. Where displays of religion reflect the community that they are in. For example in thornhill and north york id expect to see more menorahs than christmas trees whereas in aurora id expect to see the reverse.

Why should we ban traditions? If this madness still pervades our society when im a parent i will be sending my kid to a private school that still respects the traditions of canada while teaching about the traditions of other places. Ill make sure that school engages kids in christmas carols and christmas plays (not winter assemblies).. has a christmas tree (not a holiday tree) etc etc.

Im lucky to have gone to elementary school in the 80s. Because i went during that brief period where multicultralism actually meant enjoying your traditions as well as learning about others. I still remember the lords prayer in school and i still remember singing carols about silent night.

I remember my jewish teacher in grade 6, Mark Neugebauer. Not only did we do an assembly about the manger and little drummer boy, but his baby son played the role of jesus in the manger. He then proceeded to teach us chunnukah games and brought jewish holiday food. It was such a fun year and i learned alot about jewish culture un the process. And sadly im betting that NONE of that could happen now in a public school like back then.

i like this new rule that they want.. keep europe european and not muslim

i mean look at france

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