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-- Conform to our society, says Blair...

Conform to our society, says Blair...

Bit of a turnaround this.....

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In a speech at Downing Street, the prime minister said that tolerance was "what makes Britain" and warned "we must be ready to defend this attitude". The threat came not from "generalised extremism" but "a new and virulent form of ideology associated with a minority of our Muslim community". The Muslim Association of Britain said Mr Blair's speech was "alarming". Wars 'not helping' A spokesman said the prime minister should be "investing in our society" to help the deprived, rather than investing "millions and billions in illegal occupations" which had "not helped to promote multiculturalism in this country". ....... "When it comes to our essential values - belief in democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all, respect for this country and its shared heritage - then that is where we come together, it is what we hold in common."

Quite a bold move, but lets be honest is he wrong? I honestly recon that has to be one of his best speaches (not listened to it all just whats in the artice). Finally some common sence but not marking muslims out.

To be honest if they disagree with the last statement they disagree with what it is to be "British".

human nature doesn't change much does it?

some people have to be literally slapped around first before they recognize a threat as a threat.

meanwhile Abbas just stated publicly that "Hamas will NEVER recognize Israel" and that "Hamas will continue it's jihad to recapture Jeruselem". animals.

Tony Blair is, sad to say it really but one of the most disappointing politicians around. He started off with a bang and was quite well spoken, intelligent and dare I say it, even competent. But somewhere along the line and I'm not really up to date being a bit of an ex-pat who hasnt lived there for... oh 14years, I'm not sure where he fell off the rails.
But I do suspect its when he started listening to that dopey US sock puppet currently in office and maybe thats where the rot set in.
Infectious stupidity

Not quite sure about Britain being 'tolerant' either, it really depends where you are and how white you are in some places. Some of the more backwater towns and cities tend to dislike people who are obviously immigrants (ie: me) and it's reached points of severe social disturbance at times. A lot of the indians, asians and other europeans seem to click in alright but the pakistani communities tended to always end up looking bewildered, under seige and not quite sure what to do with themselves or very happy where they ended up.
And to be fair outside pressures from bigots, chavs, skins and nationalists tended to make them very close knit as well just for their own survival.

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Originally posted by Lilith Tony Blair is, sad to say it really but one of the most disappointing politicians around. He started off with a bang and was quite well spoken, intelligent and dare I say it, even competent. But somewhere along the line and I'm not really up to date being a bit of an ex-pat who hasnt lived there for... oh 14years, I'm not sure where he fell off the rails. But I do suspect its when he started listening to that dopey US sock puppet currently in office and maybe thats where the rot set in. Infectious stupidity

so you remember an eminently successful and admittedly brilliant middle aged man when you were 14, and ten years later he's changed all of a sudden and become a dope? and you attribute it (blow it off more like it) to him listening to an ignorant yank that wheres a cowboy hat?

There was nothing ever good of Mr. Blair. He was corrupt to even begin with, and his loyalty was never to the English people. He is nothing more than Bush's best friend because the both are members of the same secret society.

The western lifestly is an inferior one that encourages nothing but the accumulation of wealth by all means necessary. And than when you have made it you are taxed and that money goes to the inferior people who are too lazy to work; and any social welfare will only make them work less.

What a concept...

I say he's right, the way he said it is a bit random and rash but he is right.

If muslims wanna move to Britain then they should conform to British society, yes Britain is a free society but it is ITS OWN DISTINCT FREE SOCIETY, and we all know that "free" isnt 100% free there are limitations. IE: Actual laws/Taboos/Norms etc, its a matter of respect and a matter of GRATITUDE in my mind, you left your shithole of a country to go to paradise that is Britain, the least you can do is conform a bit.

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Originally posted by Q5echo meanwhile Abbas just stated publicly that "Hamas will NEVER recognize Israel" and that "Hamas will continue it's jihad to recapture Jeruselem". animals.

I'm not touching on whether you're right or wrong, but I was just wondering if you recognized that you utilize dehumanization in your methods of processing and filtering the information you receive about people you've been told are your "enemies".

IE: calling them animals, as if we don't display the exact same traits, just in different mediums.

Similar to how the "ancient" Romans justified the slaughter of foreigners who were not yet Romanized by equating them to Barbarians, yet us living today can look back at many old Roman traditions and rituals that we could comparatively consider barbaric.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby I'm not touching on whether you're right or wrong, but I was just wondering if you recognized that you utilize dehumanization in your methods of processing and filtering the information you receive about people you've been told are your "enemies". IE: calling them animals, as if we don't display the exact same traits, just in different mediums. Similar to how the "ancient" Romans justified the slaughter of foreigners who were not yet Romanized by equating them to Barbarians, yet us living today can look back at many old Roman traditions and rituals that we could comparatively consider barbaric.

I certainly hope this isn't a justification for those that Blair is pointing out.

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Originally posted by Q5echo and you attribute it (blow it off more like it) to him listening to an ignorant yank that wheres a cowboy hat?

Oh I was taking the piss for goodness sakes, hence the 'haha' at the end of it all.

You have to admit though, the war in Iraq effectively riled up a hornets nest of old hatreds just that bit more to the point where people locally where blowing up buses with backpacks of explosive. Not people from outside the country but young men from ordinary suburbs, but thats not the first time it's happened to England either. I also remember well enough when the IRA was in full swing and prone to do the same things on a fairly regular basis, however, they tended to phone in to keep the civilian casualties down, sometimes.
These guys won't, theyre just out there to kill as many ordinary people as they can because they hate and feel sufficiently upset enough that it's worth doing to the society that they live in.

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There was nothing ever good of Mr. Blair. He was corrupt to even begin with, and his loyalty was never to the English people. He is nothing more than Bush's best friend because the both are members of the same secret society.

Cite any sources for this secret society?

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The western lifestly is an inferior one that encourages nothing but the accumulation of wealth by all means necessary.

I don't know about that, personally I've not lately had to steal anything or hurt anyone in the process of making a decent living for myself.

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And than when you have made it you are taxed and that money goes to the inferior people who are too lazy to work; and any social welfare will only make them work less.

Well yes and no, I'm not fan of contributing to a welfare state for anyone but a lot of those taxes also end up providing emergency services, civil law enforcement, defence and utilities which everyone uses on a daily basis.
Of course, governments being governments they arent necessarily 'good' at spending that money like a corporation, they do waste a lot and get diverted in the interests of state which are dubious at best. Heck if I was employing the average minister in a company he'd have a menial, non-financial role in it in administration. Otherwise you may as well also be taking religious and life counciling from a reformed drug addict thats woken up and found god one morning (lol ), theyre both about as reliable and my expectations of their progress and process are low to awful.

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Actual laws/Taboos/Norms etc, its a matter of respect and a matter of GRATITUDE in my mind, you left your shithole of a country to go to paradise that is Britain, the least you can do is conform a bit.

Laws, respect and civilised behaviour aren't exactly a unique concept just to Britain, people know theyre not supposed to kill, injure and harass their fellow human beings. Deviations from that do tend to be labelled as being antisocial as well in other countries, if its a commonplace thing in a group of people then maybe its time to consider just how well recieved and educated they are on a countries customs prior to them coming into the country and gaining citizenship there and how well we educate ourselves about the people coming in with extensive background checks to keep the serious problems out.
I think if you where looking at the larger picture of immigration to the UK, you'll probably find most people do 'conform a bit' and don't cause any harm to anyone or offend anyones sensibilities with their dress, native language while theyre learning english and any other little customs they may have along with their religion.
By the same standard of conformity it might also be time to apply it to local residents there as well so theres no double standards being applied. For example lots of chav kids running around, wearing clothes from another culture (the US mostly) stealing cars, taking and dealing drugs, assaults and other crap they get up to without any apparent sterotypical villification for doing so.
Otherwise you may as well just be looking at the problem of conformity with 'tinted' glasses.

Many people are interpreting this speech to mean that its the Muslims that must make all the efforts. What Blair said, mainly, "democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all" carries the same weight for everyone. You can't expect anyone to conform to an intolerant society that rejects them. Asking someone to assimilate into the culture is one thing, but telling them to forget everything that makes them who they are and become something else is another. This level of tolerance works both ways.

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Originally posted by josh4 Many people are interpreting this speech to mean that its the Muslims that must make all the efforts. What Blair said, mainly, "democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all" carries the same weight for everyone. You can't expect anyone to conform to an intolerant society that rejects them. Asking someone to assimilate into the culture is one thing, but telling them to forget everything that makes them who they are and become something else is another. This level of tolerance works both ways.

That may be true, but it's the ones that want to bring their country with them and expect the host country to comply simply because they think they should that are the problem.

No one's mentioned anything about giving up their culture however, respecting your new country by abiding by a few laws isn't much to ask either.

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Originally posted by josh4 Many people are interpreting this speech to mean that its the Muslims that must make all the efforts. What Blair said, mainly, "democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all" carries the same weight for everyone. You can't expect anyone to conform to an intolerant society that rejects them. Asking someone to assimilate into the culture is one thing, but telling them to forget everything that makes them who they are and become something else is another. This level of tolerance works both ways.

+1

Respecting the law of the land (in a non-Muslims country) is an obligation as a Muslim btw, so long as your freedom to practice your religion isn't being infringed upon, for those of who don't know. "Conforming" is a wee bit different than that, and not something that one would think is an expectation in a "free society."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r That may be true, but it's the ones that want to bring their country with them and expect the host country to comply simply because they think they should that are the problem. No one's mentioned anything about giving up their culture however, respecting your new country by abiding by a few laws isn't much to ask either.

As far as I am aware, bringing their host country with them is not against the law. Neither is having values, beliefs, or ideologies associated with a particular group of people. Furthermore, assuming anyone outright to be on the level of a law-breaker just because they have those values, beliefs, or ideologies is another thing all together and wrong.

I'm not against Blairs speech and I think it is important for everyone to assimilate. I was discontented when the demonstrations in the U.S. for immigration carried Mexican flags. If you like Mexico then live in Mexico but when you're on American soil you're going to carry an American flag. However someone carrying a Mexican flag is not a criminal (unless they're an illegal alien but I digress).

If Muslims are to assimilate into Western culture they must accept Western values such as tolerance, equality of women, adoption of the main language etc. Though to expect that of them while not sharing the same values towards them is hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do, does not apply here.

I think what this speech really intended to do was to show that the old idea of multiculturalism and leaving these groups to their own devices does not work. I mean having small Muslim societies inside the main society does not work. They need to become integrated with the main society and become apart of the main hub of common living rather than a separate branch.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby I'm not touching on whether you're right or wrong, but I was just wondering if you recognized that you utilize dehumanization in your methods of processing and filtering the information you receive about people you've been told are your "enemies". IE: calling them animals, as if we don't display the exact same traits, just in different mediums. Similar to how the "ancient" Romans justified the slaughter of foreigners who were not yet Romanized by equating them to Barbarians, yet us living today can look back at many old Roman traditions and rituals that we could comparatively consider barbaric.

believe it or not i am a "thinking" man, if by that post admittedly does portray me as something less. i don't want to get in the moral relative weeds here for the sake of one word. i do, however, believe ours is the moral high ground from where the "struggle" or "jihad" can't easily reach no matter where ones morals are relatively here in the Western world. animals was a metaphor for something less than what reasonable, peaceful people struggle for.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r That may be true, but it's the ones that want to bring their country with them and expect the host country to comply simply because they think they should that are the problem. No one's mentioned anything about giving up their culture however,

I'd argue that alot of Muslims growing up in the west aren't any different from any other minority, in the sense that they've conformed to contemporary culture. Alot of them haven't aswell, but I fail to see why that's some "huge problem."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r respecting your new country by abiding by a few laws isn't much to ask either.

Yeah, like 99% of them are criminals.

Again:



Stop being so paranoid about the bullshit impression created in your head by images propagated in the mass media. I mean seriously, WTF. It's the oldest fucking trick in the book to (deliberately) present a group in a bad light/encourage apathy for obvious reasons . It's happened to virtually every minority, we're just the last. What's so surprising about that? I'll tell you what, the fact that (many) people still keep falling for it.

"Beh! Beh! Beh!"

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Originally posted by josh4 As far as I am aware, bringing their host country with them is not against the law. Neither is having values, beliefs, or ideologies associated with a particular group of people. Furthermore, assuming anyone outright to be on the level of a law-breaker just because they have those values, beliefs, or ideologies is another thing all together and wrong. I'm not against Blairs speech and I think it is important for everyone to assimilate. I was discontented when the demonstrations in the U.S. for immigration carried Mexican flags. If you like Mexico then live in Mexico but when you're on American soil you're going to carry an American flag. However someone carrying a Mexican flag is not a criminal (unless they're an illegal alien but I digress). If Muslims are to assimilate into Western culture they must accept Western values such as tolerance, equality of women, adoption of the main language etc. Though to expect that of them while not sharing the same values towards them is hypocritical. Do as I say, not as I do, does not apply here. I think what this speech really intended to do was to show that the old idea of multiculturalism and leaving these groups to their own devices does not work. I mean having small Muslim societies inside the main society does not work. They need to become integrated with the main society and become apart of the main hub of common living rather than a separate branch.

Well, you haven't really said anything I haven't already said, so why quote me?
Were you just agreeing then?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'd argue that alot of Muslims growing up in the west aren't any different from any other minority, in the sense that they've conformed to contemporary culture. Alot of them haven't aswell, but I fail to see why that's some "huge problem." Yeah, like 99% of them are criminals. Again: Stop being so paranoid about the bullshit impression created in your head by images propagated in the mass media. I mean seriously, WTF. It's the oldest fucking trick in the book to (deliberately) present a group in a bad light/encourage apathy for obvious reasons . It's happened to virtually every minority, we're just the last. What's so surprising about that? I'll tell you what, the fact that (many) people still keep falling for it. "Beh! Beh! Beh!"

I really don't know what you're going on about...you're reading waaay to much into my post.

I'm specifically referring to those dolts that think they can bring Shira Law into the Western world and figure we'd be just fine with that...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I really don't know what you're going on about...you're reading waaay to much into my post.

Nah, I think you project too much.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm specifically referring to those dolts that think they can bring Shira Law into the Western world and figure we'd be just fine with that...

You honestly think they have any ability to do that or it would ever happen?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Nah, I think you project too much.

Sorry, I normally don't try and post with a read-between-the-lines in mind.
Leads to too much ASS-umption and backpedaling I find.

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You honestly think they have any ability to do that or it would ever happen?

I would hope not lol

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Well, you haven't really said anything I haven't already said, so why quote me? Were you just agreeing then?

I accept your concession.

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