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Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0601878_pf.html

Richardson Speaks Against Border Fence

By JENNIFER TALHELM
The Associated Press
Wednesday, December 6, 2006; 8:46 PM


WASHINGTON -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson says a fence at the Mexican border authorized by Congress this fall "gets in the way" of U.S.-Mexico relations, and he wants the new Democratic Congress to reverse the legislation.

"The fence is very unpopular on the border in Texas and New Mexico, in Chihuahua," Richardson, a Democrat, said after meeting Wednesday with leaders from the Mexican state of Chihuahua. "So one of the most significant and constructive acts the U.S. Congress should take is to get rid of it."

Richardson said he will call on Congress not to build the fence during an address Thursday. He also will press lawmakers to approve a bill that secures the border and provides a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. While Congress and President Bush approved the 700-mile border fence, a widely debated bill overhauling immigration policy died in Congress this year.

Both statements ratchet up Richardson's national profile as he weighs whether he will run for president.

Technically, Richardson is in Washington this week for a Democratic governors' meeting. But his schedule also is packed with events that highlight his background as a former congressman, ambassador to the United Nations and energy secretary.

Wednesday, he met with Chihuahua officials at an event billed as a model for how the U.S. and Mexico should work together. Thursday, he will give the immigration speech at Georgetown University, and Friday, he will talk about energy independence.

Richardson is coy about his potential presidential plans, saying he will make a decision before the New Mexico legislature convenes Jan. 17. Other possible candidates are already formally exploring whether to run.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0601878_pf.html

=================

How bout no!

Re: Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Wednesday, he met with Chihuahua officials

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC How bout no!

Why not? Won't immigrants always find a way in? Wouldn't it be better to spend this money with the integration of the individuals that are in American soil? Isn't the US a country of immigrants anyway?

Re: Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC How bout no!

What are you worried about? A mexican immigrant "stealing" your job? if you have a nice well paid upper level job you most likely have nothing to worry about. If you dont you should have paid more attention in school instead of fearing that an immigrant will take that lovely cashier job at McDonald's away from you.

The whole wall thing scares me...

Not because I give a shit one way or another about immigrants... that's what this country is based around.

It's the fact that walls serve a scary purpose: to keep people out...

Or to keep people in.

Oh noes! They're going to shovel dirt for $1 less than I will per hour. Oh noes!

Re: Re: Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

quote:

Originally posted by Moongoose What are you worried about? A mexican immigrant "stealing" your job? if you have a nice well paid upper level job you most likely have nothing to worry about. If you dont you should have paid more attention in school instead of fearing that an immigrant will take that lovely cashier job at McDonald's away from you.

American's like Russian's are concerned about one thing about immigrants. That with current trends, immigrants having more children than naturalized citizens, the majority of the populace will not be the original kind. Rather they will be the descendants of the illegal immigrants, but who are naturalized citizens of that nation just are not white.

This is another one of those issues I tend to be a fence-sitter for (bad pun, I know). On the one hand, we need better measures to take care of our borders for security purposes - most folks agree with this. But what really seems to be the issues are two-fold:

1. The effects of leaky borders on areas such as our economy, education infrastructure, jobs, etc. etc. I haven't paid close enough attention on this to truly form an opinion one way or another. I know there's arguments that demonstrate different effects, so if others wish to present those arguments here I'd like to read them. What I do not know from my lack of reading on this is this:

-with the advent of more fences, does this also call for a major increase in manpower as well?

-with the advent of more fences, does that also call for a major crackdown on businesses that hire illegals?

2. What this is doing politically. This is interesting to me as well as we've seen a bit of courting by the Republicans of the latinos over the last coupla years. It worked in 2004 as the number of latino votes increased for Bush. However since the border fence issue has come about over the past year, and since there was a pretty hard-line push by Republican folks like Tancredo (R-Co) to crack down on illegals, this has had a seemingly negative effect on the Republicans politically.

Yesterday's election in a Texas district that was once pretty Republican and had a very established Republican booted out by a Democrat is a very good case in point:

quote:

Rep. Henry Bonilla�s (R-TX 23) loss last night confirms one of the Bush administration�s greatest fears: that a hard-line position on illegal immigration could cause Republicans long-term damage among the growing Latino vote. Bonilla was a strong supporter of the tough-on-immigration measures sponsored by the Republicans. He voted for the construction of the 700-mile border fence, and supported Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner�s bill penalizing workers who hire illegal immigrants. Based on the election results, it appears Latino voters � even among his previous supporters � turned on him and supported ex-Rep. Ciro Rodriguez (D). In Maverick County (95% Hispanic), Bonilla won a miniscule 14% of the vote. By contrast, Bonilla carried the county in his comfortable 2004 win, and President Bush even performed respectably here in 2004 when he won 40%. Val Verde County (76% Hispanic) has traditionally been a solidly pro-Bush, pro-Bonilla county. Bush carried it with 59% of the vote in 2004. But Bonilla barely carried it, only winning 51% there against Rodriguez. By contrast, the majority-white counties in the district remained strongly pro-Bonilla. Medina County (45% Hispanic) overwhelmingly voted for Bonilla, giving him 68% of the vote. That�s not much of a dropoff from Bush�s 70% performance there in 2004. On the day of the election Bonilla�s spokesman Phil Ricks expressed confidence that Hispanics were supportive of Bonilla�s stance on border security. �If you�re a legal citizen, you�re not in favor of illegal immigration. If you go through the process legally, illegal immigration insults you,� he said. Hispanic voters didn�t see things the same way. And if Bonilla � the only Mexican-American Republican in Congress � takes this much of a hit among Latinos, Republicans have much to be concerned about looking ahead to 2008. http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal....the_latino.html

From the standpoint of this issue being "right" or "wrong" - that's where I need to do my homework a bit more. However, politics does not always necessarily fall in line with ethics, so regardless of whether or not this is the "right" or "wrong" stance on the issue, it's seemingly backfiring on Republicans politically.

Re: Re: Re: Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

quote:

Originally posted by BiG-_BoSS American's like Russian's are concerned about one thing about immigrants. That with current trends, immigrants having more children than naturalized citizens, the majority of the populace will not be the original kind. Rather they will be the descendants of the illegal immigrants, but who are naturalized citizens of that nation just are not white.

But regarding America's populace there is no such thing as original kind.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

quote:

Originally posted by Zild But regarding America's populace there is no such thing as original kind.

Well sortof. I think there are at least three million who are natives of that land and the majority of Hispanic people are much more closely related to those three million than to European counterparts like the whites in America and Canada. So the original kind would most likly be those brown faced people that American's are so afraid of and want them out of the nation.

Here in Russia. We have always been a white majority but in decades to come we will be a muslim nation. With lots of brown people rather than a white people.

We don't mind immigrants. The LEGAL kind. Besides homeland
security concerns, the illegals stress our health care and
education systems.

We have NO problem people going the legal route. And we
already have millions of illegals doing the jobs we don't
want. I also wouldn't mind a way for them to get a path to
citizenship.

Most hispanics are for tighter border security. Most came here
legally and don't like having to support illegals too.

Us Americans have plenty of teens who can work McDonalds
and other crappy jobs along with the millions illegals
we already have. No one is afraid of losing their job
or whatever ignorant comments people made about that.

America has embaced immigrants since it's creation. No
one is scared of 'brown-people' and want them out...
If white canadians came streaming in from the north whites
would be like 'fuck that' too. You want to come in do it
the legal way or bitch at your own country to improve your
way of life instead of taking the easy way out and running
across the border.

I say 20 foot walls on both borders with machine gun nests
every few hundred yards. And land-mine the ******. Get a
visa and fly over if you want to come here.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC America has embaced immigrants since it's creation. No one is scared of 'brown-people' and want them out... If white canadians came streaming in from the north whites would be like 'fuck that' too. You want to come in do it the legal way or bitch at your own country to improve your way of life instead of taking the easy way out and running across the border.

What if I'm a Cindy Sheehan lover and trying to dodge the draft?

Oh wait....

France built a wall after WWI to keep German "immgrants" out. It was called the Maginot Line.

Those "immigrants" found a way around the wall that totally negated it.

Point being, if people feel a need to get somewhere, no wall will stop them. Especially when there are other ways in like Belgium or the ocean.

MrS

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC I say 20 foot walls on both borders with machine gun nests every few hundred yards. And land-mine the ******. Get a visa and fly over if you want to come here.

hhm.... come to think of it, the idea of putting land-mines is really cunning. This technique is famous for achieving great success, even after wars, as it makes sure no one will ever use the land for quite a while (if someone didn't have access to it in the past, why should someone be there in the future?). And Berlin has shown us that, when well implemented, great walls can be very effective. Maybe you guys should show China how to build these things.

Now that you mention it, something should also be done to prevent Cubans from coming from the sea. China's never built a submarine wall, there's an opportunity to do something brand new.

I must say that the second part of your argumentation is, itself, also brilliant. Visas are easily available, even if you're just a tourist, in spite of the terrorists incidents that eventually made America realise it needed to have a more friendly attitude toward other countries.

As you said, there are homeland security concerns, the illegals stress your health care and education systems (which are already not doing well, compared to the privileged Mexican reality). This is all extremely unfair, of course, given the fact that America has nothing to do with Mexico.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Most hispanics are for tighter border security. Most came here legally and don't like having to support illegals too.

Source?

Re: Re: Dem Presidential Hopeful wants Border Fence taken down...

quote:

Originally posted by Moongoose What are you worried about? A mexican immigrant "stealing" your job? if you have a nice well paid upper level job you most likely have nothing to worry about. If you dont you should have paid more attention in school instead of fearing that an immigrant will take that lovely cashier job at McDonald's away from you.

quote:

Felons, homeless replace illegal immigrants at Ga. poultry plant Associated Press Monday, November 27, 2006 STILLMORE, Ga. � A south Georgia poultry plant is busing in felons on probation and homeless men to fill jobs left empty since federal agents arrested illegal Mexican immigrants in raids two months ago. Each day, about 40 convicted felons are bused from Macon to work at the Crider Poultry plant here. Sixteen men from a homeless mission in Augusta have worked in the plant, and the mission is looking to send more. Crider President David Purtle said that's just a drop in the bucket for a plant operating at 450 employees, less than half of the 1,000 workers there before the raid. Purtle said the company is also spending more on hiring � paying to bus in the probationers, for example � and on training, because many of the new hires have poor attendance and quit quickly. Federal immigration officials began visiting the plant in May, estimating that about 700 workers were using false identification. Many employees were confronted and fired. Some left on their own. Over Labor Day, federal agents raided the plant and rounded up more than 120 illegal immigrants. http://www.columbusdispatch.com/nat...hp?story=229290

Hey look, a thousand Americans that needed a break are going to get it because they caught the illegal immigrants taking their jobs.

Obviously land mines and machine guns nests are
a joke and exageration hehe.

But in all seriousness I can't see how people want
to argue that it's wrong for a country to have complete
control and knowledge of who comes in... It just boggles
my mind how people think it's wrong...

==========

Cuba? That's a whole other can of worms. That too is taxing
our navy and coast guard's resources. But I'm sure there's
plenty of people here who would defend castro's regime and
policies to no end when his own people are risking thier lives
to get the hell out.
"You can take measure of a country by how many people want in,
and how many people want out"

==========

Someone questioned my statement that legal Hispanics are mostly
for strong immigration control:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=79818
"In several different surveys, pollsters found that many Hispanics
in Arizona continued a trend of voting in favor of antiillegal
immigration measures"

Don't have time to go find you links and polls that show a
national trend by legal hispanics for strict enforcement but
there's one example, and this is coming from a Hispanic too, me.

==========

Visas, that is one part of a broad strategy which includes a tight
border. Is it flawed? Yes. But This thread is about a border fence.
Tight border means they will have to use a legal system like visas.
It's not perfect but it's damn better than just coming in unannounced...
The visa system is another that needs reform and I'll leave those
details to the systems in place to deal with it. But I don't think
any country on this planet embraces the idea of undocumented people
streaming into their country...

==========

They are good people, no one is saying they're not good, hard working
people with strong family values and religious values. But it's not
fair us tax payers must support them with our social services.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC But in all seriousness I can't see how people want to argue that it's wrong for a country to have complete control and knowledge of who comes in... It just boggles my mind how people think it's wrong...

It's not a matter of being wrong: it's a matter of being impossible.

Also, considering the fact that spending money with the illegal immigrants is a concern, spending even more money with them (for something that probably will not be effective) doesn't seem to be a wiser solution.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC They are good people, no one is saying they're not good, hard working people with strong family values and religious values. But it's not fair us tax payers must support them with our social services.

In that case, it would be a more realistic solution to find ways to tax them, rather than looking for ways of protecting a three thousand kilometre long border

What the hell is wrong with a cheap fence? Of course it's
impossible to keep everyone out 100%. We know that. The current
control is a joke and that's the problem. We want to improve it
alittle. That's all.

People need to stop telling us not to waste our money yadayadayada.
A decent fence WILL go a long way to control the problem alittle
and that's all we want.

Tax them? As more stream in that will try not to be taxed... They're
illegals meaning they can be arrested and deported... They won't send
the government a check based on their undocumented income... We need
to stem the flow of illegals in, and I support giving the current
illegals already in a legal system to work, i.e. guest worker program
and someway to enter a path to real citizenship.

But the flow needs to be curtailed a tad. And a mediocre fence,
at a decent price is all we want and we're getting crap for it...

Your not making any sense. First you are talking about a cheap fence and then about a decent one. Decent and cheap don't belong together. You don't need more than some wire cutters to get trough a cheap fence anyway (maybe an axe? a wooden fence is also cheap) and even a concrete fence can be easily climbed if you really want to get over it (but then again a concrete fence is anything but cheap). Unless its really your intention to keep machine gun nests within viewing distance of each other and put some land mines in between people are going to get get trough before anyone arrives at the scene. All that money gone for nothing.

And of course a fence can also be used to keep people in as well as out. Remember that if in 50 years you wind up with an ultra conservative christian theocracy and want to get the hell out while you are still alive but cant because there is a wall and a couple of machine gun nests blocking your way.

quote:

Originally posted by Moongoose Your not making any sense. First you are talking about a cheap fence and then about a decent one. Decent and cheap don't belong together. You don't need more than some wire cutters to get trough a cheap fence anyway (maybe an axe? a wooden fence is also cheap) and even a concrete fence can be easily climbed if you really want to get over it (but then again a concrete fence is anything but cheap). Unless its really your intention to keep machine gun nests within viewing distance of each other and put some land mines in between people are going to get get trough before anyone arrives at the scene. All that money gone for nothing.

Ah I already said before it is impossible to keep everyone
out... And yes even a wire fence will have an impact on the
flow... An impact that will justify the cost... Wire fence
cheap compared to a concrete wall? Yes. Is it decent? Yes.

quote:

And of course a fence can also be used to keep people in as well as out. Remember that if in 50 years you wind up with an ultra conservative christian theocracy and want to get the hell out while you are still alive but cant because there is a wall and a couple of machine gun nests blocking your way.

Wow. You ever been here? Ever lived in the United States of America?
Obviously not if you think that's how we are and heading in that
direction...
The country is divided, liberals and atheists abound especially in
the media. Most urban centers are very liberal. The rural areas are
conservative and religious.
The country is becoming more liberal and most younger generations
are atheists. This has been going on for decades. I hate how foreigners
who have never been here think we're a bunch of religious conservative
cowboys. 90% of my friends don't even believe in god. And far from conservative.


Anyway, would a fence help stem the tide? Yes.
Is it possible to get in anyway? Yes.
Would it be cheap? Why do you ppl care, it's not your money.
Do we need tighter border control for homeland defense? Yes.
Does a country have the right to do as they please with their
border enforcement? Yes.

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