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Understanding compressor settings

I was reading "Production Mixing Mastering With Waves" and the author suggests the following settings for a dance song kick track:

Attack 20ms
Release 50 ms

The reasons given for each setting are as follows:

"What we are effectively doing by using a 20ms attack time, is allowing the initial 20ms of the kick sample to come through un-compressed before being pinned down by the C1. The C1 immediately acts on the signal after a 20ms delay and the rest of the kick sample is reduced in gain. This effectively makes the first 20ms of the kick louder, meaning it punches through that short duration and gives more attack.

A 50ms release time is used on the C1. 50ms is short enough so that the gain reduction on the compressor snaps back to 0db before the next strike of the kick drum. If the release is set too long, the compressor works very slowly on the signal and doesn't allow the next consecutive strike of the kick to come through with attack."

Now, when I was reading the "Dance Music Manual" by Rick Snoman, the author suggests faster settings for the attack, his suggestion is 1-5ms. What are your thoughts? What do you think is a more appropriate setting for the attack stage of the compressor for a trance kick?

When it comes to the release setting, doesn't 50ms seems a bit too fast?
In the first book I mentioned the dance track is at 136BPM, which means a kick will occur approximately every 440ms. Keeping this in mind, a hypothetical release setting of 200ms will achieve what the author is trying to accomplish, namely, have the compressor's gain reduction return to 0db by the time the next kick occurs. Why use a much faster setting of 50ms then?

I'm just trying to understand why these particular settings were chosen.

Hopefully someone here can give me a more detailed explanation.

Thanks!

Well... i would typically solo the kick, and start the attack at zero.. and slowly increase it.

at zero, the comp bites off the initial 'thwack'... but as i increase the value, i find that nice happy place where the thwack gets through, and the rest of the kick gets compressed.

opposite with the release... start with a large value.. and bring it in so the gain reduction gets back to zero before the next kick.

I think the 50 ms suggestion on the release is so in case you execute a kick roll or something, your kick times will decrease to 220ms, 110ms, etc...

You're not trying to get the compressor to cut off just in time for the next kick. The compressor is REDUCING your gain, so you want it to cut off as quickly as possible (i.e. as soon as the transient is over) if your aim is to maximize overall track gain.

the aim is to make the kick punchier silly diginuts.

setup an a/b in c1 and see which u like better.

its all about setting up an a/b with the gain adjusted to be the same with compressors.

Long releases don't make a kick punchier. In fact, compression of any kind doesn't make a kick punchier, if anything it makes one less punchy.

*Edit - I now see the word "punching" in the original quotation, but that's really horrible terminology, and the advice sucks anyway unless you're working with an acoustic bassdrum or some really muddy electronic one. Any decent kick will already be loudest during the first 20-50 ms, so trying to use a compressor to do the same thing is just going to kill the kick.

There is no general setting, and dance music is a very broad word which covers a hell of a lot of potential settings.

I had years of this crap when studying, where 'this setting is for this' and 'this fits with this', and have encountered it in so many studios its not even remotely funny.
Honestly, its all wank.

What is appropriate? It is completely subjective and open to individual interpretation. Whatever sounds right.
Use your ears to what sounds right for the instrument and more importantly fits in with the track you are trying to construct. Compression does not just change the dynamics, it changes the tone and timbre of a sound also and works as an effect as well as it does as a gain reduction tool. Turn the dials, and if something sounds good to you, then use it.

I would love to make a compressor with no numbers on- just 'more' and 'less' on each knob, then it might stop fucknuts preaching in books like it is some sort of exact science. In fact, I might modify one in my rack to do that

Learn the rules so you can break them.

quote:

Originally posted by Freak There is no general setting, and dance music is a very broad word which covers a hell of a lot of potential settings. I had years of this crap when studying, where 'this setting is for this' and 'this fits with this', and have encountered it in so many studios its not even remotely funny. Honestly, its all wank. What is appropriate? It is completely subjective and open to individual interpretation. Whatever sounds right. Use your ears to what sounds right for the instrument and more importantly fits in with the track you are trying to construct. Compression does not just change the dynamics, it changes the tone and timbre of a sound also and works as an effect as well as it does as a gain reduction tool. Turn the dials, and if something sounds good to you, then use it. I would love to make a compressor with no numbers on- just 'more' and 'less' on each knob, then it might stop fucknuts preaching in books like it is some sort of exact science. In fact, I might modify one in my rack to do that Learn the rules so you can break them.

this can be applied to so many of the questions out there....

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut compression of any kind doesn't make a kick punchier, if anything it makes one less punchy.

you are so so wrong

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Any decent kick will already be loudest during the first 20-50 ms, so trying to use a compressor to do the same thing is just going to kill the kick.

i think most big producers will agree its rare to use a kick without compressing it at all.. the punch in the kick is really important.

most samples you get are either raw from drum machines or drum kits (i.e. not enough dynamics for dance music) or off other records (i.e. already limited so lacking in dynamics)

if you think some people are using 9db or more gain reduction in limiting and compression on their masters, and the kick's the most prominant element, that means the kick they've used might have as much as 5-9db's of attack above the body of the sound - where a sampled kick is usually squashed right down

so it's actually quite rare you can even get hold of a kick or snare which doesn't require some degree of dynamics processing just to get it working properly

I just tweak my sampler to cut the kick off just after it hits the low end. That's all that such compression does. It doesn't make the kick more powerful as much as it makes it snappier. The effect, I'll admit is a nice one.

The real punch comes from the EQing.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja you are so so wrong i think most big producers will agree its rare to use a kick without compressing it at all.. the punch in the kick is really important. most samples you get are either raw from drum machines or drum kits (i.e. not enough dynamics for dance music) or off other records (i.e. already limited so lacking in dynamics)

I thought dynamics is exactly what you eliminate by compressing, anyone?

it can be both, you can use a compressor as an expander. if you had the attack at 0 youd be reducing dynamics. with a decent attack theres a moment before the compressor kicks in so its louder for the attack then rest if your threshold and ratio settings are right, so youve just increased the loudest point to softest point ratio of the kick, there by increasing dynamics.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja it can be both, you can use a compressor as an expander. if you had the attack at 0 youd be reducing dynamics. with a decent attack theres a moment before the compressor kicks in so its louder for the attack then rest if your threshold and ratio settings are right, so youve just increased the loudest point to softest point ratio of the kick, there by increasing dynamics.

I see, i didn't think about it that way, propably because i don't use the compressor for that purpose.

For mantaining or raising the level of the attack without raising the bass part of the kick i would usally resort to an equalizer.

you should.

it goes from

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Sorry for bursting in like this to the thread but I need to clear up something. I want to be sure that I know exectly how a compressor works. So... Tell me if I'm right and please correct me if I'm wrong.
Attack - the delay before the compressor starts to apply his other settings to the sound.
Release - the ammount of time, after the attack, till the compressor will stop reducing the kick's gain.
Now, about the 'Make Up, 'Gain', 'Threshold', 'Ratio' and etc' I'm not quite sure. Can you guys please explain 'which means what' and how does it apply on the sound as a chain (Attack -> to -> ? -> to -> Release and so on...).
Thanks.

Heh, well someone mentioned compression, I got set for a flame war Re your question 3rd signal, compressor settings dont really work in a signal chain as such... I guess it sorta goes like

input gain >> thresh >> ratio >> make up/ output gain

Input gain is basically similar to threshhold, their proportional so if you raise the input gain, raise the threshhold and vice versa. You dont usually find both on the one compressor. Ratio- ok this is the most complicated, this is how much the compressor will clamp the sound for a given signal, that is how "much" compression you get. A bit like a mix control is maybe the analogy? Maybe not? Make up and output gain, are again the same thing, if you have the thing compressed, your usually doing it to even out the transients so the track can be made louder on its main slider. Output gain just basically feeds more signal into the mixer to compensate for the volume it took off in clamping off the signal.

Do what sounds right, compression does make most sounds more punchy (I find it doesnt work on 808 or 909s and some other things). Dont worry about the release too much, attack is more important. The release will only start to apply once the signal has dipped down below the threshhold anyway, so its a bit irrelevant for drums as they're really transient. release is more relevant I understand for strings etc. A quick release I believe is better, but I'm not sure.

The way I learnt compression was on the ones with a picture of that they're F***King doing, its the only way you'll understand all their bloody knobs. Just get one like waves C1 or something and play with the settings and watch what happens to the picture, its not that hard!

quote:

Originally posted by 3rd Signal Sorry for bursting in like this to the thread but I need to clear up something. I want to be sure that I know exectly how a compressor works. So... Tell me if I'm right and please correct me if I'm wrong. Attack - the delay before the compressor starts to apply his other settings to the sound. Release - the ammount of time, after the attack, till the compressor will stop reducing the kick's gain. Now, about the 'Make Up, 'Gain', 'Threshold', 'Ratio' and etc' I'm not quite sure. Can you guys please explain 'which means what' and how does it apply on the sound as a chain (Attack -> to -> ? -> to -> Release and so on...). Thanks.

Attack- how quickly the compressor acts on the signal
release- how quickly it releases the signal
threshold- sets at what point the compressor starts to work.
ratio- how much compression you want. the higher the number the more severe the compression.
Make up gain- when you compress something, it can often reduce the signal level. Make up gain is there so you can boost the volume of the now compressed signal back up to what it was at the input.
Side chain/key input- enables you to trigger the compressor/gate with an external signal. (NOT just used for fucking bass and drums in house tracks- plenty of uses for it in all sorts of music)
Gate - shuts off the signal (think of the signal as a cow in a field- You shut the gate, no more cows can escape) depending ont he threshold and attack/release you set.

You can do some pretty nice tricks with compressors (not sure about software ones- rarely use them so don't know how set in stone the routing is tbh). Abuse the settings and get some crazy sounds- can get drums sounding tighter than a nuns crotch or sucking like a highly paid whore if you experiment a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Just get one like waves C1 or something and play with the settings and watch what happens to the picture, its not that hard!

I got C1, I love it.
Don't get me wrong though, I know how to compress, but I do it by ear. Now I want to know what means what since I'm not so sure.

@ Freak -
I didn't get the 'Gate' part. How does it effect the sound?

Thanks much.

quote:

Originally posted by 3rd Signal @ Freak - I didn't get the 'Gate' part. How does it effect the sound?

It stops it.
gate closed=no signal
gate open=signal

Most hardware comps have a gate built in

Yeh, I didnt think you were the sort of person to not understand compression Gate is something which you use when you have a noisy signal, it cuts out all signal under a certain level, its often thrown on the same plugin as compressors, but it actually does the opposite thing. Of course gate isnt just used for cutting out hum and noise, you can also use it to get a heavier, tighter guitar sound, tighter drums sounds, pluckyer pads, whatever, you get the picture. I didnt understand the metaphor about cows at all

Doh... lol.
So I gate compressor basicly stops all the the sound above the threshold from being heard?

-Edit-
I see, thanks for the explaination!
hmm, would love for a quick guide on that C1 Gate of someone got or can explain (how to make sounds tighter that is).

it stops all sound below the threshold from being heard. c1 gate comes with a PDF manual, so read it. to make drums tighters use a fast release and even faster attack and set threshold

quote:

Originally posted by CReddick opposite with the release... start with a large value.. and bring it in so the gain reduction gets back to zero before the next kick.

I do this the opposite way. I like to set my release to the shortest time possible and then increase it just until the pumping sound is gone. This gives me more volume and, dare i say, "punch" than doing it just until the gr gets back to zero.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalninja i think most big producers will agree its rare to use a kick without compressing it at all.. the punch in the kick is really important. most samples you get are either raw from drum machines or drum kits (i.e. not enough dynamics for dance music) or off other records (i.e. already limited so lacking in dynamics) if you think some people are using 9db or more gain reduction in limiting and compression on their masters, and the kick's the most prominant element, that means the kick they've used might have as much as 5-9db's of attack above the body of the sound - where a sampled kick is usually squashed right down so it's actually quite rare you can even get hold of a kick or snare which doesn't require some degree of dynamics processing just to get it working properly

Alright, seriously, retard hour is over now.

1. You aren't qualified to speak for most or any "big producers", so don't.

2. Compression limits dynamics, it does not add dynamics. Yes, you can use one as an expander, but that is completely irrelevant to anything said in this thread.

3. Very few kick samples used today come raw from a drum machine. I doubt very much if a single sample on any popular sample pack comes directly from a drum machine without processing. I know that you believe they're all sampled from other records, but I'll tell you again like so many others have told you, you're full of shit.

4. Nobody compresses or limits 9 dB out of a master track. That's insane, and would sound like utter shit. Even a kick doesn't get squashed that far, otherwise it will have a very long tail that sounds brutal, even in trance.

5. What could you possibly mean by the "body" of a sound in a kick? The entire sound is essentially a thump with a very quick falling amplitude envelope. Any other shape, and it's not really much of a kick now is it?

6. I never said that kicks, snares, or any other samples don't require processing or compression. Most of the time they do. I just said that compression has nothing to do with the "punchiness" of a kick, and it doesn't. As jex pointed out, that's done with EQ and specifically the falling pitch envelope on some element of the kick. Play your punchiest kicks a few times and you'll hear that pitch bend - it's got nothing to do with compression.

7. Given the shape of a kick, compression helps make the peak longer. This in effect makes it sound "bigger". That is the only really useful thing you can do to a kick with a compressor, and using a release that's equal to or greater than the length of the entire kick will almost completely negate this effect.

Are we done yet?

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3. Very few kick samples used today come raw from a drum machine. I doubt very much if a single sample on any popular sample pack comes directly from a drum machine without processing.

that's not what i meant, i'm talking about where they originated. lots of people have used raw drum samples processed.

quote:

5. What could you possibly mean by the "body" of a sound in a kick? The entire sound is essentially a thump with a very quick falling amplitude envelope. Any other shape, and it's not really much of a kick now is it?

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typical, weedy drum sound - great transient dynamics, but flattened body with most of the weight lost

the danger with compression alone is that it can work wonders on the attack transient, but suck energy out of the body of the sound - so use parallel compression use the first compressor like an expander, then compress, and you avoid this

Before Compression.

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After Compression.

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add compression with longish attack to emphasize attack transient a little more

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notice medium release, pull-off effect, and if you look at quite engineered bassdrums and snares, there's often quite complex dynamics like that

your right though eq is much more important for a nice punchy kick, punch is really around 80-100hz range i believe.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Alright, seriously, retard hour is over now. 1. You aren't qualified to speak for most or any "big producers", so don't. 2. Compression limits dynamics, it does not add dynamics. Yes, you can use one as an expander, but that is completely irrelevant to anything said in this thread. 3. Very few kick samples used today come raw from a drum machine. I doubt very much if a single sample on any popular sample pack comes directly from a drum machine without processing. I know that you believe they're all sampled from other records, but I'll tell you again like so many others have told you, you're full of shit. 4. Nobody compresses or limits 9 dB out of a master track. That's insane, and would sound like utter shit. Even a kick doesn't get squashed that far, otherwise it will have a very long tail that sounds brutal, even in trance. 5. What could you possibly mean by the "body" of a sound in a kick? The entire sound is essentially a thump with a very quick falling amplitude envelope. Any other shape, and it's not really much of a kick now is it? 6. I never said that kicks, snares, or any other samples don't require processing or compression. Most of the time they do. I just said that compression has nothing to do with the "punchiness" of a kick, and it doesn't. As jex pointed out, that's done with EQ and specifically the falling pitch envelope on some element of the kick. Play your punchiest kicks a few times and you'll hear that pitch bend - it's got nothing to do with compression. 7. Given the shape of a kick, compression helps make the peak longer. This in effect makes it sound "bigger". That is the only really useful thing you can do to a kick with a compressor, and using a release that's equal to or greater than the length of the entire kick will almost completely negate this effect. Are we done yet?

Diginut, I always think you have something intelligent to say, so don't take offence if I say that I don't agree AT ALL with point 7! I mostly agree with the rest of what your saying, but the whole idea with setting the attack high on a kick, is to allow the initial transient through then clamp down and cut the volume right back, giving you a *shorter* peak time, not a longer one. Of course, it can also be used to boost the tail of the kick to make it sound bigger, but this depends on the settings.

In short, a compressor can be used to do one of two things;

1/ by having a short attack, it can make the kick's peak longer, giving a stronger reverb tail or decay.

2/ by giving a long attack, can emphasise the attack of the kick by making it louder than the decay, which gets compressed.

Basically, YOU CAN DO EITHER!
I personally avoid screwing round with kicks as much as possible, eq is my friend

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